Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Dec 31, 2007 21:20:32 GMT -5
By Alexis Papachelas Whenever I read the news from Serbia, I am saddened. A serious country, with a great history and tradition, has managed to commit international suicide and slide into isolation. And often I ask myself how a country that has so much in common with Greece has managed to fall into such desperate straits.
In the DNA of Greeks and Serbs, one finds some classic symptoms. We both believe that we are nations that are both alone and unique and that the rest of the planet owes us much. We both believe very strongly that we are such unique people that everyone else wants to eliminate us lest we spoil things for them. We have a strong tendency to see ourselves as victims, as prey in a centuries-old hunt in which the hunters are Turks, English, Americans and so on.
We agree fully on one thing: We never make mistakes, and that whenever things go wrong, it is always someone else's fault.
Serbia lost a war when its then strongman decided to "cleanse" Kosovo and take on the whole of the international community. He miscalculated with regard to the reactions of the great powers; he went to war and he lost. Whether or not this was moral or just is not the point – that is what happened. Today's Serbia – a country without a vibrant middle class or elite – after the Milosevic storm, is once again falling back on the role of victim. Its politicians are even thinking of sacrificing the country's efforts to join the European Union or to sever diplomatic relations with the West in order to punish Europe and the United States for what they are doing with regard to Kosovo. But the problem is no one cares.
I know that many of my compatriots will be angered by these lines.
They admire the Serbs' guts, the courage of a David taking on a Goliath even if this means he loses everything. They would like Greece to resemble Serbia in this, and live up to the stereotype of being the region's tough guy.
Fortunately, though, the Greek DNA has elements of survival and adaptability which have lead to centuries of looking outward and an eternal spirit of entrepreneurship. Eleftherios Venizelos, returning to power as prime minister after the catastrophic defeat of Greece in Asia Minor in 1922, did not sit sulking in a corner. Instead, he signed a treaty that was difficult in political terms but which turned out to be most valuable. He patched things up with Greece's traditional allies and set the country on course for reconstruction.
Constantine Karamanlis returned to power in 1974 after the collapse of the military dictatorship and after a great military defeat on Cyprus. Public opinion demanded that he follow the Serb model, that he put the country in a corner where Greece could moan about the injustice done to it and follow the proud road of isolation. But he did not do this. Karamanlis looked the average Greek in the eye and told him (whether he liked it or not) that "Greece belongs to the West" and he got Greece into the European Union.
So when I look at Serbia today, I thank God that we Greeks have learned to live with our schizophrenia. We are fond of our persecution complex, we like to shout in favor of every underdog and to appear brave in words. In deeds, though, we trust practical leaders to do the job for us, to keep us members of the best clubs and follow realistic policies.
This road may not have much glory or create myths, but it is the road that made Greece grow from the time of its establishment and which (still) makes it different from its neighbors. link Any thoughts on this?
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 31, 2007 23:15:30 GMT -5
I think that although on one side there is much similarity between all regions of Balkans in terms of genes there is also differences.
The Serbs are essentially the descendants of defiant and warlike Balkan mountain people (focus being on its medieval heartland focused on and around todays Montenegro from which area most Serbs derive their origins) that become linguistically slavized which is historical irony (by what appear to be far more even tempered slavs). Serbs pride themselves as never being conquered (meaning Montenegrin Serbs which were the only remaining free Serbs in Balkans and in fact the only remaining people in Balkans). It is obvious that these are descendants of the same (or closely related kin) stock of local mountain Greek people as were Dorian Greeks which produced Spartans (sacrifice at Thermopile which was used by Njegos, medieval Montenegrin ruler, as a strong inspiration to continue resisting Turks at all costs), that produced Macedonians which put it all on the line versus a much greater Persian enemy and won. Medieval Serbs put it all on the line in 1389 battle with Ottomans and lost. Reason, disunity or the very thing that plagued Byzantines and which was present in much of Greek history. Serbs never learned to be practical and diplomatic (example Serbian reply to Austro-Hungary right before WW1) and the wild mountain heart still beats with them just as it did inside ancient mountain Hellenic people in the same regions 1000's of years ago.
The (specifically coastal) Greeks on the other hand are also people of the sea and thus merchants by nature and with that also comes a very different mentality. One that also has to have ability to more effectively utilize calculation and logic which might be the reason as to why certain things were eventually accepted by the populace without much resistance encountered and why such path would be chosen by the leaders to begin with. As old Serbian (Balkan) saying goes "Head can not pass the wall" the same has to apply for anything else and especially politics and with that note I finish this post and wish all who are reading HNY (Happy New Year).
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Post by grksdied4you on Dec 31, 2007 23:20:57 GMT -5
It is going to be the New Year soon. That is what I think. I am going to drink some champagne and watch Dick Clark. I cannot believe he is still alive!!! Your post was very interesting nevertheless Kanaris. I admire the Serbs but they have isolated themselves so much but I feel that they have been betrayed by the west. It was a big mistake for the west to lose Serbia to the long arm of Russia. But hey, it has always been east vs. west and I am not sure where Greece fits into that equation. Greece is like a mix of both. I guess Greeks know how to play both sides of the ball.
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Post by grksdied4you on Dec 31, 2007 23:22:07 GMT -5
Greece makes serious efforts to do what is best for the country in terms of economics and foreign policy for the past 30 years and not what is best for the ego. I think Greece makes wise choices and thinks with the brain and not the balls.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Dec 31, 2007 23:22:43 GMT -5
Happy New Year... and may all your endeavors be successful..
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 1, 2008 0:31:58 GMT -5
dates back 7th Century A.D first Serb-Greek historical interaction when the first Serbian tribes ventured to the south and were granted certain privileges by the Constantinople Emperors.A century later they became Orthodox Christians by the greek monks Cyrilos & Methodius that introduced them into the Byzantine culture and Ethnos.Serbs and Greeks common religion (Orthodox) have the same enemy. Greeks and Serbs have often antagonized each other for supremacy in the Balkans, but they have never fought between them, a phenomenal approach to a region known for the frequency and ferocity of its local conflicts. .
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 1:06:48 GMT -5
Forgot to mention a very thing that defines serb character and it is what we call 'inat' (which is probably what makes us appear more extreme at times). Doing something out of Inat is doing something out of spite. Also being conservative to change and sticking to traditions longer then others (example being is following old calender when it comes to Orthodox celebrations which is two weeks later from the one we all use on secular day to day basis).
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Mimi
Amicus
Kosovo IS Albania!
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Post by Mimi on Jan 1, 2008 7:44:59 GMT -5
at leased they enjoye the glory moments, when they though they were so big an powerful that they could do anything they wanted, but i guess all good things has come to come to an end. none else is to blame here, its all about justice, cheers Happy new year everyone!, hope you have a great and a happy year!
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Post by Georgios Kastriotis on Jan 1, 2008 8:14:18 GMT -5
Mimi you are so naive. What have the Sipstars done thats great in history? Sipstars are just lucky d*mn lucky nato helped them last time. The the Serbs should have been helped instead of being bombed, nato bombed the wrong people. Sipstars would had no chance without natos help. Sipstars always rely on others for support, whats great about that? Fight your own battles then we talk
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 1, 2008 10:20:47 GMT -5
Yes Canaris such a touching article ....
aLaBs
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Mimi
Amicus
Kosovo IS Albania!
Posts: 463
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Post by Mimi on Jan 1, 2008 10:24:26 GMT -5
Mimi you are so naive. What have the Sipstars done thats great in history? Sipstars are just lucky d*mn lucky nato helped them last time. The the Serbs should have been helped instead of being bombed, nato bombed the wrong people. Sipstars would had no chance without natos help. Sipstars always rely on others for support, whats great about that? Fight your own battles then we talk and what o you know about our history? read about it if your so curous to know, there is a lot to read about and not the serbs or greeks verion of our history but the re al one. your just so d*mn angry that nato bombed serbia and reviled its plans, you can say what the heck you want its over they are in the eyes of europe thy cant do a thing anymore, they can dream about a greater serbia all they want thats not gonna happen. they are in a akward position now they feel like they cant join nato, cuz then it means swollow their pride, its ither that or isolation, look what they have done to themselves, whats great about that? ...thats not a fair war, we had no power they took everything from us, we tried with that litle that we had while they were fighting the civil and innocent people whats great about that? why do you think nato intervened? there were no bravery in the war, they were a bunch of chicken soilders who could not manage to fight a land in their own size instead, they first made sure that they had nothing than they attacked.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 1, 2008 10:49:20 GMT -5
Mimi ...Hi ya doing .,and Happy New year to you ..
dont get worked up about serb-greek shared dna article from canaris ......
besides they deserve each other they have many things in common and I have read many books about how the serbian arrival strengthened all things that were byzantine
they tilted the balance upon arrival...Justinian speaks of it ...Constantinople was more beautified and strengthened automatically
another thing is that some greeks seem to not know of the last people to steppes foot in the balkans 600ad maybe bcs these same greeks might of came into the balkans just recently themselves ..
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Mimi
Amicus
Kosovo IS Albania!
Posts: 463
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Post by Mimi on Jan 1, 2008 11:03:40 GMT -5
Mimi ...Hi ya doing .,and Happy New year to you .. dont get worked up about serb-greek shared dna article from canaris ...... besides they deserve each other they have many things in common and I have read many books about how the serbian arrival strengthened all things that were byzantine they tilted the balance upon arrival...Justinian speaks of it ...Constantinople was more beautified and strengthened automatically another thing is that some greeks seem to not know of the last people to step foot in the balkans 600ad maybe bcs these same greeks might of came into the balkans recently themselves .. Hi Rex, i am doing great thanks, have some relatives on visit so we are having a great time...how about you?...Happy new year, hope all your dreams come true an its a magical year No i know, i am not worke up about it i just though i shoul reply to "georgios"
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 1, 2008 13:01:54 GMT -5
Yes Canaris such a touching article .... aLaBs Have you even understood the article..or just blabbering to appear cool as usual? Do me a favor and read it.
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Post by BibleRiot on Jan 1, 2008 17:55:37 GMT -5
I think the article is a bit self-congratulatory. Greece was not ceded to its Communist resistance movement post 1945 -- Serbia was. Later, Serbia got screwed because it was just about the only Eastern European country still aligning itself with Russia, and still trying to maintain a statist economy of sorts. Milosevic thought he could bluff NATO: (you Westies won't dare commit ground troops). He didn't realise that NATO expansion and credibility required his elimination - hence Rambouillet, and Appendix B www.swans.com/library/art6/pendixb.html which was a demand for unconditional surrender. The Serbs were very badly led by men with no diplomatic understanding. Also, the Serb people aren't the darlings of Europe the way the Greeks are. Same genes? I'd guess there's more Alb genes in Greece than Serb ones, despite the 8th Century. Orthodoxy, nationalist revolution and success in the Balkan Wars is what really ties the two nations together - but in Greece's case the link with Orthodox Russia was broken, or at least weakened by the British, for imperial reasons, way back in the 19th century. As dear old T.Pratchett says ... never confuse morality with geography.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 1, 2008 22:30:33 GMT -5
This may very well be the case, with regards to kosovo i metohia. I think Russia has come into the picture at the right time to enforce and remind people of rules and conventions of which the UN itself was founded after WW2. I don't think serbia is so isolated as you may perceive. All in all it was a nice post Kanaris
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 2, 2008 13:09:53 GMT -5
The article doesn't not talk about scientific DNA.... but a perceived and symbolic one acquired through history.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Jan 2, 2008 13:37:46 GMT -5
^ yes we understand that ....
your shared symbolic thingy is making refugees ....maybe bcs of being refugees once yourselves .....
you know like the psycho doctors say if a person is abused when young they might become the abuser later on in time ...
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 2, 2008 13:44:00 GMT -5
Bibleriot said:
I was writing to Bible.... not to you since we all know you are too quick and intelligent to have this slip by you... ;D
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 2, 2008 13:45:58 GMT -5
Dont be so modest, Canaris.
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