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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 9, 2007 17:00:32 GMT -5
And Karta,
your map shows nothing more then Epir was...Epir...
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Post by leandros nikon on Nov 9, 2007 17:15:21 GMT -5
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 9, 2007 18:12:04 GMT -5
re paidia den to eida afto to topic  |
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 9, 2007 18:16:35 GMT -5
Since you refer to evidence, what is your evidence of this? Cite sources please. Sure.............
"(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today's Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.
"(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others."
About the Albanians, Wilkes writes "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS." Wilkes was proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European lineage. That's the way it is with our culture, which is mythomaniac, national-communist, romantic, self-glorifying. You can't say anything objective without people getting angry. The Albanians are a people who still dream. That is what they are like in their conversations, their literature...In light of Hoxha and 'pyramid schemes, Albanians are a people who still dream. That's just the way they are..." Fatos Lubojia - Albanian historian
Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi writes:I can say that today appear a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths (About Illyrian & Epirote descent) and courageously accept the scientific truth that they are not whatsoever connected to these ancient peoples. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage."
Ardian Vebiu
Famous Albanian historian writes:My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism. |
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 9, 2007 18:44:05 GMT -5
Before Achiles conquered Epir, Faeton was the First King of Molosis and Thespriots. He was one of those who arrived in Epir, along with Pellazgians. (I don't see here mentioned they were Helens nor Illyrians) Achiles conquered Epir (according to the Myth) and after his conquer, he named one of his sons Pyrros. This Pyrros, was the son of Akil and the daughter of Kleod, Lasana. Kleod was the son of the STAR (who was the son of Heracles) The other Kings who followed were in a state of barbaric confusion and the period is a dark one. (So, this must be very interesting if enlightened) The first to be mentioned after a long period of darkness was Tarip; this created cities according to Greek costums, build schools and laws. Thus, he had a good reputation. From him was born Alketa, the father of Ariva, and from his marriage with Troyada was born Eakid, who married Ftia, the daughter of Menon from Thesalia, who became famous during the Llamiak war (and here is the war of Athenians against Antipatros of Macedonia in order to get free) From the marriage of Eakidi and Ftia were born: two daughters (Diedama and Troada) and a son, Pyrro. Now, who were the "enemies" of Pyrro and why was he compelled to go and get saved by Glaukus? As per Alcon, the Molosian, when HE (only one person) went as a suitor declaring himself Greek, what beats me is the exlusion of Epiriots MAIN tribes in Pan-Helenic League!! Should I doubt the origin of one person only (Alcon???who knows what his mother might have done?) or the expulsion of the entire tribe??? And Arxhileas, I have told before: don't tell me (actually not you, but those pseudo-historians who for a better life in foreign country would sell their mothers) Albanians are not Illyrians...but what are Albanians and why your historians didn't write anything about their arrival, but wrote about "Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania" - this is when Albanoi first are mentioned by YOUR great geographer, Ptolemy of Alexandra, in the 2nd century BC. Really,,,I want to know this! Did we really come from Caucas??? Because we're trying to "invent" history here, in such people such this insane Ptolemy must not be taken seriously, but the "illustred" Resuli and Co. are serious?  ? Everybody keeps telling me Albanians arrived from somewhere, but nobody is able to find me a document written (even in antique times nor Byzantine period) where and overall, HOW did they come and settled...just onto the heart of the Empire, facing Rome and closed to main 2 seas, a very strategic area!!!!!!! Yes, you're right: again the same!  |
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Post by leandros nikon on Nov 9, 2007 19:11:09 GMT -5
the word is not EPIR but EPIROS...and it's certainly a GREEK word...when you write epir you give me the creeps...more tomorrow...
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 9, 2007 22:37:18 GMT -5
I thought Albanians loved Wilkes.... it's funny..how they adapt to new historians all the time.... they quickly validate any bullcrap that comes out of any one of them as long as it agrees with them.
I have been searching for insight on Albanian history between 1 and 1000 ad... and have not have much luck.... other than a mention here and there of their existence at around 1000 ad...
Were you guys in hibernation?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 10, 2007 0:45:28 GMT -5
Canaris,
I would suggest you to re-read very carefully the Illiad and Odisea as to begin with...
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Post by tripwire on Nov 10, 2007 0:58:51 GMT -5
www.livius.org/li-ln/livy/periochae/periochae041.htmlLivy: Periochae 41-45 Titus Livius or Livy (59 BCE - 17 CE): Roman historian, author of the authorized version of the history of the Roman republic. Many of the 142 books of the History of Rome from its beginning are now lost; however, we do have an excerpt, the Periochae. When king Gentius of the Illyrians revolted, he was also defeated, by praetor Lucius Anicius, and surrendered with his wife and children and relatives and was sent to Rome. Envoys were sent from Alexandria, on behalf of queen Cleopatra [II] and king Ptolemy [VI Philometor], to complain about king Antiochus [IV Epiphanes], who had attacked them. When Perseus, who had asked for help from king Eumenes [II Soter] of Pergamon and king Gentius of Illyricum, did not pay the money he had promised, was left by them.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 10, 2007 1:52:01 GMT -5
Huh?You are missing the point.. up to now we are assuming that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians.... in very loosely applied terms... somehow there is a 1000 year gap missing out of this puzzle.... when we put that together than in all fairness we can connect you with your past...
50 years ago..most Albanians would have spit in your face if you would have mentioned to them their predecessors were Illyrian ... nowadays even the Bulgar-Slavs of Fyrom... are claiming to be Illyrian...
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 10, 2007 8:40:10 GMT -5
Archilarius, I said evidence, not nonsense from obscure pulp fiction writers. lolol. Their works have all been trampled on by serious archaeologists and historians. Just like Black Athena and the African genetic connections to Greece has been questioned by serious scholars. Start with Edward Gibbon's words regarding the Albanians.  That's the problem there ain't any thing what one would call as evidence to directly connect the Albanians with the Illyrains. There can only be sources "quotes" like the ones I provided to you by your own honnest respected historians which pretty much say you're loony to think you have any connections with the Illyrians. That's the sad reality of it. Now your turn to provide or enlighten us to your sources as asked by me before you did I bet my 2 cents there wont be any forth coming.  Because there ain't any available, and I do mean hard core evidence as nikon and the other Greeks have provided  We've proved and still can prove without a doubt the Greekness of Epiros and it's heroes were Greeks ;D As for black Athena, you have issues to believe that tks tsk  Muan great to be a Greek ;D |
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 10, 2007 8:41:45 GMT -5
And I am directing my comments to the kids on here because the majority of honnest Albanians pretty much think you're loony too.
Cheers.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Nov 10, 2007 20:51:58 GMT -5
[glow=green,2,300]Albanians are the direct descendants of the Illyrians. To say so would ignore the fact that an entire nation from the Caucasus, also called Albania, was transported to Illyria by the Ottomans. Perhaps the current Albanians are mixed with the ancient Illyrians[/glow] [glow=red,2,300]Albanians claims that the Albanian language is older than Greek in the region and that maybe once Greeks and even Serbs spoke Albanian.[/glow]  Epirus was still on the periphery of the Greek world1318 Serbs and Albanians overran the area, and in 1430 the Ottoman Turks annexed it. Under Turkish rule, the region suffered from overcultivation and deforestation that caused soil erosion and depopulation. In the 18th century Turkish sovereignty over Epirus was threatened by a Turko-Albanian Ali Pasa Tepelenë, who was recognized in 1778 by Turkey as pasha of Ioánnina. His oppressive rule was extended by 1810 to most of the Peloponnese, central Greece, and parts of western Macedonia and was a leading cause of the War of Greek Independence (1821-29). Much of northern Epirus was united with Greece in 1913, leaving minorities on both sides of the Greek-Albanian frontier. In 1939 Italy annexed all of Albania but in 1940, after attempting to invade Greece, was pushed out of Greek Epirus by the Greek army and lost much of northern Epirus until the German attack on Greece. The German occupation followed (1940-44) until the Allies restored the Greek-Albanian frontier. |
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Post by tripwire on Nov 10, 2007 22:19:25 GMT -5
If it makes you happy..please..keep on dreaming of Epirus..lol
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Post by kartadolofonos on Nov 11, 2007 0:10:25 GMT -5
Hey Shqiptar Keep on dreamin' Of the way it could be In a fairy tale land First of all EPIRUS WAS, IS, AND WILL BE FOR EVER GREEK. And if you want to get the South Epirus, please come and get it. We are waiting for you to annexed all Albanian land to Greece |
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 11, 2007 12:14:27 GMT -5
Canaris, I told you to read the Illiad and Odisea just to see how Homer used to call Greeks! Albanoi was only one tribe of many Illirian tribes...which could survive in centuries, because of living surrounded by mountains and a very terrible geographic position after the Slav migration. So, you have Athens from the ancient times, we have Albanopolis mentioned! If 1000 years ago you pretent your historians to have written for Illirians and having used the term Albanians...you are a little wrong! Arxhileas, you haven't answer my question: where in history is written about the ARRIVAL of Albanians, same as is written for the ARRIVAL of Slavs in Balkan, for the arrival of Dorians etc.... !!!!!! |
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Post by tripwire on Nov 11, 2007 14:00:04 GMT -5
Hey Shqiptar Keep on dreamin' Of the way it could be In a fairy tale land We are waiting for you to annexed all Albanian land to Greece Albanians are not Greeks. We're not stupid enough to lose 1/3 of one of our islands to our enemy in a war we started. lol. Only Serbs and Greeks seem to be on that trend lately, since 1974. |
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Nov 11, 2007 15:10:50 GMT -5
What are you Greeks suggesting? A non-autochtonous origins of the Albanians? LOL.
Whether descendants of Illyrians or Thracians, we are as autochtonous as you. We were unfortunate to not having evolved a litterary tradition of our own, as your ancestors had, but most of the ancient nations who lived in Europe 2,000 yrs ago were illiterate and without a litterary tradition. There's nothing left in written form in the Basque language, yet nobody disputes their legacy as an indigenous Iberian group.
The Illyrian thesis is supported by a MAJORITY of serious scholars. As Aleksandar Stipcevic ( a renown Croatian historian who's given an immense contribution in Illyrian studies) noted, only nationalist historians, primarily Serbs, dispute this largely supported theory of Albanian ethnogenesis. And this after careful studies. But even if disproved, the Albanian origins must still be sought in the Balkans, or to be more specific, in the Daco-Thracian theory. Whether as relatives or as their direct descendants, linguistic evidence do show some connection between ancient Thracian and Albanian. And if such was to be the case, we're nevertheless autochtonous, as Thracian groups still touched territories today considered ethnic Albanian.
For all your information, Resuli-Burovic is not an Albanian. He is a Muslim Slav who identifies himself as Serbian, born north of Ulqin, modern day Montenegro. Him disputing our 'national myths' is much more correlated to his unreparable hatred for the Albanian ethnos rather than the result of empirical studies. He was, apparently, skinned 50 times (is that physically possible?) during Hoxha's times, so the desire of inflicting some degree of damage to the Albanians is perhaps understandable. It does not, however, automatically give him credibility.
One might say a scholar's ethnicity is of no crucial importance. So, whether actual Albanians such as Vehbiu (not Burovic) are disputing our Illyrian heritage is not decisive so as to conclude the debate; instead of focusing on him, focuse on the actual arguments he provides. And then compare them to other scholarly works and make your mind up. Though personally, I believe Vehbiu isn't disputing our linguistic and genetical Illyrian heritage, rather the romanticist concept of a hereditary national consciousness, consistent ever since the days of Queen Teuta & King Agron. And this is very much the case of you Greeks too. There was not much of a continuous Hellenic consciousness, as the fact that you called yourself 'Romans' (Romioi) testifies. Or, to quote the Patriarch Jenidis, of the 1400s;
Canaris here speaks of 'hibernation'. Catchy, one must admit. But the absence of a people by its direct name in chronicles is not necessarely indicative of their physical absence. With this, some of you might wishfully want to believe we're from Caucasus, namely Caucasian Albania (Aghbania). Here comes the tricky part, however. There's something called the Indoeuropean linguistic family tree, of which Albanian is a member of (forming its own branch with no near relative). The Caucasian languages, with the exception of the Armenian language (who linguistics deem to be closer to Greek & Persian than Albanian) and some Iranian dialects (Ossetian), are isolate languages with no living relatives outside the mountainous massif that composes Caucasus (disregarding recent diaspora).
So, the Albanian language is actually closer to Hindu, as is Greek, than it is to say Georgian, Chechen or Aghbanian. Looking for an Albanian ethnogenesis there is fruitless.
Even if we disregard the Illyrian theory, one must come to the same conclusion that the Albanians are as indigenous to the Balkans as the Greeks are. Why? If we compare Albanian to the Greek written in Homer's Iliad, we see common words that even modern Greek lacks. So, regardless if our ancestors borrowed these words from the Greeks of Homer's era, or vice-versa, it was an interaction which must have happened during those days ... because modern Greek lack these words, and so, we couldn't have 'exchanged' words in say, the Middle Age. Here are some examples;
In Albanian, the term 'of the horses' becomes 'Të kalit'. In Homeric Greek, it becomes 't'kelitos'. In the northern Albanian dialect, we say 't'kalit', which is even more close to the Homeric version of Greek. We also have individual words;
Albanian..................Homeric Greek.............Greek...........English
krye, kre..................krithen, kari..................kefalos.......head
lesh.........................lasios............................malå..........fure
marr........................mar-pto........................perno........'I take'
iki, ike.....................iko................................fevgo..........to escape
ligë........................lig-ios, lig-aes...........adhinatos.......evil, weak
rroj.......................rio, ritor....................zoe, akmazo....to live
Sy.........................o-se........................máti....................eye
vend.....................vedos.....................edafos, topos.....place
thërras...............threo, throos...........fonazo.................'I call'
nem, nêm...........neme-sis, neme-sao..katara.......curse, 'nemesis'
më duket............dokei mi..................nomizo..........'it seems to me'
ethe......................ethir, ethae.........piretos.............shivering
për ty....................par ti...................yia sena...........for you
flas.....................flio, fliarae............milao, omilae.......'I speak'
rrah...................rahso, raso...........derno, tipae.........beat
There are other examples as well, such as the Albanian word for
egg, ve/veza. In Northern Albania, it becomes vó, or voe, which resembles the Homeric word for egg, voon. Whether your Homeric ancestors borrowed these from northern barbarians, i.e. our ancestors, or vice-versa, doesn't matter as to what my point concerns; these borrowings couldn't of happened unless our people had contact with each other already in 700 BC.
With this information, it doesnt become all too important whether we're Illyrian or Thracian. But general evidence tend to point to the former theory.
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Post by leandros nikon on Nov 11, 2007 15:11:10 GMT -5
albanians are not greeks at all...greeks do fight their own wars,while americans fight the albanian wars...alboz have always a very brave mouth though... ;D
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 11, 2007 16:06:38 GMT -5
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