Post by kartadolofonos on Nov 3, 2007 19:02:21 GMT -5
guess Epirus really is Greek Maybe this will teach everbody that Epirus was not Illyrian as the Albanians claim. The Albanians can certainly dream on though 
"Arhea Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"
"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."
Pyrrhos of Epiros from an inscription of a dedication to the temple of Minerva Itonis:
"Pyrrhus, descendant of Molossian kings,
These shields to thee, Itonian goddess, brings,
Won from the valiant Gaul when in the fight
Antigonus and all his host took flight'
'Tis not to-day or yesterday alone
That for brave deeds the Aeacidae are known."
It is well known fact that the Molossians and Aecidae were descendants of Neoptolemus, Achilles son, and by relation the first and original 'Hellenes' of Homer.
As shown in the beggining of the topic except Strabo we have more literal evidence from the ancient writers:
"XI. War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles."
Truth be told, the Epirotes then, as today, wanted nothing to do with the Illyrians:
"When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by Bardylis, the Illyrian, who commanded a considerably larger army, he dispatched the non-combatant portion of his subjects to the neighbouring district of Aetolia, and spread the report that he was yielding up his towns and possessions to the Aetolians. He himself, with those who could bear arms, placed ambuscades here and there on the mountains and in other inaccessible places. The Illyrians, fearful lest the possessions of the Molossians should be seized by the Aetolians, began to race along in disorder, in their eagerness for plunder. As soon as they became scattered, Harrybas, emerging from his concealment and taking them unawares, routed them and put them to flight."
At Dodona was a prehistoric oracle devoted to the Greek God Zeus and the Mother Goddess identified at other sites with Rea or Gaia but called Dione The shrine of Dodona was the oldest Hellenic oracle, according to the fifth-century historian Herodotus and in fact dates to proto-Hellenic times, perhaps as early as the second millennium BCE. Priests and priestesses in the sacred grove interpreted the rustling of the oak (or beech) leaves to determine the correct actions to be taken. Greek oracles are often misconstrued as having predicted the future.
At Dodona, Zeus joined a pre-Greek name to his own and was worshipped there as "Zeus Molossos" or as "Zeus Naios." Originally an oracle of the Mother Goddess, the oracle was shared by Zeus and Dione (whose name, like "Zeus," simply means "deity"). Many dedicatory inscriptions recovered from the site mention both "Zeus Naios" and "Dione." Elsewhere in Classical Greece,Dione was relegated by Classical times to a minor role, an aspect of Zeus's more usual consort, Hera.
When Homer wrote the Iliad (circa 750 BCE), no buildings were present, and the Priests slept on the ground Not until the 4th B.C., was a small stone temple to Zeus added to the site. By the time Euripides mentioned Dodona (fragmentary play Melanippe), and Herodotus wrote about the oracle, priestesses had been restored. Though it never eclipsed the Oracle of Apollo atDelphi, Dodona gained a reputation far beyond Greece. In Apollonius of Rhodes Argonautica, a retelling of an older story of Jason and the Argonauts, Jasons ship, the "Argo", had the gift of prophecy, because it contained an oak timber spirited from Dodona.
Archaeological excavations over more than a century have recovered artifacts, Many now at the National Archaeological Museum, Athens, and some in the archaeological Museum at nearby Ioannina.
The oldest archaelogical evidence that show the Greekness of the Epirotans was a Prehistoric vase as also and the tumulus consrtuction. Kantharos-shaped cup from grave 5 of tumulus A at Merope-Pogonion (district of Ioannina). Traces of black paint are preserved on the lower part of the body (h. 0,184 m.).Tumulus are built in the classical mucenean (as called) and found not only in Epirus but also and in Macedonia.
Both are dated to the end of the 11th or the beginning of the 10th century B.C.
Here a map of the Dodona
The Molossians were Greeks. Their mythical "anchestor" was the son of Achilles, the leader of the Myrmidons, who participated in the Troyan war
and the first people ever to be refered to as "Greeks". Insriptions left behind from them are all in Greek; in a particular north-western Greek
dialect to be exact. Similar holds BTW for the Macedonians but there the argumeent is that the insriptions found are in many different dialects.
Since I am at it, here's a little "present" from E. Borza, one of the historians that dispute the Greekness of the Macedonians. I am sure it will beenlightening...
"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group,
the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by
different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to
those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and
Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis."
When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the
central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled
plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus),
As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots."
"The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia...."
"Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus."
"Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these
tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large
tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes
were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect)."
"The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Achilles.."
That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;"
"Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking"
"however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization."
"In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland."
"The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group."
Molossi (Ìïëïóóïß), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Ìïëïóóßá) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself.
They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.
"Arhea Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros"
"Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus."
Pyrrhos of Epiros from an inscription of a dedication to the temple of Minerva Itonis:
"Pyrrhus, descendant of Molossian kings,
These shields to thee, Itonian goddess, brings,
Won from the valiant Gaul when in the fight
Antigonus and all his host took flight'
'Tis not to-day or yesterday alone
That for brave deeds the Aeacidae are known."
It is well known fact that the Molossians and Aecidae were descendants of Neoptolemus, Achilles son, and by relation the first and original 'Hellenes' of Homer.
As shown in the beggining of the topic except Strabo we have more literal evidence from the ancient writers:
"XI. War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles."
Truth be told, the Epirotes then, as today, wanted nothing to do with the Illyrians:
"When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by Bardylis, the Illyrian, who commanded a considerably larger army, he dispatched the non-combatant portion of his subjects to the neighbouring district of Aetolia, and spread the report that he was yielding up his towns and possessions to the Aetolians. He himself, with those who could bear arms, placed ambuscades here and there on the mountains and in other inaccessible places. The Illyrians, fearful lest the possessions of the Molossians should be seized by the Aetolians, began to race along in disorder, in their eagerness for plunder. As soon as they became scattered, Harrybas, emerging from his concealment and taking them unawares, routed them and put them to flight."
At Dodona was a prehistoric oracle devoted to the Greek God Zeus and the Mother Goddess identified at other sites with Rea or Gaia but called Dione The shrine of Dodona was the oldest Hellenic oracle, according to the fifth-century historian Herodotus and in fact dates to proto-Hellenic times, perhaps as early as the second millennium BCE. Priests and priestesses in the sacred grove interpreted the rustling of the oak (or beech) leaves to determine the correct actions to be taken. Greek oracles are often misconstrued as having predicted the future.
At Dodona, Zeus joined a pre-Greek name to his own and was worshipped there as "Zeus Molossos" or as "Zeus Naios." Originally an oracle of the Mother Goddess, the oracle was shared by Zeus and Dione (whose name, like "Zeus," simply means "deity"). Many dedicatory inscriptions recovered from the site mention both "Zeus Naios" and "Dione." Elsewhere in Classical Greece,Dione was relegated by Classical times to a minor role, an aspect of Zeus's more usual consort, Hera.
When Homer wrote the Iliad (circa 750 BCE), no buildings were present, and the Priests slept on the ground Not until the 4th B.C., was a small stone temple to Zeus added to the site. By the time Euripides mentioned Dodona (fragmentary play Melanippe), and Herodotus wrote about the oracle, priestesses had been restored. Though it never eclipsed the Oracle of Apollo atDelphi, Dodona gained a reputation far beyond Greece. In Apollonius of Rhodes Argonautica, a retelling of an older story of Jason and the Argonauts, Jasons ship, the "Argo", had the gift of prophecy, because it contained an oak timber spirited from Dodona.
Archaeological excavations over more than a century have recovered artifacts, Many now at the National Archaeological Museum, Athens, and some in the archaeological Museum at nearby Ioannina.
The oldest archaelogical evidence that show the Greekness of the Epirotans was a Prehistoric vase as also and the tumulus consrtuction. Kantharos-shaped cup from grave 5 of tumulus A at Merope-Pogonion (district of Ioannina). Traces of black paint are preserved on the lower part of the body (h. 0,184 m.).Tumulus are built in the classical mucenean (as called) and found not only in Epirus but also and in Macedonia.
Both are dated to the end of the 11th or the beginning of the 10th century B.C.
Here a map of the Dodona
The Molossians were Greeks. Their mythical "anchestor" was the son of Achilles, the leader of the Myrmidons, who participated in the Troyan war
and the first people ever to be refered to as "Greeks". Insriptions left behind from them are all in Greek; in a particular north-western Greek
dialect to be exact. Similar holds BTW for the Macedonians but there the argumeent is that the insriptions found are in many different dialects.
Since I am at it, here's a little "present" from E. Borza, one of the historians that dispute the Greekness of the Macedonians. I am sure it will beenlightening...
"Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group,
the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by
different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to
those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and
Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis."
When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the
central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled
plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus),
As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots."
"The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia...."
"Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus."
"Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these
tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large
tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes
were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect)."
"The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Achilles.."
That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;"
"Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking"
"however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization."
"In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland."
"The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group."
Molossi (Ìïëïóóïß), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Ìïëïóóßá) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself.
They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.
?? (from Achilles?
