Arlin
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Posts: 44
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Post by Arlin on Mar 26, 2008 16:48:22 GMT -5
Then why is that Arvanites identify with Greeks? Do you think it may have to do with the Ottoman millet system which ultimately aligned Arvanites and Greeks together ethnically, religiously and culturally and the Albanians in the north aligned with Turks ethnically, religiously, and culturally. Who one identifies with is a function of socio-economics: as the muslim-tax in Albania proved during the Ottoman empire. If you are going to discriminate, you won't get a straight answer. Aligned? They didn't. That's how the ottoman empire worked, dividing people by any means possible and then shuffling forced-boy soldiers from one area to the other instigating hate. Unifying people meant having to give them more autonomy. This is why Greeks survived the Turks better. In the times of the ottoman invasion there was no real unified state neither in Albania nor in Greece. Albania was run in small principalities (through noble families) and Greece still had strong city state governing. However, your city states were stronger then our principates - hence you were afforded much more autonomy - one of the reasons your religion survived better. Albanians weren't morally weak, they were politically not ready for war as we never had a war culture.... Kanaris is right about this, I consider the Albanian ancient worrier stuff to be utter crap too... Ethnicity? I think you must mean religion. Again, no real Turks settled in our lands. It was mostly kept under control from the military. (The only few turks you will ever find are in Macedonia and are very distinct from us - ie. they all speak turkce). Hence other then their religion forced onto us, from where would we have borrowed their culture? If that were the case, you would have turks throughout northern Greece etc... After all, an entire turkish population doesn't just tiptoe across lands to set up satellite colonies... I don't think you're being disrespectful, but you just have the facts wrong. No Christians left in Albania? That would be my entire family and at least half of my neighborhood there. (You conducted a census or something?) You might not understand how two religions might coexist because until recently you lived in a very homogenous society. You again assume that Christians would preferentially (over muslims) leave Albania for Greece because they were being oppressed? Actually, during communist rule it was muslims who were much much more oppressed and stigmatized. That is why even today muslims in Albania are of a lower socio-economic status vs. the christians. THIS is what contributes to your perception that "Christian Albanians are different then the Muslim ones". Besides where did you get such an observation, certainly not based on facts. I don’t see the differences you are referring to… O.O? If we were indeed so different culturally and not just religiously, how could we coexist the way we do today? My next door neighbor is muslim (of the mosque going type), so was half my high school class… Ironically the Orthodox Church in Tirana is on the same street, 50m down from the Catholic one. And 100m up this street is a Mosque… I don’t know what you base this cultural similarity of Albanians with Turks. There is as much similarity between Turks and us as there is between Turks, Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia and yes… even Greece. Very little indeed.. Your entire reasoning is based on the assumption that religion dictates ethnicity thus for you, there can be no division. In the 21st century this just isn’t true because we theoretically have overcome those conditions where people needed to be so unified in the Thomas Hobbes way - our life is not for the sole purpose of survival. Religion does not dictate ethnicity. At present day, whatever artificial cultural division imposed to us by the turks in the 17th century has evaporated.... In an age where ideas not violence dictate law, you have the freedom to believe in a religion based on the message it professes WITHOUT the fear that you will loose your ethnicity. Example: Are you only culturally Greek because you are orthodox Christian? Or to draw the Albanian comparison where the religious experience is condensed to simply your given name: Are you only culturally Greek because you have a Greek name? If you had a different name/religion would you not be Greek? You know, you should challenge your teachings a bit more rather then parrot them back. In the modern day an opinion not based on facts is as good as a non-opinion, or even worse: self-rationalization of bias/bigotry. And that just looses you all credibility.
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 18:04:33 GMT -5
"In the modern day an opinion not based on facts is as good as a non-opinion, or even worse: self-rationalization of bias/bigotry. And that just looses you all credibility."
No, I just look at the facts and then I am able to draw logical conclusions. That is called higher order thinking. Much of what we read about history is just someones interpretation about something that someone else wrote and so on it continues to present day. I am sorry, but I strongly believe that the Ottoman millet system greatly affected Ottoman subjects and their ethnicity because it DICTATED 100 % WHO THEY WERE GOING TO MARRY.
I am not looking at this through a modern spectacle. I am looking at this through the eyes of an Ottoman subject. Ethnicity came second to your religious identity. Christians of different ethnicities married amongst each other while at the same time Muslims of different ethnicities married amongst each other. What makes you think Albanians are special and should be excluded from this scenario?
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Arlin
New Member
Posts: 44
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Post by Arlin on Mar 26, 2008 18:18:07 GMT -5
I am not looking at this through a modern spectacle. I am looking at this through the eyes of an Ottoman subject. Ethnicity came second to your religious identity. Christians of different ethnicities married amongst each other while at the same time Muslims of different ethnicities married amongst each other. What makes you think Albanians are special and should be excluded from this scenario? What facts? That there are no Christians in Albania, that we look different then the rest of the Ballkans? Then you are looking at the wrong facts. Convenient to exclude the more pertinent questions. Besides your Ottoman subject argument is irrelevant. You state that you believe Albanians have a deeply rooted division among them, which EVOLVED AND PERSISTED UNTIL TODAY. Well this is not true. The division today does not exist, Christians and muslims intermarry... even within my Christian family. So what's your point really... Ethnicity comes second to your religion? Since you agree they can be decoupled today, what makes you think somewhere sometime in history they couldn't? Again, answer my question:
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 19:04:45 GMT -5
"""""""""""Besides your Ottoman subject argument is irrelevant. You state that you believe Albanians have a deeply rooted division among them, which EVOLVED AND PERSISTED UNTIL TODAY. Well this is not true. The division today does not exist, Christians and muslims intermarry... even within my Christian family. So what's your point really...""""""""""
Well if I was going to use the logic of most of the Albanians in these boards that divide truly does exist because most Albanians believe the Arvanites are Albanians. Well if I was going to use the same logic wouldn't that count as a religious and an ethnic divide considering that those Arvanites were part of the Christian millet and considered themselves Greeks in the past and present. Albanians, in general either need to accept either that the Arvanites are and were Greeks......
or
Albanians were and are deeply divided among religion and ethnicity so badly to the extent that the Arvanites refuse to accept their own Albanian heritage. So which one is it?
""""""You again assume that Christians would preferentially (over muslims) leave Albania for Greece because they were being oppressed? Actually, during communist rule it was muslims who were much much more oppressed and stigmatized. That is why even today muslims in Albania are of a lower socio-economic status vs. the christians. THIS is what contributes to your perception that "Christian Albanians are different then the Muslim ones". Besides where did you get such an observation, certainly not based on facts. I don’t see the differences you are referring to… O.O? If we were indeed so different culturally and not just religiously, how could we coexist the way we do today? My next door neighbor is muslim (of the mosque going type), so was half my high school class… Ironically the Orthodox Church in Tirana is on the same street, 50m down from the Catholic one. And 100m up this street is a Mosque… I don’t know what you base this cultural similarity of Albanians with Turks. There is as much similarity between Turks and us as there is between Turks, Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia and yes… even Greece. Very little indeed.."""""""""
You misunderstand me.... I am using Albanian logic. I do not think Albanian Christians left for Greece. The scenario I am proposing goes like this; Using Albanian logic it is safe to say that their are deep religious divides amongst Albanians if you believe that the Arvanites are Albanians. They hate Albanians in every way possible. They are of a different religion, yet they speak a dialect of Albanian, so using your logic they are either Greeks or their is a huge religious divide amongst Albanians religiously and ethnically.
Do you understand what I am saying? You have to pick one or the either, because it can't be both. Also if you feel that someones religion does not dictate someones ethnicity why do you feel that someones language dictates their ethnicity?
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 19:06:34 GMT -5
I mean no disrespect at all. I think it is actually ridiculous that I get cursed at for starting this type of topic. These kind of topics help us to better understand who we are, where we came from, where we are going and so on.
"The unexamined life is not worth living." Socrates
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 19:11:49 GMT -5
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Post by Arxileas on Mar 26, 2008 19:45:57 GMT -5
I cannot understand why the issue of Arvanites existing in Greece for more than 200 years in the south and 100 years in the north is used from some members of the forum as a tool to increase or create tension between the 2 countries.
What is the problem with Arvanites ? Their ancestors moved to the south in middle age seeking for a better life. At a time when religion was more important than nation or language “1400-1900”, being Christian Orthodox they joined the Christian Orthodox Greeks and the Christian Orthodox Vlachs in a common revolt against the Muslim Ottoman Empire that suppressed all of them.
Since the indepentent state that came out from this revolt was concidered from Europe as the succesor of the ancient Greek glory and history, and since at that time the language the most respectful and with a huge heritage in written works and grammar was greek, what most logical for them to accept the domination of greek culture, language and heritage for the state where they belonged ?
While at the same time there was no discrimination at all as some have stated, they were participating at all levels of administration "even some of the first prime-ministers of the independent state were Arvanites, and the first regulation code of the Greek navy was written in Arvanite language so that the majority of the marines who were Arvanites could understand it".
They accepted Hellenism NO ONE forced them to, they are Greeks and we are proud of them as they are proud to be Greeks.
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Post by atlantis on Mar 26, 2008 20:23:30 GMT -5
I cannot understand why the issue of Arvanites existing in Greece for more than 200 years in the south and 100 years in the north is used from some members of the forum as a tool to increase or create tension between the 2 countries. They accepted Hellenism NO ONE forced them to, they are Greeks and we are proud of them as they are proud to be Greeks. . Arvanites are greeks. In fact they are the greeks. They didn't settle during the 14 century as some want to show. The others are just a mixed thing that learned a fake language because the europeans told them that they are greeks, so they should start to learn the new greek language. After all didn't the greeks came from north? Well, in north we have only the albanians and the slavonics. There was a reason why the arvanites spoke that language. There might had been a stronger reason why they made up 45% of the population of greece(not including Epirus and Macedonia) when the turks came. Try to live them free....and they tell you what they are indeed.
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Post by speedy on Mar 26, 2008 20:28:17 GMT -5
atlantis you are a retard.
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 20:38:59 GMT -5
If only you recognized when you are getting owned.
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 20:40:47 GMT -5
I cannot understand why the issue of Arvanites existing in Greece for more than 200 years in the south and 100 years in the north is used from some members of the forum as a tool to increase or create tension between the 2 countries. They accepted Hellenism NO ONE forced them to, they are Greeks and we are proud of them as they are proud to be Greeks. . Arvanites are greeks. In fact they are the greeks. They didn't settle during the 14 century as some want to show. The others are just a mixed thing that learned a fake language because the europeans told them that they are greeks, so they should start to learn the new greek language. After all didn't the greeks came from north? Well, in north we have only the albanians and the slavonics. There was a reason why the arvanites spoke that language. There might had been a stronger reason why they made up 45% of the population of greece(not including Epirus and Macedonia) when the turks came. Try to live them free....and they tell you what they are indeed. SOMEBODY BAN THIS IGNORANT.
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 20:41:40 GMT -5
Funny how more people speak a fake language like Greek today compared to your 60,000 year old Albanian language. When you get owned do you always resort to desperate measures with racism as your tool?
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Post by Arxileas on Mar 26, 2008 21:00:49 GMT -5
Can you understand that at least half of Albania is of Greek origin... Last comms I'm having with you atlantis.
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Post by atlantis on Mar 26, 2008 21:07:16 GMT -5
While most historians regard the ancestors of today's Arvanites as part of the same medieval population groups that are also the ancestors to present-day Albanians,[3] some Greek authors have argued that the settlers were not ethnic Albanians in a true sense. Their hypotheses are that Arvanites were either descendants of originally Greek populations who had only intermediately become Albanized; or that they were descendants of some other Thraco-Illyrian tribes and as such related but not identical to Albanians proper;[citation needed] or that Arvanites are descendants of the original pre-Greek "Pelasgian" population and as such actually autochthonous to southern Greece.[4] Confused history...
Hold your emotions......
I'm not talking in your frends way .... Im tired of hiering Turkish Alvanos....but still in good position I keep my silence....
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Post by atlantis on Mar 26, 2008 21:13:03 GMT -5
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 21:19:34 GMT -5
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Post by atlantis on Mar 26, 2008 21:23:02 GMT -5
you like that heeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 21:23:56 GMT -5
You have totally missed the point to this topic. My lord you are a stupid shittt!!!!!!!!! This thread is not about the origins of Arvanites. IT IS ABOUT Ottoman millet system effect of Balkan ethnicity. This ignorant should be renamed the "Poustagian."
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Post by atlantis on Mar 26, 2008 21:29:15 GMT -5
Absolutely I'm in the point....but need to built up and let see who deserve the ignorance.... Otherwise You never can answer....
Are you only culturally Greek because you are orthodox Christian? Or to draw the Albanian comparison where the religious experience is condensed to simply your given name: Are you only culturally Greek because you have a Greek name? If you had a different name/religion would you not be Greek?
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Post by panagiotopoulos on Mar 26, 2008 21:39:47 GMT -5
Absolutely I'm in the point....but need to built up and let see who deserve the ignorance.... Otherwise You never can answer.... Are you only culturally Greek because you are orthodox Christian? Or to draw the Albanian comparison where the religious experience is condensed to simply your given name: Are you only culturally Greek because you have a Greek name? If you had a different name/religion would you not be Greek? No, I am not only culturally Greek only because I am an orthodox christian... but the OTTOMAN MILLET SYSTEM certainly did shape my ethnic identity, cultural identity and religious identity just like it shaped the Arvanites AND just like it shaped the Albanians. """"Are you only culturally Greek because you have a Greek name? If you had a different name/religion would you not be Greek?""""" That is just a dumb question. What... do you think I am stupid like you? Don't ask something dumb like that again.
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