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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 9, 2008 13:56:10 GMT -5
Read it again Arxileas and you'll see the new thing!
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 9, 2008 14:50:27 GMT -5
Read it again Arxileas and you'll see the new thing! I did, I mean how is a political theorist named Joseph S. Roucek going to help your cause here ? What you’re missing here is hard core facts from data NOT from political theorists that write for Political and Social Science purposes “communists do this”. Maybe you should check out your sources more carefully next time teuta, sure he was a theorists admired by someone at Jstor, a theorists is at best seen as that and is not qualified for this issue. Hard core data we can rely on, I am refering to is, Treaties, court rulings, U.N protocols, U.N and other Goverment pupolation registery, archaeological evidences, famous historians, famous book unbiased authors “sharing their travels with us, a long time ago and is reliable as evidence of an eye witness” who are unbiased. Just to give you an idea, We Greeks have provided all this. Reading stuff from political theorists such as Joseph S. Roucek , would be like reading political theories from Dick Cheney 40 years from now. Yeah like we can rely on this dude. Get the idea ? Now excuse me have no more time for Albania propagandas. I thought you could do better then Melty “I was wrong” Excuse my typos am going back to bed it is a late Sunday, after a nice night of Olympics viewing on television. .
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 15:50:48 GMT -5
All you have brought is 1. An online webpage 2. One book source based off of*general WWI book. 3. A Greek derived demographic source 4. One map.... There are no UN derived population registries there... And you have yet to debate my argument. Here is a very old discussion between Bibleriot and Sphata so you can perhaps learn a little. p100.ezboard.com/Epirus/fbalkansfrm36.showMessage?topicID=49.topicI have the same book he has but I dont have a working scanner anyone, he has the quotes I would have posted. The book can be found online if you wish to buy it and its probably the most used book on the issue: Badlands/BorderlandsPS: Kastorianos, if you are looking, is that page bringing back any memories.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Aug 9, 2008 15:55:27 GMT -5
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 9, 2008 16:27:57 GMT -5
Arxileas, Your words hurt me. I am not a propagandist and I don't think to have been. Your posts with South Albania stand on: 1. That area is Greek 2. Greeks were oppressed in Albania
While my posts have always revealed that Epir in antiquity was influenced from both cultures because the inhabitants were of both cultures. As today, Greeks in South Albania are not oppressed.
So...I don't see myself as a propagandist.
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SuperAlbanian
Amicus
King of Gays
20%
CANARIS IS THE REAL KING OF GAYS! OH WAIT! HES THE QUEEN OF GAYS!!!!
Posts: 1,283
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Post by SuperAlbanian on Aug 10, 2008 16:14:40 GMT -5
They all speak Albanian, Theyre greek wannabe Albanians... No chance South Albania will ever be Greek. Sorry.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Aug 10, 2008 17:03:59 GMT -5
The Epirotes are bilingual
This aeria is Hellenic from Ancient times and Autonomous since 1914.
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SuperAlbanian
Amicus
King of Gays
20%
CANARIS IS THE REAL KING OF GAYS! OH WAIT! HES THE QUEEN OF GAYS!!!!
Posts: 1,283
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Post by SuperAlbanian on Aug 10, 2008 19:27:14 GMT -5
Yes, their mother tongue is Albanian, Thats the fact. Most Albanians are bilingual... In Kosovo English and Serbian are widely known, Im guessing in FYROM they speak a "weird" Serbo Bulgarian language and in Albania Greek and Italian is widely known. It does not mean they are Greek.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Aug 10, 2008 23:30:20 GMT -5
Large Greek Ethnic minority within Albanian border in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 10, 2008 23:32:21 GMT -5
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Post by kartadolofonos on Aug 10, 2008 23:41:15 GMT -5
Ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout Albania
Northern Epirus is described as a belt of land 90 km at its broadest, stretching northeasterly direction from the coast north of Corfu to the lakes of Prespa and Ochrid. It includes the port of Agioi Sarande and the important towns of Agirokastro, Koritsa and Himara. Ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names.
The Enver Hoxha regime in Albania (1946-1991) was the most vicious and inhuman of all the communist dictatorships in Europe. It is no exaggeration to compare the brutal, paranoid isolationism of Stalinist Albania with North Korea, and to assert that the Hoxha regime targetted the Greek minority in particular, subjecting it, among other things, to internal deportation and a programme of forced Albanianisation, which severely punished any expression of Greek identity. Thus many of The Northern Epirotes or Albanian immigrants who come to Greece not only spoke little Greek (Albanian was their first language) and knew nothing of their religion, many had even been deprived of their Greek names. Those in Greece were in the process of learning Greek, getting baptised and changing their Albanian names again to Greek ones.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 11, 2008 4:58:06 GMT -5
All you have brought is 1. An online webpage 2. One book source based off of*general WWI book. 3. A Greek derived demographic source 4. One map.... There are no UN derived population registries there... And you have yet to debate my argument. Here is a very old discussion between Bibleriot and Sphata so you can perhaps learn a little. p100.ezboard.com/Epirus/fbalkansfrm36.showMessage?topicID=49.topicI have the same book he has but I dont have a working scanner anyone, he has the quotes I would have posted. The book can be found online if you wish to buy it and its probably the most used book on the issue: Badlands/BorderlandsPS: Kastorianos, if you are looking, is that page bringing back any memories. Melty I gave you sources from reputable people and many others which the world Academia would accept without any hesitation, as for the U.N population registries that was a joke and was to give you the Albs an idea what evidence to bring on apart from political theorists or maybe soon you’ll be bringing in the Buddhist monks into the debate I mean you people kinda are scary when it comes to citing sources. No one in their right minds would even question the Greekness of the Epirotes, only the Albanians. All you have done is to try and derail with “Slogans” hey over here look at the old forum we’ve been through it before, well I saw and saw nothing of worthy. Not only that the topic was spammed so as a result it had to be locked enough time for the Admins to see what the contents of the spammer contained. Now the topic had to be cleaned from general chit chat and personal insults, sorry folks I did say it twice before they would be removed. Third time am saying it now stay on topic and keep it clean please. All the removed posts have been moved here; illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=forumbarbarum&thread=6435&page=1
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 11, 2008 4:59:23 GMT -5
Arxileas, Your words hurt me. I am not a propagandist and I don't think to have been. Your posts with South Albania stand on: 1. That area is Greek 2. Greeks were oppressed in Albania While my posts have always revealed that Epir in antiquity was influenced from both cultures because the inhabitants were of both cultures. As today, Greeks in South Albania are not oppressed. So...I don't see myself as a propagandist. I didn't call you a propagandist directly, and wasn’t my intention if seemed that way.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 11, 2008 5:02:32 GMT -5
Yes, their mother tongue is Albanian, Thats the fact. Most Albanians are bilingual... In Kosovo English and Serbian are widely known, Im guessing in FYROM they speak a "weird" Serbo Bulgarian language and in Albania Greek and Italian is widely known. It does not mean they are Greek. Now, was ANY of non-Greek tribes ever lived in Epirus called by ANYONE as "ethnic" Epirotan ? If yes, then we shall consider the term Epirotan as geographic marker, if not then Epirotans were / are Greek.
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 11, 2008 5:07:01 GMT -5
1. I asked for you to stop arguing through quotes since they dont give context. 2. You have posted 1 scholarly source from a WWI book the others were random internet webpages that have been posted here several times before(if you consider the "3 liberations" a reputable source then you must be out of your mind). 3. I can tell that you have not yet even read a single thing of what I brought...
because I have done this debate a million times before and I dont wish to bring back older info. Its much easier for you to look back on older debates that I have done, which you have yet to read, so we can build off of this.
Thats quite an insult for a grease monkey. Next semester ill be studying at Oxford University, Arxhi, so please do tell what university you have attended or are attending where you received the nerve to try and belittle me? Please do tell.... I have yet to actually belittle you. All I have done is shown things that were posted in the past with the expectation that you could give back a reply so we can discuss, since thats where the real learning comes, but you continually find new ways to try and ignore it.
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 11, 2008 5:18:45 GMT -5
1 . I asked for you to stop arguing through quotes since they dont give context. 2. You have posted 1 scholarly source from a WWI book the others were random internet webpages that have been posted here several times before(if you consider the "3 liberations" a reputable source then you must be out of your mind). 3. I can tell that you have not yet even read a single thing of what I brought...Melty tell me what is your argument ? That the Epirotes are not Greek, they are the decendants of the Illyrians etc; ? What's wrong with new debates ? Originaly I never had this in mind as a debate, BUT to show the plight of the Greek Epirotes. How do we Greeks feel every time we discuss about our history only to have certain users insulting us and our ancestors time after time. I can't remember a time being on here where we Greeks could actually discuss about our history freely without you guy's butting in with insults. So Melty tell me what is your argument ? That the Epirotes are not Greek, or that they are the decendants of the Illyrians etc; ? Do you understand the issue is still pending ? .
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 13, 2008 22:11:59 GMT -5
The Question of Northern Epirus at the Peace Conference - Page 73 by Nicholas J. Cassavetes - Eastern question (Balkan) - 1919
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Post by Teuta1975 on Aug 13, 2008 22:17:30 GMT -5
Arxileas, you gave us a list of Grekophone and Albaphone and according to it, Albanophone were less in number than Grekophone....while just somewhere above was written (and everybody knows) that the population in that area is bilingual.... Shouldn't it be only Greek if it were all Greek? PS: lol...see the difference: I see on the table: Greeks, Muslums, Grekophone, Albaphone, Vlahophone....so,,,everything except Albanians as identity! Greeks vs: Muslums...but Albaphones??? Where are Albanians?? Or the numbers indicated Albanian Orthodoxes as Greeks?
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Post by Arxileas on Aug 13, 2008 22:37:39 GMT -5
Arxileas,
you gave us a list of Grekophone and Albaphone and according to it, Albanophone were less in number than Grekophone....while just somewhere above was written (and everybody knows) that the population in that area is bilingual....
Shouldn't it be only Greek if it were all Greek?
PS: lol...see the difference:
I see on the table: Greeks, Muslums, Grekophone, Albaphone, Vlahophone....so,,,everything except Albanians as identity!
Greeks vs: Muslums...but Albaphones??? Where are Albanians?? Or the numbers indicated Albanian Orthodoxes as Greeks? What if the "Albanian Orthodox" considered themselves as Greeks and saw the "Mussulman’s" as foreign ? Everything indicates that this was the case and nothing indicates otherwise... And wanted union with Greece, not with Albania...besides it were the Turks who were classifying them as such. Look up at “by the Turkish government under Greeks” most likely by the populations choice. Go and figure these were facts are then.
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Post by albquietman on Aug 13, 2008 22:40:47 GMT -5
Arxileas, I don't think you're trying to play an innocent kid. Your history that yo discuss here includes half of our country not as our country, but yours, so I don't think you expect us to say nothing. Look at the sources you bring here. The book you brought here, the scanned pages above is a book published for the greeks of America in 1919, and the reason was the annexation of South Albania. The author is a greek and he was a director of the Pan-Epirotic Union of America at that time...so this source might be good for you, but not for us. Here is the link to prove it: www.archive.org/stream/questionofnorthe00cassuoft
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