|
Post by Niklianos on Nov 24, 2007 22:10:14 GMT -5
If you believe the "Theory" that the Illyrians are descended from the Pelasgians please post your sources supporting your claims in this thread. I don't want to clog up unrelated post with this topic. So let's have some fun and see what you can come up with!
|
|
|
Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 24, 2007 22:17:02 GMT -5
Niklianos, why don't we start with the "theory" that Illirians are NOT at ALL descendants of Pelasgians to begin with? Then, we can follow up with what happened to Pelasgians and to what happened to Illirian-Tribes and Greek-Tribes?
|
|
|
Post by Niklianos on Nov 24, 2007 22:35:19 GMT -5
I agree! Lets start with the Illyrian - Pelasgian connection.
|
|
|
Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 24, 2007 23:49:46 GMT -5
One by One. Pelazgians first: Pe·las·gi·an (p-lzj-n) n. A member of a people living in the region of the Aegean Sea before the coming of the Greeks.The name "Pelasgians" first appears in the poems of Homer: the Pelasgians appear in the Iliad among the allies of Troy. In the section known to scholars as The Catalogue of Ships, which otherwise preserves a strict geographical order, they stand between the Hellespontine cities and the Thracians of south-east Europe, i.e. on the Hellespontine border of Thrace (2.840-843). Odyssey, 17.175-177, places the Pelasgians in Crete, together with two apparently indigenous and two immigrant peoples (Achaeans and Dorians), but gives no indication to which class the Pelasgians belong. Lemnos (Iliad, 7.467; 14. 230) has no Pelasgians, but a Minyan dynasty. Two other passages (Iliad, 2.681-684; 16.233-235) apply the epithet "Pelasgic" to a district called Argos about Mount Othrys in southern Thessaly, and to the temple of Zeus at Dodona. But neither passage mentions actual Pelasgians; Hellenes and Achaeans specifically people the Thessalian Argos, and Dodona hosts Perrhaebians and Aenianes (Iliad, 2.750) who are nowhere described as Pelasgian. It looks therefore as if "Pelasgian" were here used connotatively, to mean either "formerly occupied by Pelasgians" or simply "of immemorial age."Strabo quotes Hesiod as expanding on the Homeric phrase, calling Dodona "seat of Pelasgians" (fr. 225); he speaks also of an eponymous Pelasgus, the father of the culture-hero of Arcadia, Lycaon. After Hesiod, a number of early authors flesh out his brief statement. An early genealogist, Asius, describes Pelasgus as the first man, literally born of the earth to create a race of men. An early poet, Hecataeus, makes Pelasgus king of Thessaly (expounding Iliad, 2.681-684); Acusilaus applies this Homeric passage to the Peloponnesian Argos, and engrafts the Hesiodic Pelasgus, father of Lycaon, into a Peloponnesian genealogy. Hellanicus repeats this identification a generation later, and identifies this Argive or Arcadian Pelasgus with the Thessalian Pelasgus of Hecataeus. Aeschylus regards Pelasgus as earthborn (Supplices I, sqq.), as in Asius, and ruler of a kingdom stretching from Argos to Dodona and the Strymon; but in Prometheus 879, the "Pelasgian" land simply means Argos. Sophocles takes the same view (Inac/jus, fragment. 256) and for the first time introduces the word "Tyrrhenian" (bringing the Etruscans) into the story, apparently as synonymous with "Pelasgians". Herodotus, like Homer, has a denotative as well as a connotative use. He describes actual Pelasgians surviving and speaking mutually intelligible dialects [/b at Placie and Scylace on the Asiatic shore of the Hellespont near Creston on the Strymon; in this area they have "Tyrrhenian" neighbors (Persian Wars 1.57).
He alludes to other districts where Pelasgian peoples lived on under changed names; Samothrace and Antandrus in Troas probably provide instances of this. In discussing Lemnos and Imbros he describes a Pelasgian population whom the Athenians conquered only shortly before 500 BC, and in connection with this he tells a story of earlier raids of these Pelasgians on Attica, and of a temporary settlement there of Hellespontine Pelasgians, all dating from a time "when the Athenians were first beginning to count as Greeks."
Repetation. Illyrians:
Plutarch's "Life of Pyrrhus" Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, were named Pyrrhidae; as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, Hyllus's son, had also that name. From him, Achilles came to have divine honors in Epirus, under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first, who by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides: he married Phthia, the daughter of Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time off the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas daughters, and Pyrrhus a son.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 25, 2007 0:56:58 GMT -5
The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, tr., vol. 1 (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1885), Book 1; and vol. 2 , book 3]. ________________________________________________________ What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by the Pelasgi of the present day, - those, for instance, who live at Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians, - or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some timewith the Athenians, - or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they brought with them into the countries where they are now settled. The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied. . The Cadmeians were the Graeco-Phoenician race (their name merely signifying "the Easterns"), who in the ante-Trojan times, occupied the country which was afterwards called Boeotia. Hence the Greek tragedians, in plays of which ancient Thebes is the scene, invariably speak of the Thebans. source
|
|
|
Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 25, 2007 1:26:14 GMT -5
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 25, 2007 2:08:10 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by albanesehoney on Nov 25, 2007 2:18:37 GMT -5
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9475%281933%2954%3A2%3C97%3AHOTPIA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage JSTOR The Classical Association Herodotus on the Pelasgians in Attica A. G. Laird The American Journal of Philology, Vol. 54, No. 2 (1933), pp. 97-119 doi:10.2307/290067 This article consists of 23 page(s). Review: Brief Reviews Greece & Rome, 2nd Ser., Vol. 7, No. 2 (Oct., 1960), pp. 189-197 This article consists of 9 page(s). This interpreter of Herodotus claims that in the nuanced meaning of "dwelt with' has a definite different meaning than "settled with". 'Settled' referring to later incursion of Attica and "Dwelt" referring to living there as foreigners/aliens since Hellenes "split off".
|
|
|
Post by leandros nikon on Nov 25, 2007 5:15:52 GMT -5
HERE'S THE PELASGIAN CONNECTION OF THE GREEKS BTW...
Velleius Paterculus, Roman History p3 Book I
Quote: Greece was then shaken by mighty disturbances. The Achaeans, driven from Laconia, established themselves in those localities which they occupy today. The Pelasgians migrated to Athens, and a warlike youth named Thessalus, of the race of the Thesprotians, with a great force of his fellow-countrymen took armed possession of that region, which, after his name, is now called Thessaly. Hitherto it had been called the state of the Myrmidones. in my opinion,this text proves the relation of greeks to the pelasgians...greeks were related to the pelasgians indeed and the thessalians had a pelasgian origin,just like the athenians...
ALSO...
. In Argos, Pelasgus was believed to have been a son of Triopas and Sois, and a brother of lasus, Agenor, and Xanthus, or a son of Phoroneus, and to have founded the city of Argos in Peloponnesus, to have taught the people agriculture, and to have received Demeter, on her wanderings, at Argos, where his tomb was shown in later times. (Paus. i. 14. § 2, ii. 22. § 2 ; Schol. ad Eurip. Orest. 920 ; Eustath.ad Horn. p. 385 ; comp. pelasga.)
Herodotus was convinced that the Hellenes were not invaders, but descendants of Pelasgians:
Herodotus: from The History, c. 430 B.C., I.56-59
These were the Spartans and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations held from earliest times the most distinguished place in Hellas, the one being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one never having quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory...What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture....we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body...The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied
|
|
|
Post by albanesehoney on Nov 27, 2007 1:38:14 GMT -5
Velleius Paterculus, Roman History
"Greece was then shaken by mighty disturbances. The Achaeans, driven from Laconia, established themselves in those localities which they occupy today. The Pelasgians migrated to Athens, and a warlike youth named Thessalus, of the race of the Thesprotians, with a great force of his fellow-countrymen took armed possession of that region, which, after his name, is now called Thessaly. Hitherto it had been called the state of the Myrmidones. "
Are you serious Leandros? This guy repeats what I said. That Thesprotians/Epirus tribe were said to be barbarian NON Hellenic-Greek speakers by both your Herodotus and Thucydides. lol
Thessaly...its seat of rule in Larrissa. Place of Achilles birth. All considered Pelasgian...Barbarians. We keep going back and forth on this..give it up. If Pelasgians are Hellenic, then why does your historians Herod..and Thucyd..both condemn them as barbarians? You cannot be both barbarian and civilized Hellenic..lol at the same time. Besides, both those historians claimed NOT to understand anything the Pelasgians said in their language. Therefore, you prove to us again, that those Pelasgians were not the folks of civilized Hellenes but the barbarians of Thesprotia/Epirus and Thessaly. All north of Hellenic Athens.
|
|
|
Post by leandros nikon on Nov 27, 2007 16:05:30 GMT -5
First of all,this text refers to a very-very old period,many centuries before the classical era...this text proves the relation of greeks with the pelasgians...there was a serious pelasgian influence in greece,Athens which later became a leading power of Hellenism,was initially pelasgian...Thessaly too as it seems...Do you doubt the greekness of Athens?Also pelasgians had a serious relation with greeks,they were related ethnically...if you read the other quote that i gave ,you might realise the fact of a very serious greek pelasgian connection...
but tell me smthing else...if these pelasgians were trully illyrians,why doesnt Herodotus say so?or perhaps Thucidedes?do you supose they ignored the word "illyrians"?by claiming that these people werent greeks is simply not enough to conclude that they were illyrians,your argument is simply poor...
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 27, 2007 17:58:10 GMT -5
The illyrians had a very short life span... they appeared then disappeared.... One more thing I noticed all our 'friends' using over and over again is the term Barbarian... they automatically assume the term denotes not greeks.... you're off your rocker to think that...because the Athenians were known to call most other Greek tribes especially warrior tribes like the Spartans and Macedonians..
You guys and that includes the Slavs and Bulgars should have had your own people to narrate your history through time..and leave 'our' Herodotus alone.... we made history and we recorded it... weather it's true or not.... no one will ever know.. trying to disprove it only makes asses out of yourselves...
Sure there were others..but compared to the ancient Greeks they were stupid and caveman like.... like comparing todays Americans to the south American jungle pygmies.... yes you were the pygmies... no one gives a rats ass about them..
|
|
|
Post by leandros nikon on Nov 27, 2007 18:20:42 GMT -5
;D
|
|
|
Post by ahristos on Nov 28, 2007 2:05:12 GMT -5
ore rexxo albs are caucasians and muslems like you
|
|
|
Post by ILIRI I MADH on Nov 28, 2007 3:49:33 GMT -5
ore ahristos you are malaka ore ahahah
there are greeks who are albanians and albanians who are greeks, so both people are pretty mixed up and yes both pelasgians and illyrians mixed a lot...hellens come from some of these pelasgians and some southern illyrians do too, so yeah...
|
|
|
Post by kartadolofonos on Nov 28, 2007 7:56:25 GMT -5
The name Pelasgians (Ancient Greek: Πελασγοί - Pelasgoí, s. ... refer to groups of people who preceded the Hellenes
our pelasgian illyrian mythos is since comunism regime Enver Hoxa times
you were never ancient you come here from nothing and mixed with local ancient people illyrians and thracians and steal them her history !!!
|
|
|
Post by Arxileas on Nov 28, 2007 8:18:18 GMT -5
On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today
They were added during the communist era and thats why they are unacceptable by historians.
On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today
ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated
From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.
|
|
|
Post by ILIRI I MADH on Nov 30, 2007 0:42:25 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by albanesehoney on Nov 30, 2007 1:04:04 GMT -5
Coll. Antropol. 24 (2000) 2: 303–307UDC 575.174.015.3(496.5)Original scientific paperHLA Class I hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=clanak_download&id_clanak_jezik=15462. Polymorphismin the Albanian PopulationZ. Grubi}1, V. Kerhin-Brkljai}1, E. ^euk-Jelii}1, S. Kuci2and A. Ka{telan11National Referral Organ Transplantation and Tissue Typing Center,University Hospital Center Zagreb, Zagreb, Croatia Faculty of Medicine Pristina, Pristina, Kosovo A B S T R A C TThe HLA class I polymorphism was studied in a sample of the Albanian population.Ninety-three unrelated healthy Albanians were typed for HLA-A, -B and -Cw antigensby standard microlyphocytotoxicity test. The antigens with the highest frequencies were:HLA-A2 (34.4%), A3 (14.5%) and A1 (12.4%); B51 (19.3%), B35 (12.4%) and B18(10.2%); Cw4 (16.2%), Cw7 (16.2%) and Cw6 (10.8%). The HLA haplotypes with highfrequency in Albanians included A2-B51 (4.3%), A2-B18 (2.4%), A2-B35 (2.4%),Cw4-B35 (7.6%), and Cw7-B18 (6.5%), which are not significantly different from theother neighboring populations. Low frequency of HLA-A1-B8 haplotype (1.1%) is notedin the Albanian population. The frequency of HLA-B27 antigen (1.1%) is one of the low-est frequencies observed in Caucasians. Such results are important in studies ofHLA-A1-B8, HLA-B27 and disease associations. These findings should be also useful inunderstanding the origin of Albanians, representing a base for future studies aboutHLA polymorphism in the Albanian population.The main characteristic of the HLAsystem is a great polymorphism, whichmakes it very useful for population stud-ies and for studying the origins of differ-ent ethnic groups1. It may also be used tosingle out populations. First, particularalleles are only observed in some popula-tions (e. g., HLA-A36, -A43 in Negroids)or some alleles are very frequent in manypopulations (e. g., HLA-A2)2. Second, the strong linkage disequlibrium betweenHLA alleles at two or three neighboring loci shows that certain combinations(HLA haplotypes) are characteristic infrequency of one or a large number of pop-ulations3. Albanians are a very homogenous population, their history suggests that theydid not mix with neighboring popula-tions. It is assumed that Albanians haveIllyrian origin. The Illyrians are of special interest because there is no consensus regarding their origin, whether Illyrians were immigrants on the Balkanpeninsula or an autochthonous population4. Regardless to its origin, Illyrians together with Thracians, are one of theoldest populations which settled theSouth of Europe. Here's a clear connect to our original ancestors. Another one too. www3.isrl.uiuc.edu/~junwang4/langev/localcopy/pdf/piazza06evolang.pdf. DIFFUSION OF GENES AND LANGUAGESIN HUMAN EVOLUTIONALBERTO PIAZZADipartimento di Genetica, Biologia e Biochimica,Università di Torino,via Santena 19, 10126 Torino, Italyalberto.piazza@unito.itLUIGI CAVALLI SFORZADepartment of Genetics,Stanford University,Stanford, CA 94305,USAcavalli@stanford.eduIn a study by Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1988), the spread of anatomically modernman was reconstructed on the basis of genetic and linguistic pieces of evidence:the main conclusion was that these two approaches reflect a common underlyinghistory, the history of our past still frozen in the genes of modern populations. From a linguistic distance matrix whoseelements are the fraction of words with the same lexical root for any pair oflanguages and its transformation to make the matrix elements proportional totime of differentiation, we were able to reconstruct a linguistic tree. The root ofthe tree separates Albanians from the others, with a reproducibility rate (theerror in reconstructing the tree) of 71 percent. The next oldest branch isArmenian. The simplest interpretation is that the language of the first migrant Anatolian farmers survives today in two direct descendants, Albanian and Armenian, which diverged from the oldest pre-Indo-European languages indifferent directions but remained relatively close to the point of origin. If we give to the first split the time depth of the beginning of the expansionof the pre-Indo-European Anatolian farmers, about 9,000 years ago, we can then calculate that the origin of the European branch dates to about 6,000 years ago...... The oldest languages, Armenian,Albanian and Greek, are among the oldest in both trees, but there is some disagreement in the relevant dichotomies. These are, however, those that have the highest errors in both trees, as shown by the percentage of agreement amongrepetitions of the analysis.The other discrepancy is the dichotomy of Celtic, which in our tree is theoldest of the European subfamilies, while in theirs the oldest is Balto-Slavic.Our bootstrap value is higher than in their tree, indicating our method hassmaller error in this part of the tree. There is information from other disciplines that supports our tree for both discrepancies.If history can support some separation dates, though very weakly,geography may again be of help. Albanian is weakly related to Indic Iranian,while in our tree it is nearest to the root, closest to Armenian and Greek, inagreement with geography. Given the long distance between Albania and southAsia, and the local tree uncertainty it may be better to make the first dichotomyof the tree as a branch leading to a trichotomy of Albania, Greece and Armenia,corresponding with what remains of the first spread of farmers from Anatolia,and another branch leading to all the rest, ...From a general point of view it is of some interest to explore how thelinguistic classification correlates with genetic data. Poloni et al. (1997) showed,for the Y chromosome, an important level of population genetics structure among human populations, mainly due to genetic differences among distinctlinguistic groups of populations. A multivariate analysis based on geneticdistances between populations shows that human population structure inferredfrom the Y chromosome corresponds broadly to language families (r = .567, P <.001), in agreement with autosomal and mitochondrial data. Times of divergenceof linguistic families, estimated from their internal level of geneticdifferentiation, are fairly concordant with current archaeological and linguistichypotheses. Variability of the p49a,f/TaqI Y polymorphic marker is alsosignificantly correlated with the geographic location of the populations (r = .613,P < .001), reflecting the fact that distinct linguistic groups generally also occupydistinct geographic areas. Comparison of Y-chromosome and mtDNApolymorphisms in a restricted set of populations shows a globally high level ofcongruence, but it also allows identification of unequal maternal and paternalcontributions to the gene pool of several populations.... The ties between biologyand linguistics were already evident since the times of Darwin, who in chapterXIV of his The Origin of Species wrote:“If we possessed a perfect pedigree of the mankind, a genealogical arrangement of the races of man would afford the best classification of thevarious languages now spoken throughout the world; and if all extinctlanguages, and all intermediate and slowly changing dialects, were to beincluded, such an arrangement would be the only possible one. Yet it mightbe that some ancient language had altered very little and had given rise tofew new languages, whilst others had altered much owing to the spreading,isolation, and state of civilization of the several co-descended races, and had thus given rise to many new dialects and languages. The various degrees ofdifference between the languages of the same stock, would have to beexpressed by groups subordinate to groups; but the proper or even the onlypossible arrangement would still be genealogical; and this would be strictlynatural, as it would connect together all languages, extinct and recent, by theclosest affinities, and would give the filiation and origin of each tongue.“The increasing resolving power of modern genetic data makes it possible tofollow Darwin and to use the genetic phylogeny of our species to infer theearliest branches of a hypothetical linguistic tree. The most comprehensivegenetic phylogeny reconstructed in Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1988) was used byRuhlen (1994) to draw the tree of origin of human languages (some reference dates from genetic and archaeological evidence have been added). The oldestlinguistic families must be African: Khoisan is probably the oldest and Afro-Asiatic the most recent, while Niger-Kordofanian and Nilo-Saharian believed bysome linguists to descend from an ancestor tongue, and the Congo- Saharan,were probably spoken at an intermediate time. A more exhaustive discussion ofthis hypothetical tree can be found in Cavalli-Sforza (2000). As the genetic data improves with the inclusion of more representatives from those geographicalareas of the world where the sampling is still scanty, the tree will be morecomplex but it is likely that its main features will remain unchanged.In conclusion, our present genome keeps the record of its past evolution with an impressive richness of detail that is also reflected by our languages. Genes and languages contribute to the understanding of human history byhighlighting human diversity; both are instrumental in giving some of the silent voices of our past a chance to be heard. ReferencesAmmerman, A.J., Cavalli-Sforza, L.L (1984). Neolithic Transition and the Genetics ofPopulations in Europe. Now, lets not forget what . Arnaiz-Villena, and his colleagues said about the 150 Greek men and their certain 'frequent' presence of an alele present only among Sub Saharan and E African samples. ;D www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=PubMed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=11260506&ordinalpos=1&itool=Entrez System2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus
|
|
|
Post by kartadolofonos on Nov 30, 2007 20:09:56 GMT -5
|
|