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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 23, 2007 4:15:44 GMT -5
At least to be mentioned in history somewhere that you PLANTED yourself in Betlehem!!!!!!! If you do not PLANT...but simply...ARE...what can I call it?! And I wander: why you ARE?? Is impossible!!!!!! Because I happen to have a richer history, it means...you WERE not here!!!!
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 23, 2007 6:25:53 GMT -5
Teuta,you weren't supposed to have read that post.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 23, 2007 10:25:54 GMT -5
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Nov 23, 2007 12:43:46 GMT -5
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Nov 23, 2007 13:13:12 GMT -5
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 23, 2007 13:18:50 GMT -5
Hi Rex, what does the circled words mean? Honey..it doesn't matter where they went..... you weren't there... you guys think because you got planted in a certain geographical area you can assume the history that goes with it... Maybe I can go and plant myself in Bethlehem and say I am a descendant of Jesus.... people would would think I am joke.... now people are think you are a joke... This is one of the few times I even bother to read some of your posts... cause I thought you might have changed... \ LOL! Make up your mind. Before you said Albanians are the closest in culture to Greeks, now you're of the opinion that Albanians were planted there just bec. it suits you now to insult Albanians and me. Canaris, to most Albanians here you were and are and will always be our crack shaka when it comes to anything historical. Just like Admin who once called us "Dacians", then now in his latest post, refers to a linguist who again said that Albanian belongs to the Illyrian Language and confirms again for all that Illyrian was neither satem or centem in its origin. Most likely not indo european at all. Listen, both of you, make up your minds and stick to your beliefs. This backswitch you two make on these boards make you both look infantile in your approach to history in your views or opinions of the Albanian people. That is caused by the fact that so far there hasn't been any discovery of any information about our origins and from where we came from. So, until that day comes when our original prehistoric link to the land we inhabit now is revealed to all, or dislinks us from it, then you should have something to say. Otherwise Keep Albanians out of your insults to me and be a man, attack me not the people and history I descend from.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Nov 23, 2007 13:23:49 GMT -5
in my hand me down history the Greeks that came into contact with us Pelasgians were called Cecropida
AlbHoney ....its just the authors name ..Gregory Zorzos ...PELASGIAN ECONOMISTS
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 23, 2007 13:45:13 GMT -5
Come on Rex tell us about the name Zorzos ... and don't forget anyone can write a book..... even you can Rex...
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 23, 2007 13:46:19 GMT -5
Thanks Rex, r you partying on the 28th? I went to your sites and found them fascinating. The letters resemble the Babylonian ones on the Gilgamesh Stone and the Albanian translation makes much more sense. I've sent them on to my relatives in this study. Thanks Rex.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Nov 23, 2007 13:49:03 GMT -5
no party this year ....
I have the light/candle on for 40 days
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Post by Niklianos on Nov 23, 2007 13:57:04 GMT -5
Teuta and Albanesehoney i will respond when i get a chance. It is the holidays in the U.S and I am very busy with family and friends.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Nov 23, 2007 14:00:12 GMT -5
Come on Rex tell us about the name Zorzos ... and don't forget anyone can write a book..... even you can Rex... oh ..I dont know the book or author ...but its about ancient economies...and that its based on the pelasgians being the first economists see here: www.geocities.com/grzorzos/econ100.html................................... "and don't forget anyone can write a book" yes ,and we Albanians sure know Canaris ....many books written by greeks in the last century ....
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 23, 2007 14:27:34 GMT -5
www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/History/Pelasgian.htmlAncient Greek writers used the name Pelasgians (Greek: Pelasgoí, s. Pelasgós) to refer to groups of people who preceded the Hellenes and still dwelt in several locations in mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean, as neighbors of the Hellenes, into the 5th century. The ancient Greek references to the Pelasgians are confusing. However, it is agreed that Pelasgians had spoken a "barbaric" (non-Greek) language. The French author Zacharie Mayani (1899 – ) put forth a thesis that the Etruscan language had links to the Albanian language. This thesis places the Albanian language outside the group of Indo-European languages sharing one branch with Etruscans as well as ancient Greek. Nermin Vlora Falaschi published a translation of the Lemnos stele on this basis, with the help of Arvanite Albanian. The references below by Falaschi, Catapano, Marchiano, Mathieu Aref, Faverial, D'Angely, Kolias, and Cabej support this point of view. Whether the Pelasgian language was pre-Indo-European or not, and the extent to which it was a single language or not, are modern disputes that are colored by contemporary nationalist issues. Among the nations for whom Pelasgian descent has been claimed are Albanians, and Romanians. There is also a theory suggesting that the Philistines or Peleset of the ancient Levant were connected with the Pelasgians. Scholars have since come to use the term "Pelasgian", somewhat indiscriminately, to indicate all the autochthonous inhabitants of the Aegean lands before the arrival of the Greeks; a number of other recent theories as to their nature are also discussed below. Classical Greek uses of "Pelasgian" In Homer The ethnonym Pelasgoí (Pelasgians) is of unknown etymology. It first occurs in the poems of Homer: the Pelasgians in the Iliad appear among the allies of Troy. In the section known to scholars as the The Catalogue of Ships, which otherwise preserves a strict geographical order, they stand between the Hellespontine cities and the Thracians of south-east Europe, i.e. on the Hellespontine border of Thrace (2.840-843). Homer calls their town or district "Larissa" and characterises it as fertile, and its inhabitants as celebrated for their spearsmanship. He records their chiefs as Hippothous and Pylaeus, sons of Lethus son of Teutamus. Iliad, 10.428-429, describes their camping ground between the town of Troy and the sea.Funny but it is known that Achilles was born and raised in Larissa, Pelasgian by Homer's definition of their place and allies of Troy. www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=achilles%2C+birthplace+Larissabooks.google.com/books?id=8bE0t0UDysoC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=achilles+birthplace+larissa&source=web&ots=i1aNFXdwp7&sig=bVWyh4DNaJbhXEr6y4V1OPVPoIAThe Odyssey, 17.175-177, places the Pelasgians in Crete, together with two apparently indigenous and two immigrant peoples (Achaeans and Dorians), but gives no indication to which class the Pelasgians belong. Lemnos (Iliad, 7.467; 14. 230) has no Pelasgians, but a Minyan dynasty. Two other passages (Iliad, 2.681-684; 16.233-235) apply the epithet "Pelasgic" to a district called Argos about Mount Othrys in southern Thessaly, and to the temple of Zeus at Dodona, in Epirus. But neither passage mentions actual Pelasgians; Hellenes and Achaeans specifically people the Thessalian Argos, and Dodona hosts Perrhaebians and Aenianes (Iliad, 2.750) who are nowhere described as Pelasgian. It looks therefore as if "Pelasgian" was used in Homeric epic connotatively, to mean either "formerly occupied by Pelasgians" or simply "of immemorial age." The name "Pelasgians" first appears in the poems of Homer: the Pelasgians appear in the Iliad among the allies of Troy. In the section known to scholars as The Catalogue of Ships, which otherwise preserves a strict geographical order, they stand between the Hellespontine cities and the Thracians of south-east Europe, i.e. on the Hellespontine border of Thrace (2.840-843). Homer calls their town or district "Larissa" and characterises it as fertile, and its inhabitants as celebrated for their spearsmanship. He records their chiefs as Hippothous and Pylaeus, sons of Lethus son of Teutamus. Iliad, 10.428-429, describes their camping ground between the town of Troy and the sea; but this obviously proves nothing about their habitat in time of peace. Post-Homeric Strabo quotes Hesiod as expanding on the Homeric phrase, calling Dodona "seat of Pelasgians" (fragment 225); he speaks also of an eponymous Pelasgus, the father of the culture-hero of Arcadia, Lycaon. After Hesiod, a number of early authors flesh out his brief statement. An early genealogist, Asius of Samos, describes Pelasgus as the first man, literally born of the earth to create a race of men. An early poet, Hecataeus, makes Pelasgus king of Thessaly (expounding Iliad, 2.681-684); Acusilaus applies this Homeric passage to the Peloponnesian Argos, the Argolid, and engrafts the Hesiodic Pelasgus, father of Lycaon, into a Peloponnesian genealogy. Hellanicus repeats this identification a generation later, and identifies this Argive or Arcadian Pelasgus with the Thessalian Pelasgus of Hecataeus. Aeschylus regards Pelasgus as earthborn (Supplices I, sqq.), as in Asius, and ruler of a kingdom stretching from Argos to Dodona and the Strymon; but in Prometheus 879, the "Pelasgian" land simply means Argos. Sophocles takes the same view (Inachus, fragment. 256) and for the first time introduces the ethnonym Tyrrhenoi, apparently as synonymous with "Pelasgians". Euripedes calls the inhabitants of Argos Pelasgian Orestes 857, and 933, if genuine. Hellenic people There are also theories, based on a number of classical quotes, that the Pelasgians were Hellenes (Greeks), and the direct ancestors of later Greek tribes. Some of the components of these theories are as follows: That the term "barbarian" had a dual meaning. Aside from meaning "non-Hellenic," the term "barbarian" has been used by Greek tribes/city-states to deride other Greek tribes/city-states that were deemed unsophisticated in their use of the Hellenic language/culture (Foreigners and Barbarians). When Demosthenes of Athens attacked Philip II of Macedon, in the Third Philippic, Demosthenes deemed the Macedonians as non-Hellenic, unrelated to the Hellenes, and not even worthy of being deemed as "barbarians." The utilization of the term in many ancient Greek accounts is representative of the competition that existed among various Greek city-states, tribes, and civilizations. ( We told you Phillip and Alexander WERE NOT CONSIDERED GREEK OR EVEN A GREEK TRIBE by Demosthenes and most of southern Greeks. ) From the dual meaning of the term "barbarian", some propose that when Herodotus deemed the Pelasgians as "barbaric", he did not imply that they were non-Hellenes. In support of this interpretation, these theorists point to the passage where Herodotus deems the Hellenes a branch of the Pelasgians (Herodotus on the Pelasgians and the Early Hellenes). Herodotus 1.57 concludes that the Athenians "changed language" when they "joined the Hellenic body"; but this may be open to different interpretations. Herodotus also tells of a war in which the Athenians expelled the Pelasgians from Attica to Lemnos. Yet, Herodotus is known for not distinguishing the difference between dialects and languages that are completely separate (Herodotus' Conception of Foreign Languages). As a result of the ambiguity of Herodotus in distinguishing languages from dialects, one can propose that the language of the Pelasgians was a "barbaric" (or unsophisticated) form of Hellenic as opposed to it being non-Hellenic. That the autochthonous nature of the Athenians — an ancient belief to which Herodotus, Isocrates, Plutarch and others attest — implies they are descended from the autochthonous Pelasgians. The Athenians deemed themselves "true Hellenes" due to their well-developed society. www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/History/Pelasgian.htmlhmmmph, this being a Greek site with Greek ads and such...confirms the discord between historians about the Pelasgians. How nice Greeks NOW like to claim descent from Pelasgians, with their interpretations of Herodotus, when these ancients originally considered them animal barbarians. lolol
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Japodian
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Post by Japodian on Nov 23, 2007 14:27:44 GMT -5
Interesting thing is that the begining of Illyrian ancestry thesis firstly emerged among South Slavs, i.e. Serbs and Croats. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movementAs for Pelasgians, I believe that they weren't Indo-Europeans but Proto-Europeans, and by this closer to nowadays Georgians, Basques, Berbers and so... I do not claim that there cannot be traits of Pelasgian culture in both Albania and Greece, but that the claim of direct descending hasn't got any sense. Also Pelasgian society and religion was more matriarchal, which can be even now found on Lesvos and Lemnos, while both Greek and Illyrian pantheon was patriarchal.
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 23, 2007 15:35:56 GMT -5
Your Illyrian movement was discounted by later historians, considering it all stems from Napoleon's 1800's conquest of part of the Balkans and calling it Illyricum and connecting them to his bloodline. Which partly may be true but unlikely for the majority who view themselves as Slavs.
"I do not claim that there cannot be traits of Pelasgian culture in both Albania and Greece, but that the claim of direct descending hasn't got any sense. Also Pelasgian society and religion was more matriarchal, which can be even now found on Lesvos and Lemnos, while both Greek and Illyrian pantheon was patriarchal"
10,000 years ago man learned that male bull sperm can impregnate 20 cows and leave his seed behind. This occured when man settled and was taught farming methods in the fertile crescent. Prior to that, humans worshipped woman as creators of life, when they were hunters and gatherers. Throughout the world, this transition is recorded in pictorials on rocks in caves and wherever man existed.
So, your argument of no direct descent to Pelagians still does not account for language/letters direct descent for the Albanians.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 23, 2007 17:26:29 GMT -5
What does this have to do with Albanians...?
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 23, 2007 19:19:36 GMT -5
What does this have to do with Albanians...? Nermin Vlora Falaschi published a translation of the Lemnos stele on this basis, with the help of Arvanite Albanian. The references below by Falaschi, Catapano, Marchiano, Mathieu Aref, Faverial, D'Angely, Kolias, and Cabej support this point of view. www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/History/Pelasgian.htmlbooks.google.com/books?id=-TF6VR7Mth8C&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=pelasgian+stele+of+lemnos&source=web&ots=O6Pqu_g0Jo&sig=-0CFWgWUTX59nOoP5GIn7H9jrzsStele of Lemnos Pelasgian Albanian English This entire bustrophedic registration, where the letters “TH” and “H” can be read continuously, in order to represent sighs and sobs, as we would today make “AH” and “OH”, contains tormenting complains funeral, obviously for the dead person that had been also a great hero, like demonstrates to the repeated pride of all the relationship. We rewrite our Stele in a melted shape adapting it to the modern era: “MOURNING, we are in full mourning, anguish, ill luck all over, women covered with black veils. Grief you have given to the kinship, oh kinsman! He belongs to our stock, Ah! , Oh! He was torn away from us, what misfortune. But in order which guilt, this disaster? Gelid is his golden throne, Ah! Of his fame we were proud, Oh! Grief, grief in the whole world, tearing him away, we are beheaded! This grief struck us suddently, ah! Alas, who knows for what fault? Oh! Our kinsman he was, Why ever did he struck us with such grief? In Grief and despair, ah! tears choke us, Oh! He, who kept up our stock, for what fault, now does he extinguish it? Ah! Oh! Oh! precious he was, knife wounds, oh misfortune, he suffered so much! In Silence, never uttering an insult! Ah! Oh! You, kinsman, you have beheaded us, Oh! You, great affliction you have given us, Ah! Oh!” This is what has to do with Albanian.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 23, 2007 20:16:50 GMT -5
Big chit...Albanians incorporated it in their language much later on...it's like diaspora Greeks calling 'floor' and 'roof' 'flori" and roofi' and claiming it's part of their language....
Anything you find in the Albanian language that even remotely resembles any of the old stuff ..is simply material that was borrowed...when you first appeared in the Balkans which is anywhere from 900 to 1150 AD. capiche? If the Slavs had no alphabet and a way of writing and we had to teach them..what makes you so special? I mean look at the Fyromians ..they are playing the same skin flute like you guys...they ultimately forgot who taught them what...We educated the Romans... then the rest of the rif raf....
If it makes you feel better and lends a raison d'etre in your lives ..by all means go for it.... no one takes it seriously..
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 23, 2007 20:25:31 GMT -5
Canaris, I said it before, the verdict has still not come in yet about the Pelasgian origin of the Albanians and their clear connection to this stele. Your Greek is indo european...this Stele and the Mycenaeans who lived there WERE NOT, as scholars all agree, and their language was not Greek. If any group greekified the stele, it was the Greeks. That is why there is NO agreement among the historical community that the pre 800 BC people of this area were Greeks/Hellenes. Check it out for yourself, about Greeks being Pelasgian or even if that Stele being correctly and coherently translated by Greeks. books.google.com/books?id=cqonVzmGwRIC&pg=PA377&lpg=PA377&dq=controversy+of+pelasgian+being+greek&source=web&ots=OAIiK8If3O&sig=txqon6btw0RTE-rJEfYO4Uu2BJEwww.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=controversy+of+pelasgian+being+greek&btnG=SearchWe don't care what you capiche about Albanians. If it makes you happy to think there is no controversy about the Lemnos Stele, by all means believe what you want. But to many in the historical field, they see clearly that this Stele translated using the Albanian terms makes clear sense about the mourning of a lost son. Believe what you like about Albanians and we'll continue digging for more connections to our people pre nationalists 1878 Hellas Greeks. "Anything you find in the Albanian language that even remotely resembles any of the old stuff ..is simply material that was borrowed..." The same can be said of the dark ages Greek authors in the employ of churches, as monk scribes. Anything they found in their 'koine' that resembled any of the old stuff, was simply material that was borrowed...from us. "If the Slavs had no alphabet and a way of writing and we had to teach them..what makes you so special?"We have our own 36 letters and they're not based on koine Greek, circa 4th century AD. If anything, Greeks today could just as well be considered transplants conducted under the ageis of their Turkish overlords. So, don't be so smug about any of Greek claims of being aboriginals of this land.
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 23, 2007 20:53:56 GMT -5
You forgot to mention that the Albanian poet Nermin Vlora Falaschi published a pseudo linguistic translation of the Lemnos stele (L'Etrusco lingua viva Roma).
By an Albanian poet NOW his an historian and a linguistic ? Wow you guy's really aren't paying attention to what the ancient historians such as Herodotes let alone your own famous historians real ones that is.
This is a joke right ? The Albanians are older then the Greeks / Hellenes ?
The Albanian poet Nermin Vlora Falaschi published pseudo linguistic articles ? You with me ?
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