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Post by depletedreasons on Jul 15, 2008 2:57:10 GMT -5
Skopje Asks for Macedonian Rights in Greece14 July 2008 Skopje Skopje has sent a letter to Athens asking for the recognition of the Macedonian minority in Greece and the return of property to Macedonian refugees who were forced to flee. In the letter signed by Macedonia’s Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski addressed to his Greek counterpart Costas Karamanlis, Gruevski refers to the exodus of Macedonians who fled northern Greece during the 1946-1949 Greek Civil War. Gruevski urged Athens to allow them to acquire the property they left behind in Greece. Some historians estimate that more than 100,000 ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece fled the country as the war between the right-wing monarchist government and the Democratic Army of Greece, a branch of the Communist party, took hold. “Large parts of these people, most of them ethnic Macedonians born in Greece, came to live in the then Socialist Yugoslavia or in parts of today’s Republic of Macedonia to be exact,” Gruevski writes. “They have stayed here ever since, probably influenced by the fact that they spoke the same language and felt as part of the same people, the Macedonians.” Athens does not recognise those who fled as Macedonians and refuses to issue citizenship to them or to their descendants. In addition Gruevski urged Athens to recognise the existence of the Macedonian minority on its territory and to grant them the right to education in their own language as well as the right to foster their culture and traditions. In 1998 the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg ruled that Greece contravened the European Human Rights convention with its refusal to allow the opening of a Macedonian cultural centre in the northern town of Florina. Greek courts still refuse to register the centre, Rainbow - the party led by the unrecognised Macedonian minority in Greece, told media. However Athens claims that only several hundred people in Greece support the position of the party and that they can not be called a minority. “We all know that a political will is needed to solve these problems. I believe that you will have that will as a democratic country and a member state of the European Union and NATO,” Gruevski writes. A solution to these problems would “enable the creation of a better future for the both people,” Gruevski added, arguing that when it comes to human and minority rights and the protection of private property, a strict following of international standards is essential. Relations between the two countries hit a new low in April when Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO accession saying the country should change its name first. Greece argues that Macedonia’s name might imply territorial claims towards its own northern province with the same name. www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/11794/
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 15, 2008 3:25:00 GMT -5
^ A none existant issue as there is no such thing as a Macedonian ethnicity. And the Greek Macedonians message to them is loud and clear. That we are free and proud to be Greek Macedonians more then 2.5 million of us. Refugees ? I don't think so, more like war criminals and traitors and that is the price for treason. Most fled and abducted 28,000 children along the way out.
If they wish to continue with this, then we shall see who will be compensating whom .
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Post by terroreign on Jul 15, 2008 4:51:26 GMT -5
lmao 28,000 children huh
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 15, 2008 4:59:23 GMT -5
What's funny ? Karta has already posted facts and sources to actual resolutions regarding this matter which proves their crimes are well known and documented by the U.N. See for your self. Here are some more links for those interested in the greek civil war which led to communists on the slav side who tried to take macedonia from us and abducted greek children, www.topix.com/forum/world/macedonia/TDUSH7RU3PI673GEBReferences: 1)Child Gathering Vol I, The Biggest Crime, Georgios Manoukas, 1961 2)Child Gathering Vol II, Education and Teaching of the kidnapped Greek children, Georgios Manoukas, 1967 Georgios Manoukas was the General Inspector of "Child Gathering" and a former member of KKE (Greek communist Party). He returned in Greece in 1961, under a general amnesty. The author, Manoukas, examines Comitern intentions behind its policy with respect to the abduction of Greek children and concludes that from the beginning of the Yugoslav government (Tito) falsified the numbers of these children, integrated them into the population of the Federative Republic of Macedonia, and into the new “Macedonian” culture. I will focus on the parts of his book that mention the connection between Eastern Block Communists and the Slavophone element that fled from Greek Macedonia. Fact1 Names of the Slavs involved in the Children abductions: One of the 5 member council during the Children abduction era was the Slavomacedonian Sikavitsas. This person was responsible for the Slavophone children. In the so-called Mountain Government (KKE) were two Slavophone “ministers”. Their names were Metrovsky and Stavro Kocev. These Slavophones paid many visits to the places where the children were with their objective being the elimination of the Greek language used by the children and their Greek concsiousness. Their lectures were comprised of terms such as "Macedonian autonomy", Greece being a creation of the Big Powers, Slavic Macedonians being the only descendants of the ancients, freedom for "occupied Aegean Macedonia" etc, much like the propaganda the FYROMIANS spread even today. Fact 2 FYROM propaganda claims all the children were Slavphones. Of course this is a lie. Chapter VII, page 26 mentions the exact numbers and the places that the Greek children were taken to: 18.500 went to Bulgaria (17 camps), Romania (11 camps), Hungary (11 camps), Czechoslovakia (18 camps), Poland (3 camps), East Germany and Albania ( 5 camps), 9.500 went in Yugoslavia (FSR of Macedonia)(15 camps). The numbers and the names of the children are recorded by the Red Cross. Fact 3 United Nations ResolutionsOn November 17, 1948(193), and in November 1949 (288) the UN General assembly passed two resolutions condemning the abduction of the Greek children, demanding their return. These and all subsequent UN resolutions were never honoured. From 1950 to 1952 only 684 children were permitted to return to Greece and only through the pressure of the Red Cross. By 1963, around 4000 children were repatriated. Of those who did not return many died of illness, some escaped to Germany and others have since returned or have yet to return. Conclusion The FYROM government refuses to even discuss the issue, being quite aware of the implications (legal and humanitarian) and in an effort to cover up for the perpetrators of this crime, well known FYROMIAN propagandists and ideaologues. I recommend that anyone interested in finding out more about this dark period of modern Greek history and the crime perpetrated against the Greek people by the Slavophone Communists - Slav Macedonists reads the book, all 600 pages. In any further negotiations with FYROM on bilateral relations, the Greek Government will demand justice for the criminals involved and a just compensation for the victims and their families. heres another link on the civil war... www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103467a lot of the DSE by the way were slavs from skojpe sent by Tito and designed to help pave the way for a communist victory so they could take macedonia by force. These days the same skops say they are all "refugees" and claim macedonia form us calling it occupied aegean macedonia. They ignore the fact macedonia and egean are greek words and regions asince time immemorial! illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=hellasgreece&action=display&thread=9245&page=2
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 15, 2008 5:01:42 GMT -5
Now Fyrom has nothing to back their claims only websites of alledged refugees, we all know this isn't the case only pure propagandas by Fyrom. A Macedonian ethnicity is as fake as Pamela Andersons tit's...
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Post by terroreign on Jul 15, 2008 5:10:49 GMT -5
"Documented by the UN", oh really? And so why do I only see links to obscure forums? No real links by professional authors on this subject?
Red Cross too? Oh jeez, c'mon man who are you kidding there is absolutely no proof 25,000 greek children were kidnapped by Slavo-Macedonians.
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 15, 2008 5:26:11 GMT -5
^ Oh cut the childish games, off to bed you go.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jul 15, 2008 19:09:05 GMT -5
To FYROM's Provocation Athens' Stern Response Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis respond to the Gruevski letter [glow=red,2,300] The extreme nationalism seeds winds and repentance storms[/glow] Ï áêñáßïò åèíéêéóìüò óðÝñíåé áíÝìïõò êáé èåñßæåé èýåëëåò, Þôáí ôï óáöÝò ìÞíõìá ôçò ÕÐÅÎ Íôüñáò ÌðáêïãéÜííç ãéá ôçí åðéóôïëÞ ÃêñïõÝöóêéThe Greek government and opposition parties strongly reacted to the provocative letter FYROM Prime Minister Nikolas Gruevski sent to Greek Premier Kostas Karamanlis. The letter rose minority issues in Greece. Government spokesman Theodoros Roussopoulos stressed that Greece would not leave Skopje’s provocation go unnoticed, while Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis underlined that the FYROM head of government was consciously undermining the talks. The Government is expected to respond to the Gruevski letter within the week,confirmed Tuesday Government spokesman Theodoros Roussopoulos Skops want recognition of the Pseudo
Macedonian minority in
Propaganda source of Skops
Greece www.florina.org/
Albania www.macedoniansinalbania.org/
Bulgaria www.omoilindenpirin.org/
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Post by depletedreasons on Jul 16, 2008 12:59:18 GMT -5
^ Oh cut the childish games, off to bed you go. Terro has a point, you have reliable sources?
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 17, 2008 3:31:22 GMT -5
Janny I have posted U.N resolutions, I posted above a day ago. First let's look at Time magazine recording these facts on child abductions ; www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,811653-1,00.html We also have a book writen by Georgios Manoukas (Vol II) that was the General Inspector of "Greek children Gathering" and a former member of Greek communist Party. Fact 3 United Nations Resolutions
On November 17, 1948(193), and in November 1949 (288) the UN General assembly passed two resolutions condemning the abduction of the Greek children, demanding their return.Let's look at resolution 1948 (193) 193 (III) 27 November 1948 THREATS TO THE POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF GREECEProof they were trying to rip sovereign territory from Greece these criminal communists who fled from prosecution so thus refugee status is false and a lie. Found here; www.un.org/documents/ga/res/3/ares3.htmAnd U.N resolution 1949 (288) 288 (IV) 18 November 1949 THREATS TO THE POLITICAL INDEPENDENCE AND TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF GREECE
Found here. www.un.org/documents/ga/res/4/ares4.htmTreason, war criminals and traitorship isn't forgivable even by Turkey, why should they be excused ?
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 17, 2008 3:40:39 GMT -5
Now if these refugees did exist, shouldn’t there be some United nations documents or any other form of digital media covering this some where ?
Let’s be realistic now, real refugees are the Greek Cyprians and Greeks from Anatolia forced out from Turkey.....By the Turkish state.
And not to mention from Thaki (Thrace)....
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Post by depletedreasons on Jul 17, 2008 3:50:42 GMT -5
Now if these refugees did exist, shouldn’t there be some United nations documents or any other form of digital media covering this some where ? Let’s be realistic now, real refugees are the Greek Cyprians and Greeks from Anatolia forced out from Turkey.....By the Turkish state. And not to mention from Thaki (Thrace).... . I have some friends whose forefathers were the Muslim Greeks forced to flee from Crete in the 19th Century. Such change of population was something that the emerging Greeks nationalism initiated, and you know that it ended with a population exchange agreement in 1920s.
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 17, 2008 3:58:42 GMT -5
I have some friends whose forefathers were the Muslim Greeks forced to flee from Crete in the 19th Century. Unproven and news to me "not intended to insult you" It is news to me, show me some documented prove. True we did have population exchanges, but care to explain what happened to some of my relatives and many other Greeks who came out of "current Turkish Thrace part" as orphans 3 to 5 years old ? They came alone as children ......Their Parents were never seen again. How did this happen ? .
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Post by depletedreasons on Jul 17, 2008 5:24:43 GMT -5
Unproven and news to me "not intended to insult you" It is news to me, show me some documented prove. From the summer of 1896 until the end of hostilities in 1898 the Cretan Muslims remained under siege in the four coastal cities and there was some ethnic cleansing in the eastern end of the island. Their pleas for help from the western powers were consistently ignored. When Ottoman rule ended, about half the remaining Cretan Muslim population left immediately and the Muslims dropped from 25-30% of the Cretan population to around a ninth of it. Subsequent waves of emigration followed as the island was united by stages with Greece. Even in Turkey however the descendants of this population continue to speak a form of Cretan Greek patois. A new Cretan insurrection in 1897 led to Turkey declaring war on Greece and defeating it. However, the Great Powers (Britain, France, Italy and Russia) decided that Turkey could no longer maintain control and intervened.www.moshonas.com/modern_crete.htmlAfter having forcefully emigrated from Caucasus in mid 19th Century, My father family lived in Serres for some decades, but then they were forced to emigrate to Turkey after the Balkan War. My mother's side were the emigrants from Dagestan and Crimea. Many of my relatives lost theirs in Caucasus, in Macedonia and during the chaos of emigration. How did this happen?
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Jul 17, 2008 9:52:56 GMT -5
Skopje Asks for Macedonian Rights in Greeceoops ....there it is ...
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jul 17, 2008 11:47:27 GMT -5
oops there is an ERROR
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
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Post by rex362 on Jul 17, 2008 13:43:23 GMT -5
oops there is an ERROR yes...your correct ...there is an error .... the error is that many of todays Greeks don't realize that many Northern Greeks that wave Greek flags today are grandchildren of people that spoke slavic at home ....and also other languages as well.....(kupton? )
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Post by Kassandros on Jul 17, 2008 14:23:48 GMT -5
Also many Greeks in the future will still hold Greek flags and they will not speak Greek.. like the 3rd or 4th or 5th generation Greek-Americans. Languange is not such a problem for us. We dont pay so much attention. The consious is what it counts.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jul 17, 2008 14:41:27 GMT -5
The conscious is what it counts.so they could be faking it then .... ...we Albs go by blood no matter what language or the necessity of a national conscious is used ... we don't offer a " sign up to be Albanian..... 6 week trial offer" thingy... we respect what you are by blood ... not who/what somebody want to be today ---->bcs thats a sign of a person with 5 faces ....no ?.
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Post by Kassandros on Jul 17, 2008 15:39:39 GMT -5
Thats our difference in culture. That is why you pay too much attention to Arvanites because of some language similarities and we dont.
We have tottal different way of thinking. Hellenism is not just blood or language. Is something huge that cannot be determined by such minor prerequists.
We care less if someone speaks perfect Greek and he was born by Greek family. That does not make him more part of Hellenism from a barbarian that loves Hellenism and wants to be part of it. The ones that embraces Hellenism... is automaticaly Greek for as long as he feels part of it. If he stops... bye bye. Back to barbarians...
Alexander the Great treated Persians who embraced Hellenism as Greeks.
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