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Post by ILIRI I MADH on Jun 22, 2008 18:25:46 GMT -5
When King Otto of Greece came in Greece in 1830, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?" His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy". - Zaharias Papantoniou, "King Otto"
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 22, 2008 20:05:46 GMT -5
There were a lot of Albs in Greece by that time cause the Turks put them there.... how many were there before 1400?
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Post by albquietman on Jun 23, 2008 0:25:24 GMT -5
This is taken from Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArvanitesArvanites in Greece originated from Albanian settlers who moved south at different times between the 11th and 16th century from areas in what is today southern Albania.[3][4] The reasons for this migration are not entirely clear and may be manifold. In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers. Some later movements are also believed to have been motivated to evade Islamization after the Ottoman conquest. The main waves of migration into southern Greece started around 1300, reached a peak some time during the 14th century, and ended around 1600.[5] Arvanites first reached Thessaly, then Attica and finally the Peloponnese.[6]So the immigration started long before the ottomans invaded Ballkan...
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Post by albaniansoul on Jun 23, 2008 11:29:11 GMT -5
Immigration?
Albanians have been in greece longer then Greeks. That Albanians native to Greece moved around in Greece and that some Albanians moved south to Greece doesnt change anything.
Greeks are occupiers.
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 23, 2008 12:13:26 GMT -5
We are talking about Arvanites ..and it only reaffirms my belief that they were originally Greek...and started to scram from the north to avoid the Ottomans. That was about right the time the Ottomans began converting Albanians to Islam.... I hardly call 1300 ...long time before what I quoted at 1400.... and 200 years after the Albanians started to be heard/came to the Balkans.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 23, 2008 12:43:52 GMT -5
Once more albanian bulls**t. Get it into your dinaric brains...at this time when you lived on the Greek peninsula and if you were orthodox you were Greek... I very much doubt the Arvanites called themselves Albanians...of course they called themselves Ellines, they fought for Ellas, not Arvanitia or something like that...same thing with the Souliotes.
They probably used the terms "Arvanites, Arvanitika" in other fields...as kind of local terms...or among each other....but outwards...they were always "oi Ellines" and they didnt describe themselves as such out of tactical reasons...but because thats what they felt.
Why cant you finally accept that...they were not Albanians, they stand next to you, they are not your lost offspring.
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Post by albquietman on Jun 23, 2008 13:29:46 GMT -5
"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you can be reasonably sure it is a duck."
If they spoke and understood albanian, they were albanians. The term 'arvanites" is the greek version of the albanian "arber", that's the way we use to call themselves back then, and the country at that time was called Arberia...hope that helps.
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Post by telemaque on Jun 23, 2008 13:30:54 GMT -5
whatever they may feel, Arvanites = Albanians
Arvanites= Arnavut= Arnaut=Arberesh=Albanians
all the same or they should have been called Greek too, but that's not the case...
...maybe they feel Greek today, but they are ALBANIANS IN BLOOD...
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 23, 2008 13:33:44 GMT -5
I am Canadian..... ;D
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Post by captainalbania on Jun 23, 2008 13:40:46 GMT -5
We're out fighting for other people's countries when we should be out fighting for our own. That is our curse.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 23, 2008 14:01:56 GMT -5
no they were not. Albanian is a modern term...which you cannot transmit to the Arvanites. The Arvanites are Arvanites, the Albanians were Arvanites once and now they are Albanians. The term Albanian is a political term, too refering to the country albania since 1912, with which the arvanites did never have anything to do. Arvanites and Albanians differ from each other, their history isnt the same and also byb blood many arvanites are mixed with Greeks of the Peloponnese and Attica today, while the Albanians of Albania havent experienced such mixes. Albanians and Arvanites have just common roots regarding the arvanite part in them.
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Post by telemaque on Jun 23, 2008 14:15:59 GMT -5
arvanites=albanians = same ethnicity...same language, same roots...
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 23, 2008 14:32:58 GMT -5
They are no the same people.
like Epirus, Makedonia or Alexander the Great=Albanian?
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Post by telemaque on Jun 23, 2008 15:08:22 GMT -5
arvanites are mixed with Greeks of the Peloponnese and Attica today, while the Albanians of Albania havent experienced such mixes.
up to your logic, they are no more albanians because today they tend to mix with Greeks;
so they cannot be Greek because they tend to mix with them...you only mix yourselves with others, not with yours...
I tell you, they are Albo...
Northern Greeks are white, Southern Greeks are dark => not the same people !
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Post by Kastorianos on Jun 23, 2008 15:39:20 GMT -5
When did I say they are ethnically Greeks? The Arvanites that came to Greece first were simply Arvanites and not Greek and also not Albanian. So the Albanians can be Arvanites in origin but not vice versa and thats very important to be aware of.
Of course we are mixed, we have lighter and darker people and those will often have, regarding their appearance, differen forefathers but they usually dont belong to different linguistic groups; a light Greek has Greek as mother tongue as well as a darker Greek, so you cannot make such a differentiation anymore here. And this light-dark thing goes for every country, not only Greece, it goes for albania as well.
With Arvanites and Albanians its different. Here you can by means of history reconstruct the different developments of both groups, so clearly explain the difference betweenboth and relation to each other.
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Post by terroreign on Jun 23, 2008 18:08:27 GMT -5
The Albanians originate from Greece.......
......and the greeks originate from ALBANIA BWahahaha
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jun 23, 2008 19:02:13 GMT -5
...to be heard... What does that mean?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jun 23, 2008 19:07:04 GMT -5
Do not be more Chatholic than Pope! I understand Arvanites' feelings when it comes to Albanian issue...especially being in Greece, where being Albanian is like being Jewish in Nazi's time...but trust me, at least Arvanites will be having an identity if they didn't attempt to change it...as far as I know, 'till 1990 they used to speak Arvanitica, which is very comprehensible to Albanians...no matter what they want to be (Greek wanna be), it won't change their name: Arvanites. This very name betrays their "wanna be Greek" subconscience ...
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Jun 23, 2008 20:59:44 GMT -5
It means no one heard of them before 1300..... do we have to have this discussion again?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jun 23, 2008 21:52:59 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D
Of course you haven't heard...because the name was different...but the people were the same. Same as Romei (Greeks) in Bysant time.
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