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Post by tsompanos on Mar 23, 2008 8:27:02 GMT -5
greek was spoken more widely all over italy some time ago and some 100 years back they learned both italian and greek in school
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 23, 2008 8:51:31 GMT -5
Kanaris, to be frank, it is getting a little tiring with you always stressing the religious diversity of the Albanians. Give it up already. Instead, give us some credit. We succeeded in something which other Balkanians didn't, namely maintain national unity and look beyond religious differences. This cannot be said about you Greeks. Greece had a sizeable Muslim population, classified as "Turkish" ... 40 per cent of Crete was for instance Muslim. They were all expelled and their place was taken by Asiatic 'Greeks' with less legitimacy as heirs of ancient Greece than local Greeks who just happened to have converted. The same with Serbs, Bosniaks & Croats ... who speak the same language essentially, with only religion dividing them. Now they're all different nations.
I don't know why being an Albanian and Muslim should disable you from praising Skanderbeg and consider him as our national hero. Does your Christian faith disable you from claiming a link to your pagan ancestors? Apparently not.
And as for the Suliotes; I've said it earlier. But the fact that you've forgotten it confirms yet again that convenient amnesia is so frequently present when one deals with truths that are not to one's liking. Let me name some of the "Muslim" Albanians that assisted Ali pasha Tepelena in his subjugation of highland Suli; Odhisea Andruco (Androutsos), Bakola, Vangjel Zapa, Dhjako (Diakos) etc.
Now, again for the hundred times, the conflict between Ali pasha Tepelena and the Suliotes was political, not religious. Otherwise, Orthodox warriors would not side with Ali pasha Tepelena. Ali was a controversial personality, but he was no Muslim fanatic. Infact, he granted his Christian subjects alot of rights, his wife Vassilika was Greek and Orthodox, and his closest secretaries were local Greeks from Ioannina. He maintained close ties with Philiki Etairia and planned a coordinated rebellion against the Sultan. Suli however provided an obstacle to him, an obstacle which prevented his attempt to consolidate power and break the old structures and finally establish a modern state. In alot of senses, he was a progressive man, and the Suliot ways with brigandage and disrespect for law and property was a problem which he aimed to solve. How can you be a legitimate ruler and demand respect if lawless people roam free and follow their own rules? What he did to Suli, he also did to local Çam landlords who weren't interested in having their earlier privileges revoked as part of a collective integration into a modern centralized state/monarchy. Ali's continuous attempts to centralize and concentrate power as a step towards founding a modern state was gradual and harsh .... when Mehmed Ali pasha, the Albanian governor of Egypt, patronized Ali in a letter calling himself the ruler of Egypt and Ali ruler of Ioannina (meaning that the former's realm was so much larger and grande), Ali responded;
"It is easy to rule over the fellahin (Egyptian farmers), but a different case to rule the Albanians, all of whom consider themselves an Ali pasha or Mehmed Ali pasha!"
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 23, 2008 9:55:20 GMT -5
The Souliotes were Greek.
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Post by atlantis on Mar 23, 2008 10:09:56 GMT -5
Page 116 "The Albanians" by Edwin E. Jacques the Greeks claim the Suliots as their own. But the Suliots were Albanian. Their fortress was elevated on a mountain which was a key element for Ali Pasha. Ali Pasha and the suliots battled for years. As it is now Greek children stage a play called "The Suloit Dance of Death". Each year Greeks pay homeage to the scenario when Ali Pasha wanted to capture the Suli region and as the mothers perfered to throw themselves and thier babies off of a cliff instead of being murdered by the "Turks". The real story is the Sulioits sided with the Greeks. "The Great Lion" Ali Pasha wanted a national resistance and he couldn't obtain it without the massive Suli mountain strategically located near Ioninna. This mountain would give direct access to Albania but the Suliots stood in the way. After years of negotiations and battles Ali Pasha was left with one choice and that was to conquer that mountain.
If this intrests you please read on Ali Pasha "The Great Lion" He was compared to Napolean as a defiant character of that time.
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Post by myzeqari on Mar 23, 2008 10:15:49 GMT -5
This cannot be said about you Greeks. Greece had a sizeable Muslim population, classified as "Turkish" ... 40 per cent of Crete was for instance Muslim. They were all expelled and their a step towards founding a modern state blood thicker than water eh Donnie? shamefull and despicable, rejecting your fellow bretheren because of religion, their history is a bottom less pit of shame.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Mar 23, 2008 10:16:20 GMT -5
you are funny you have alot travels/historian who were in Greece (before indepdence) all said Suliots are albanians...one of famous who helped too to liberatet Modern Greece is Lord Byron...read him what say also Suliots foght along Napelon Bonapart side (were over 2.000 fighters) and this regiment was called Albanian regiment (not grek, american or canadian or what ever)
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Post by atlantis on Mar 23, 2008 10:21:34 GMT -5
good point prijes I almost forgot that
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 23, 2008 11:39:04 GMT -5
This cannot be said about you Greeks. Greece had a sizeable Muslim population, classified as "Turkish" ... 40 per cent of Crete was for instance Muslim. They were all expelled and their a step towards founding a modern state blood thicker than water eh Donnie? shamefull and despicable, rejecting your fellow bretheren because of religion, their history is a bottom less pit of shame. Absolutely. In history we read about the massacred "Turks" of Peloponessus, when infact they were Greeks and Arvanites who had converted to Islam; the Turks' colonization of 'Roumelia' was restricted to Bulgaria and modern FYROM. The whole Muslim population of Greece was either forcefully converted back to Orthodoxy, or expelled to Anatolia ... in exchange for "real" Greeks from Asia.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 23, 2008 13:18:35 GMT -5
It's all nice and danty for Muslim Albs to sit back and brazenly discount events that occurred 300 to 400 years ago ... I wish it was like you explain things Donnie but you know very well how it was cept you won't dare write it down here in this pages... The mindset that existed back then was completely different animal... Muslims were aligned with the Ottomans in heart and soul... they were one... there was no other way.... Ali Pasha picked his wives under force or threat of death.... so he had a Greek wife.... The Sultan of Brunie has a Christian wife too..... no force nowadays it's money... Muslim Albanians did all the dirty work in the Ottoman empire..they didn't care a job was a job... if they had to kill other Christian albs so be it ... it was done efficiently and with no qualms about it.In fact the whole war on independence was between Muslim Albs and Christian Albs and Greeks...this explains the high number of albs that had aligned themselves with the Greeks..... Muslims that were expelled from Greece were just that,they were Turks... or Turks that spoke Greek.... living next to each other for hundreds of years... we knew who were the collaborators .... To give you another analogy.... and one that you will understand... Mussolinis fascists aligned themselves with the Nazis.... when they lost..and the Americans rode through Italy... a lot of them ( the fascists) buried their black coats in their back yards and strode through their front doors hugging the Americans....
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 23, 2008 13:29:45 GMT -5
atlantis said...
roflmao...typical albanian mentality... as a matter of fact,Athina... did spoke albanian 2 centuries ago...bcz of too many arvanites...so what???you achieved what???souliots and arvanites have chosen for themselves,centuries ago...you lost...and you will lose again,you cant beat greece,no matter what...assimilation is an one way road for you kids...the ones who will stay here are just raw material for assimilation...and your arrogance is your most serious disadvantage...
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 23, 2008 13:36:10 GMT -5
origin does not matter...they were lost for our side,when they chosed to support the enemy...so,they were turks...
that's greeks and greeks...too much pedigree talk in this forum...you lose the essence of things,you do realise their national concience,dont you...
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Post by Kastorianos on Mar 23, 2008 13:49:07 GMT -5
The Souliotes were Greek.
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Post by myzeqari on Mar 23, 2008 14:04:11 GMT -5
Absolutely not! and the fact that you keep coming back to the religion issue its a last ditch effort on your part to add foundation to your wild claims, you are offically clutching at straws.
you can scour through every concievable evidence and you will not find a single documented account of 'muslim' albs committing attrocities against 'christian' albs, i repeat this is not even an acceptable historical thesis, it would be rejected by any meaningful impartial academic,
its true that there has been alb collaborators with the turkish oppressors in exhange of favors and high ranks in the ottoman army but so what? if you sift through evidence there was more greeks that sold out than all others, we should keep in mind that greeks have repeatedly cut deals with ottomans to f**k over albanian muslims and christians alike,
there is not a single plausable study or a known hitorical event that albs fought against albs for religious reasons, albs have been one of the staunchest and the most hardlining nationalities aganist the turks, we have mounted the most memorable and bloodied battles against turks, ali pasha is a testament to this, no wonder that all our old songs have a common theme 'we must not allow our cities fall to the hands of turks' or they talk about 'treacherous greeks', if that was the case, how come there are no religious divisions in present dal alb? if we did indeed kill each other over religion why are we more united than ever, our old folks always say ' we have always lived along side each other',
therefore i would urge you to stop spewing your ill fated theories and to look further than religion in people, look at what happens if you keep instilling this venomous propaganda in people, greeks are so emotionally crippled that can't stand to so much as talk to a muslim, we albs keep telling you 'look its not a problem for us', but that seems to incense u even more, somehow u get enraged by the fact that we do not care, that leads me to believe that this is deep rooted in every greek and hard wired in your genetic make up and your ancestors indeed did kill their own because of religion, and the flip side is that in present day albs we are very much accepting and have an indifferent view towards the religious issue, what does that tell u? this mindset had to have been cultivated over hundreds of years, of course there are exceptions, but i am talking by enlarge here.
the evidence is clear and it is there, stop inciting this iditotic notion of albs fighting albs.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Mar 23, 2008 14:17:44 GMT -5
It's all nice and danty for Muslim Albs to sit back and brazenly discount events that occurred 300 to 400 years ago ... I wish it was like you explain things Donnie but you know very well how it was cept you won't dare write it down here in this pages... The mindset that existed back then was completely different animal... Muslims were aligned with the Ottomans in heart and soul... they were one... there was no other way.... Ali Pasha picked his wives under force or threat of death.... so he had a Greek wife.... The Sultan of Brunie has a Christian wife too..... no force nowadays it's money... Muslim Albanians did all the dirty work in the Ottoman empire..they didn't care a job was a job... if they had to kill other Christian albs so be it ... it was done efficiently and with no qualms about it.In fact the whole war on independence was between Muslim Albs and Christian Albs and Greeks...this explains the high number of albs that had aligned themselves with the Greeks..... Muslims that were expelled from Greece were just that,they were Turks... or Turks that spoke Greek.... living next to each other for hundreds of years... we knew who were the collaborators .... To give you another analogy.... and one that you will understand... Mussolinis fascists aligned themselves with the Nazis.... when they lost..and the Americans rode through Italy... a lot of them ( the fascists) buried their black coats in their back yards and strode through their front doors hugging the Americans.... If the Muslims of Albania were so tight with the Sultan, why the continuous rebellions? See, you're judging everything from a Greek perspective where religion plays the major role. This wasn't the case for us. Albanians converted to Islam, but they had no respect for the Sultan's authority and staged countless rebellions against him, often in coordination with their Christian brethren. When the Habsburg forces invaded Kosova by the end of the 17th century, Albanians (predominantly Muslim so) aided this Catholic empire led by the Catholic Archbishop, Pjetër Bogdani. Imagine that. And the Greek rebellion wasn't that simple. Initially, there was an alliance between Albanians & Greeks, of all religions. Ypsilantis praised Ago Vashari and Celo Myrto, Albanians of the Muslim faith, for their courage in the fight against the Sultan. But then, just like you, somebody got the idea that religion shouldbe the most crucial factor to be considered ... and suddenly, the Muslim faction was excluded from the rebellion, they were persecuted and their mosques burned down. I don't see a reason as to why they would continue fighting for a conspiring Greek clergy that didn't have their best interests at mind. Despite this, i.e. being separated at two camps due to the egoistic interests of the Phanariotes, the Albanians of both sides maintained a respect for another. And so, when the Egyptians tried to descrate Marko Bocari's grave, the Muslim Albanians fought them off and buried the warrior in a safer place, giving hm a simple ceremony. As for Ali; to my knowledge, he was monogamous. And I don't know if he forced Vassiliki into marrying him. You made a good point with the Sultans who took Christian brides. But it does not take away any of the other points I raised, such as the fact that he improved the conditions of all his subjects regardless religion, and that he had tight relations with the Orthodox community. A tyrant perhaps, but a Muslim fanatic? No. His close friend was George Verushi, Odhisea's father! And the Muslims of Greeks weren't Turks. You being a Muslim doesn't make you a Turk. Is it so difficult to differentiate between religion and ethnicity? If these two words meant the same thing, why aren't they considered synonyms? Turkish settlers came en masse only to Bulgaria (where their descendants constitute a large minority) and contemporary FYROM (where you still have some 70,000 ethnic Turk descendants of Yorük nomad warriors). You call them collaborators ... personally, I am convinced that an institution such as the Greek Orthodox Church was the biggest collaborator of them all ... but you didn't terminate it, did you? Yet all Muslims fall under the same category, right? Remember then that Theodor Kolokotronis' adoptive brother was Ali Farmaqi, a Muslim Arvanites from Vardounia, Peloponessus. Infact, the Muslim community of Greece were the biggest victims. Not only were they massacred, expelled and forcefully converted back to Christianity, but revisionists historians have killed their memory as well by falsely portraying them as nothing other than simple agents of the Sultan. You can do two things to kill a victim twice. Firstly carry out the deed in question. Then deny it. So again, remember, religion isn't the only factor that plays in.
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 23, 2008 14:19:18 GMT -5
i concur.Ali pasha was the worse enemy of the christian souliots.then again,souliots were just bilingual greeks and not christian albanians.
i concur.it was a massive situation.that's why albanians are being called "tourkalvanoi" by so many greeks...
why's that?
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 23, 2008 14:30:48 GMT -5
the situation has been changed.back then,religion played a vital role and defined ethnicity in some extent.the patriarchate of constantinople was the center of our nation during the otthoman period and before,and every romios recognised our patriarch as the leader of the nation.islam was the religion of our opressors and therefore it was hated by the enslaved greeks.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 23, 2008 14:37:57 GMT -5
Chios was full of Turks..... we got rid of them... in the great population exchange. Sure there were Greeks that had converted to Muslim... no doubt about that..here in Chios... just in my village there were the Kris and Tremis families.... they converted to Muslim and reconverted back to orthodox when the time came... they did it to secure their vast land they owned... Albs say religion is not important.... but they converted and stayed.. and the tiny Christian minority was speechless to talk about anything back then.... then Hohxa did his number on them.... so they lost their beliefs... Today is a different matter.... too many years have passed.... most muslims there ... are hardly religious anymore ... it's just a thing of a bygone era.
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 23, 2008 15:45:33 GMT -5
Mike...too much historical details make us lose the essence.If arvanites OR vlachs were not greeks indeed,then...
why did they contribute to the greek cause???why did they fight for greece,during all the greek wars???if they were alboz,why didnt they do anything for albania...this is greece,fools!!!here u r,only a few names...
Famous Arvanites
* Greek War of Independence o Andreas Miaoulis, admiral and later politician o Markos Botsaris, leader of Souliotes, defender of Messolonghi o Bouboulina, the only female member of Filiki Etaireia o Nikolaos Krieziotis, leader of the Greek Revolution in Evoia o Xadziyiannis Mexis, leader of Spetses
* Presidents of Greece o Pavlos Kountouriotis, admiral and later politician o Theodoros Pangalos, general and briefly military dictator
* Prime Ministers of Greece o Kitsos Tzavelas o Georgios Kountouriotis o Antonios Kriezis, served in Greek navy during the revolution, later politician o Dimitrios Voulgaris o Athanasios Miaoulis o Diomidis Kiriakos o Theodoros Pangalos, general and later politician o Alexandros Korizis o Petros Voulgaris o Alexandros Diomidis
* Greek politicians o Theodoros Pangalos, former minister of Foreign Affairs * Artists o Nikos Engonopoulos, painter and poet
Other (They may repeat) Notis Botsaris Markos Botsaris Andreas Miaoulis Athanasios Miaoulis Odysseas Androutsos Bouboulina Kitsos Tzavellas Tsamis Karatasos Georgios Kountouriotis Paulos Kountouriotis Antonios Kriezis Diomedes Kyriakos Alexandros Diomedes Kyriakos Emmanuil Repoulis Theodoros Pangalos Alexandros Koryzis Anastasios Liapis Margaritis Tzimas Labros Tzimas Theodoros Pangalos Kostas Laliotis Mihalis Liapis Georgios Arvanitidis Thanasis Bouras Eleni Boukoura-Altamoura Nikos Engonopoulos Andreas Kriezis Polychronis Lebesis Giorgos Papasideris Melina Merkouri Nikos Chatzikyriakos-Gkikas Yiorgos Tzavelas Sotiria Bellou Pascalis Arvanitidis Thanasis Moraitis Sofia Arvaniti Betty Arvaniti Grigoris Arnautoglou Eleftheria Arvanitaki Yorgos Arvanitis Alexis Arvanitakis Dimitris Arvanitis Vasil Stavroula Arvanitopou Christos Zotos Arvanitidis and Gjinis Alexandros Kikizas Dimitris Arvanitis Viki Arvaniti Jim Arvanitis Leonidas Kokkas Alexis Alvanos Panayiotis Gjionis Eydokia Tsamoglou Aristeidis Kollias Apostolos Arvanitopoulos Loukas Arvanitis Agne Vlaviani-Arvanitis
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 23, 2008 15:58:32 GMT -5
does anybody know which was the profession of Botsaris' son and daughter,by the way?correct me if im wrong,but i believe that his son was a minister of war of the the greek government... ;D
Markos's son, Dimitrios Botsaris, born in 1813, was three times minister of war during the reigns of Otto of Greece and George I of Greece.
His daughter Katerina "Rosa" Botsaris was in the service of Queen Amalia of Greece.
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 23, 2008 16:13:07 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SouliotesThe Souliote wars The Ottoman Turks attempted numerous times to conquer the territories of the Souliot Confederacy. The first conflicts between the Souliotes and the Ottomans (including Muslim Albanians) date back to 1635, if not earlier. In 1731, Hadji Ahmed, pasha of Ioannina, received orders from the Sultan to subdue the Souliotes and he lost his army of 8000 men. In 1754, Mustafa Pasha lost his army to the Souliotes too. In the following years, Mustafa Kokka came in with 4000 soldiers and Bekir Pasha with 5000. In the end, both failed to defeat the Souliotes. In 1759, Dost Bey, commander of Dhelvinou, was defeated by the Souliotes and Mahmoud Aga of Margariti, the governor of Arta, suffered the same fate in 1762. In 1772, Suleyman Tsapari attacked the Souliotes with his army of 9000 men and was defeated. In 1775, Kurt Pasha sent a military expedition to Souli that ultimately failed. When Ali became pasha of Ioannina in 1788, he tried for 15 years to destroy the Souliotes. In 1792, his army of 3000 Turk-Albanians (Ôïõñêáëâáíïß, a pejorative term meaning Muslim Albanians) was eliminated. Although he had hostages (such as Fotos Tzavellas who was the son of Lambros Tzavellas), the Souliotes fought bravely under the command of Georgios Botsaris, Lambros Tzavellas, and Dimos Drakos. Even women under the command of Moscho (Lambros Tzavellas' wife) participated in the battle. Eventually, 2000 Turk-Albanians and 74 Souliotes were killed.[12] The Souliot leaders Markos Botsaris and Kitsos Tzavellas became famous generals in the Greek War of Independence. Many Souliotes lost their lives while defending the city of Messolongi. Lord Byron, the most prominent European philhellene volunteer and commander-in-chief of the Greek army in Western Greece, tried to integrate the Souliotes into a regular army.
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