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Post by epiroti on Feb 27, 2008 10:46:02 GMT -5
Georgios, have you read Marin Barleti's book on Scanderbeg? I am just wandering to what level your stupidity is at...
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Post by Kastorianos on Feb 27, 2008 12:05:46 GMT -5
Thats stupid propaganda Epirus is not Kosovo...but at least we now know after Kosovo's independence that for Greece's territorial integrity the expulsion of the muslims Chams was an pre-emptively important act. Zervas should be seen more than ever as hero by all Greek Epirotes.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 27, 2008 12:20:18 GMT -5
^its about time you woke up
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Post by epiroti on Feb 27, 2008 12:29:20 GMT -5
Kastorianos, should we albanians do the same with our greek minority in albania?!
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Post by kartadolofonos on Feb 27, 2008 13:32:27 GMT -5
= this means automatic war ×ÙÑÉÓ ÔÏ ÊÏÓÏÂÏ ÊÁÉ ÔÓÁÌÏÕÑÉÁ ÄÅÍ ÕÐÁÑ×ÅÉ ÁËÂÁÍÉÁ
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 27, 2008 13:47:54 GMT -5
^oh ...you just woke up also....go back to sleep !
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Post by kartadolofonos on Feb 27, 2008 14:08:42 GMT -5
Ôá Âáëêáíéá åéíáé åéíáé ìðáñïõôé ðïõ ìðïñé ìå åíá óðéñôï íá åêñáãç. Ç Áëâáíïé èá åéíáé ïé áéôéá áí ãéíåé Ðïëåìïò óôá Âáëêáíéá êáé áõôï èá ôï ðëçñïóïõí áêñéâá. The Balkan is an Powderkeg if an WAR broke out the albanians will be pay a big price as black sheep after the destabilisation of the Balkans.
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Post by Kassandros on Feb 27, 2008 14:39:04 GMT -5
Ipirotis "Kastorianos, should we albanians do the same with our greek minority in albania?!" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- Why? Did they allied with your conquerors and killed you during your occupation times?
If they did... do it. If they didnt... dont even thing of touching them.
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Post by Kassandros on Feb 27, 2008 14:43:01 GMT -5
Ipirotis "The albanian government has never asked for border-changes towards greece. " -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By supporting the existence of these groups... it does. Also... the albanian govnt.. cant! If they want to see 1 million unemployed Albanians comming back in 1 day... let them do it. They know it.. and they dont. And third... I wonder.. If Albania was in Greece's shoes. If Albania had the guns and the good economy.. and if Greece was poor and the need of Albania was important.. would the Albanian govrmnt stand for stability and non-change of borders? Thanks God... we are the rich folks.. and there is peace.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 27, 2008 14:49:08 GMT -5
"Thanks God... we are the rich folks.. and there is peace."
what all desire ....be humble now ....
............................ how easy you forget the bad times or nobody told you ...ww2 we shares a stale loaf of bread (all we had ) with Greek mothers who were sent off to find food ...bad winter and famine in Greece then
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Post by kartadolofonos on Feb 27, 2008 15:03:07 GMT -5
you albanians feed us long ago with your anti greek propaganda and the hate against Greece falsification of greek history and now thats the result now.
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Post by Kassandros on Feb 27, 2008 15:06:12 GMT -5
"what all desire ....be humble now ...." --------------------------------------------- What do you want me to say? Thats the case right now. In future... it may change.. but for now.. thats the case.. "how easy you forget the bad times or nobody told you ...ww2 we shares a stale loaf of bread (all we had ) with Greek mothers who were sent off to find food ...bad winter and famine in Greece then " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nobody forgets bad moments Rex. But I'm sure... those Greek mothers... didnt try to bite the head who offered them bread. Its about ethics..mate.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 27, 2008 15:11:58 GMT -5
the greek falsification will always be argued over us ...its what keeps the forum going... and fuels conversation at greek cafe's ... ;D
it might be time for amends with the NOW TIME....recognize Kosova !!
there is no greater albanian that will knock on your door ....
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 27, 2008 15:13:48 GMT -5
"Nobody forgets bad moments Rex. But I'm sure... those Greek mothers... didnt try to bite the head who offered them bread. " I will private message you about that ...
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Post by atlantis on Feb 27, 2008 16:15:37 GMT -5
you albanians feed us long ago with your anti greek propaganda and the hate against Greece falsification of greek history and now thats the result now. What's the result ..........we still don't know but how you explaining that looks like Horse of Troy was a albanian mind... could be..........The life will be much easer without both propoganda
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Post by epiroti on Feb 27, 2008 16:44:58 GMT -5
Why? Did they allied with your conquerors and killed you during your occupation times? If they did... do it. If they didnt... dont even thing of touching them. (im)basil, according to those greek proffessors I was refering to, there were more nazi-collaborators amongst the greeks in south albania than amongst the chams. Also, many chams fought alongside the greek communists during WWII. Yet Enver Hoxha was more tolerant than many of you greeks of the 21st century. And if there were cham nazi-collaborators, does that really justify genocide?! expelling 50000 albanians, and killing a few thousand, raping women, plundering, etc There were no trials, nothing. Just plain genocide. How on earth can you see that as right, you SICK FVCKS!!! Are you even aware of what you are trying to rationalise?! Is your brain unable to decode words like genocide, massacres, rape?! Why can you not see what happenned as simply the deeds of some sick people without feeling personally attacked?! Or does your brain just automatically reject any acusations that greek soldier and/or politicians carried out horrendous acts in the past?! Anything greek must be good, right?!
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Post by Teuta1975 on Feb 27, 2008 20:50:12 GMT -5
I think Epirioti has a point here. One Government cannot commit genocide against women, children and the entire population by expelling them from their houses and massacre them because a few people decided to join the occupator. Collective punishment is what Serbs unwisely did and what Greek government did back then....
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
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Post by Kanaris on Feb 27, 2008 20:54:17 GMT -5
Agreed they did some terrible things.... but let's fix the now.... cause no one I know did anything bad to Albanians.
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Post by grksdied4you on Feb 27, 2008 21:44:32 GMT -5
How many Greeks IN GREECE DIED DURING WORLD WAR 2??? Didn't the population decrease from 7 million to 5 million??? Where do Albanians accept responsibility in that??? I have a simple posting on this issue.
Chameria issue From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search
The Chameria issue is an issue which has been raised by Albania since the 1990s over the expulsion of Muslim Cham Albanians a few thousands of whom had collaborated with the occupation forces, from the Greek province of Epirus between 1944–1945, following the Axis defeat in World War II. This policy, like the expulsion of 12 million ethnic Germans in the aftermath of the war had been instigated and planned by the British and American Allied command while hostilities were still taking place although its implementation caused more suffering than was envisaged.
Contents [hide]
* 1 Background * 2 Muslim Cham Collaboration * 3 Muslim Cham Expulsion * 4 Aftermath * 5 References * 6 See also * 7 External links
[edit] Background
Following the defeat of Ottoman forces in the region and the Balkan Wars of 1913, an international boundary commission awarded the northern part of the region of Epirus to Albania, and the southern part to Greece, based on their overall populations, leaving Greek and Albanian minority areas either side of the border. Most of the Cham-populated border area to the far northwest , except for a few Cham villages assigned to Albania, came under the Greek half. Most of the Muslim Cham population was part of the population exchange between Greece and Turkey under the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
The remaining 20,000 [1], Muslim Cham Albanians of Greece were subjected to discrimination that increased under Ioannis Metaxas. Tensions were exacerbated at the time of World War II. Albania was annexed by Italy in 1939, and when the later invaded Greece in 1940 it did so from Albania using several thousand native Albanian auxiliaries. Following the conquest of Greece by Nazi Germany, the Italians, whose zone of occupation included Epirus, recruited a large number of Muslim Cham citizens to assist them.
[edit] Muslim Cham Collaboration
While a large number of Muslim Chams were responsible for atrocities against ethnic Greeks, the majority were only passive collaborators, distrusting Greeks and simply supporting the realization of a Greater Albania under the Italian occupation regime. There were no reports of Orthodox Chams collaborating with the occupying forces.
During the Axis occupation the Muslim Chams set up their own administration and militia, part of the fascist Balli Kombetar organization, at Thesprotia and collaborated closely with both the Italians and — when Italy capitulated - the Germans. [2]. Cham units comprised the main occupation force committing, alongside the Wehrmacht, a number of atrocities on their ethnically Greek fellow citizens burning houses and villages. [1],killing over 900 Greeks and forcing thousands to flee their homes[3].
Muslim Cham units also played an active part in the Holocaust in Greece, including the round-up and expulsion to Auschwitz and Birkenau of the 2,000 strong Romaniotes Greek-Jewish community of Ioannina in April 1944 [4]. As the Germans and their allies began to lose ground to the anti-Nazi militias in 1944, and started retiring in Albania, many hundreds of Chams followed them. [1] [3].
[edit] Muslim Cham Expulsion
The Muslim Cham exodus began in October 1944 as many hundreds fled with the Nazi forces into Albania [3]. In 1944 the right-wing EDES resistance group attempted to co-opt the Muslim Cham guerrillas and recruit them against ELAS [1], but their overtures were rebuffed.
This precipitated the Muslim Chams’ forced expulsion, organized by EDES's leader Napoleon Zervas, under the instigation and authorisation of the British Military Mission in Greece, headed by Colonel Chris Woodhouse, who reported that:
Encouraged by the Allied Mission I headed, Zervas drove the Chams out of their homes in 1944. The majority fled to find shelter in Albania. Their eviction from Greece was carried out with large-scale bloodshed. Zervas's work was followed in March 1945 with a large scale massacre of the Filiates Chams that cannot be excused. The result was the eviction of the undesirable Albanian population from their land.
Beginning on June 27, 1944, while Greece was still under German occupation, and continuing through March 1945, EDES resistance fighters, operating under British orders to expel and punish the Nazi collaborators, launched a series of attacks on Muslim Cham villages in Epirus, killing several hundred Chams and causing 18,000 to flee to Albania or Turkey.
Joseph Jacobs, head of the US Mission in Albania (1945-1946) wrote:
In March 1945 units of Zervas's dissolved forces carried out a massacre of Chams in the Filiates area, and practically cleared the district of the Albanian minority. According to all the information I have been able to gather on the Cham issue, in the fall of 1944 and during the first months of 1945, the authorities in north-western Greece perpetrated savage brutality by evicting some 25,000 Chams - residents of Chameria - from their homes. They were chased across the border after having been robbed of their land and property. Hundreds of male Chams from the ages of 15 to 70 were interned on the islands of the Aegean Sea. In total 102 mosques were burnt down.
[edit] Aftermath
A large number of the predominantly Muslim Cham refugees settled in villages of southern Albania, where today their descendants claim to number about 200,000 [3]. A Muslim Cham association (the Cham Political Association, CPA, in Albanian: Shoqëria Politike Atdhetare "Çamëria"), has been set up in Albania which claims a number of 2,800 dead and over 35,000 evicted although these figures are not supported by historians, like Victor Roudometof [5] or Mark Mazower [1], who put the number of evictees at 18,000. In 1994 Albania passed a law that declared the 27th of June The Day of Greek Chauvinist Genocide Against the Albanians of Chameria and built a memorial at the village of Konispol. In 1999 the president of the CPA, Hilmi Saqe, stated that:
These massacres were almost at the same level as those of the Holocaust on the Hebrews[6]
The Greek government refuses to allow them to resettle in Greece considering them to have lost their citizenship for collaboration (1,910 Muslim Cham collaborators were convicted in absentia by the Greek Special Court on Collaborators [2]) after evidence was brought of their war crimes and/or (under a law stricken in 1998) as having left Greece as non-ethnic Greeks (either on the part of them personally or their ancestors from whom they would ordinarily have acquired it). The Greek government also refuses to negotiate over the properties formerly belonging to the Cham beys (Muslim feudal lords), considering them lawfully confiscated for the same reasons.
In terms of international law their status is that of Czech and Polish citizens of German ethnicity who were evicted from their homes after WWII as the result of their association with Nazi Germany. The later have also formed associations demanding restitution of their properties and repatriation. In that instance and again under the auspices of the victorious American and British forces over 12 million ethnic Germans were evicted from their homes with close to a million perishing in the process. The European Court of Human Rights has the authority to render a verdict on the matter of the properties of evicted Chams, but no relevant case has ever been brought before it.
[edit] References
1. ^ a b c d e M. Mazower (ed.), After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960, p. 25 2. ^ a b Russell King, Nicola Mai, Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers,The New Albanian Migration, p.67, and 87 3. ^ a b c d Miranda Vickers, The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece, paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002 4. ^ M. Mazower, Inside Hitler's Greece 5. ^ Victor Roudometof, Collective Memory, National Identity, and Ethnic Conflict Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian Question, p.181-182 The figure of 30,000 is adopted from the Cham associations without checking the other sources used in the discussion in this chapter. 6. ^ Speech by Hilmi Saqe, OSCE Istanbul Summit, unrelated fringe meeting, 18 November 1999
[edit] See also
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Post by grksdied4you on Feb 27, 2008 22:06:54 GMT -5
EVERYTHING GREEK IS GOOD ESPECIALLY WHEN IT INVOLVES KICKING CHAMERIAN BUTTS!
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