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Post by partialfractions on Sept 29, 2008 20:11:23 GMT -5
First of all, it's really heartening to see someone looking into their roots and not for some sort of neo-nazi infantile teenage agenda in this board. Let me first say I'm not an expert on the subject. A while back me and my father took a trip to Albania and we were able to trace some of our roots. In fact we actually found the lineage of my paternal grandmother all the way back to the 16-17th century. But, this is almost certainly a quirk specific to my case. I'm pretty sure of my ancestors up until about the mid 1800s on both sides of my family. However, almost all of the information came from talking to old people in our family, or by the fact that some of my ancestors were memorable in the regions they lived.
My feeling on this is that it would be difficult for you to find anything by looking specifically to see if you can find Albanian records of your ancestors since you have no contacts. You might have better luck trying to find your ancestors as far back as you can by searching in Italy. I know that’s probably not what you want to hear but then again if it was that easy it wouldn’t be worth doing.
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Post by arberian on Oct 3, 2008 23:07:57 GMT -5
Hi arberian and good luck on your search. it is virtually impossible to find any records or data in towns of Albania of that time. Churches of the area also were small and not sophisticated to the point of collecting records and cataloging them. Even if they had any records in local level it is gone. maybe some registers cataloged and saved in more centrally positioned churches were saved and the best place to look for them is the national Archive in Tirana (i would doubt of any good result) but it is a possibility). Also 40 years of communism was a real flame on this type of records most of them were destroyed together with religious institutions physically burned or send for scrap. One line of hope i suggest to search for Arberesh forums. I did come across some of them couple of years ago. Most of them are in English and Italian so it would be easy for you to participate. They seam to have a good virtual network. I don't remember any in particular but i remember browsing couple of hours and did find them organized and interesting. They absolutely are the most informed people on your question. again good luck Hello Bodura, Thanks for the information. I'll try to find those regional archives to see if anything exists. And, I did take a look in whatever Arbëreshë forums were out there, but it seems that they've got about 5 posts in the last 5 years, so they were pretty useless. If you can remember where you went to, if there were ones people actually used, it would be appreciated. Thanks again!
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Post by arberian on Oct 3, 2008 23:08:44 GMT -5
For Albania, census data really started to come out during the Ottoman Empire. In particular use might be the Sancak-I-Arnavud by Hilal Inalcik. However I doubt the work has been translated into English and nor do I know how much use it will be. But it is essentially a record of early 14-15th century Ottoman census data on Albania. Where would I find that in? Albania or Istanbul?
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Post by arberian on Oct 3, 2008 23:09:50 GMT -5
I know that's sort of meant to be sort of a derogatory comment (saying they're "really not Albanian"), but if that was the case, I'd actually be fine with it. I want the truth here, simple as that. Unfortunately, it's utterly impossible since they left before the Turks even got to Himarë/Himara/(whatever is the 'proper' way to spell it ). The way i've read it is that they left at the time Skanderbeg died, or in earlier waves some time before that. Today, for what i've gathered, there are people with the names of Dhima, Dima, Dimas, Dhrimaj and Dimogiannis in the city, but I never came across Demaci. I'll put it down on the list, though. Thanks! no, you misunderstood, they're just branching off on parallell topics here, nothing to do with your quest, the arberesh were the most noble and proud albanians who couldn't bear living under ottoman occupation, that's why they fled, the fact that you guys after 500 years to this day preserve the old customs, songs and language is a testament to this proud people, so do not think that anyone has a hidden agenda towards you here, hopefully you'll get the information you need, however the records in albania are sketchy at best, its virtually impossible to find anything tangible, you might be able to find bits and pieces to help you, i think that there's a team of albanian historian trying to unravel the tangled web of information in the ottoman archives in turkey, that's the only hope to reveal many chronicles of those years i'm afraid Do you know who this historian is? I'd love to contact him and find out!
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Post by arberian on Oct 3, 2008 23:12:38 GMT -5
Himara is not a city its a town that has several villages. What do you want to know? I am aware of this (Dhërmi, Palase, Vuno, Pilur, Qeparo, Shën Vasili, Kudhës and Iliasi), but Himara is as accurate of a region I know my mother's family originally to have come from. I want to know (a) are there any church records (b) if so, how far do they go back (c) where I can find them and (d) if none of that exists, where can I find ottoman records? Thanks!
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Post by arberian on Oct 3, 2008 23:23:56 GMT -5
Some saying that people from Himara are gegs which been moved there 100 years ago from Kruja. So, Pirro Dhima could be Krutan from Albania!!! It is possible, but then on the original thread I linked to, there were Ottoman records of Dhimas in Himara in the 1500s, so that may not be the case. Also, i've done some informal research and it seems that Dhimas have three main "epicenters" being Himara, Gjirokastra and Fieri, with all of the people in Fieri potentially being originally from Himara. Either way (and i'd love for Himarotes to give their opinion on this), for what i've gathered, the region really isn't primarily Greek, even thought people like Pyrros think it is. They simply seem to be the same people who have been there for thousands and thousands of years. I mean, if that was true, the descendants who escaped to Italy would be speaking Greek, not a derivative of Tosk, today. The reason the belief has arisen is because of (A) the economics of the region correlated with the immigration policy of ethnic Greeks to Greece and (B) the fact that the Albanian-speaking schools were shut down by Hoxha in the region, leaving people with a primarily Greek-speaking background today. But, I am an outsider to this, so feel free to correct me.
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Post by arberian on Oct 3, 2008 23:26:05 GMT -5
First of all, it's really heartening to see someone looking into their roots and not for some sort of neo-nazi infantile teenage agenda in this board. Let me first say I'm not an expert on the subject. A while back me and my father took a trip to Albania and we were able to trace some of our roots. In fact we actually found the lineage of my paternal grandmother all the way back to the 16-17th century. But, this is almost certainly a quirk specific to my case. I'm pretty sure of my ancestors up until about the mid 1800s on both sides of my family. However, almost all of the information came from talking to old people in our family, or by the fact that some of my ancestors were memorable in the regions they lived. My feeling on this is that it would be difficult for you to find anything by looking specifically to see if you can find Albanian records of your ancestors since you have no contacts. You might have better luck trying to find your ancestors as far back as you can by searching in Italy. I know that’s probably not what you want to hear but then again if it was that easy it wouldn’t be worth doing. Thank you for the rational response. I already have taken the records back as far as I can go. If there's nothing in Albania, then there's nothing there. I recently have been looking at the possibility of DNA testing, but it's really complicated and I don't even know if it'll find out what I'm looking for. Thanks!
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Post by kartadolofonos on Oct 4, 2008 1:40:05 GMT -5
Etymology Himara ( Chimara) is claimed to be from Greek Ravine or even Chimera, the explanination of the name Dhërmi is pretended to be the Greek term - "dhrima-dhes" meaning Oak tree - which is based in the local natural vegetation. A second hypothesis is again from a Greek term dhromos - Road justified by the location of the village near the road. The Albanian explana-tion is from dhe-mih - meaning dig the soil - because of the scarce soil resource.
History. The foundation of the village is lost in the history. Himara, where Dher-mi is included, has been inhabited by the Illyrian tribe of Kaoni-ans. We know that Philip of Macedonia (father of Alexander the Great) attacked Himara in 214 BC and that in 167 BC, it was a Roman naval base. Julius Caesar was the first great leader that set his foot in the beach near Dhermi in his battle against Pompe-us and it is said that while he is sailing close to these dangerous Acrocerau-nian sho-res pronounce the famous sentences to his sailors" Don't fear as you are carrying the Caesar and his luck". For a certain period, Himara was under the Bulgarian rule ( 904 AD ). One relative of Gjin Bua Shpata (Lord of Arta about 1370 AD) came and was established in Dhermi. After the murder of Balsha II ( a famous Medieval Albanian landlord ) in 1385, his wife "a true amazon ruled upon Himara till 1392. Those were times of wars with Saracens, evidence of which are the Pirate's Cave and the place "Al-Evra.The famous Norman Guiskard and his son Boe-mund attempted to subdue the place, recognizing the strategic location upon the Otranto channel. Later (around 1400) Himara was under the domminion of Gjergj Aranit Komne-ni - relative to the Byzantine Emperors and the father of the Scanderbeg's wife- our national Hero. With the bride, Scander-beg took Himara as dowry. His son, Gjon Kastrioti, inherited Himara, where he landed in 1481 to organize an uprising against the Turks, after the death of his father, which proved unsuccesful. As result of Turkish occupation, many Himariotes left Albania and founded some villages in Southern Italy. Himara, unlike most of the country was never conquered completely by the Turkish. Together with Mirdita, both regions enjoyed a certain degree of autonomy. According to the status signed by Sulltan Bajazite II in 1492, Himara and her villa-ges, should pay to the Sublime Port the sum of 16,000 francs per year. However, the region was governed by the local demogeronds. Sulej-man the Magnificent (or the LawGiver) tried to submit Hima-ra, but in vain ( one Himario-te called Damian, succeed to enter in his tent in an attempt to kill -him). Himara ( at that time composed of more than 50 villages) was the center of several uprisings such those in 1481, 1488, 1494-1509, 1537, 1571, 1595, 1690 1713. Ali Pasha of Yanina was the only Turkish (or Albanian as he was Albanian by the origin ) ruler successful of occupying Himara ( 1797) and her villages. The story tells that he ordered to put the fire on the forest upon the village of Dhermi. According to the book of history of Albania, the Suliotes, that were the major contributors for the Greek Indepen-dence, were migrated Himario-tes. At that time Lord Byron wrote the famous verses : Shall the sons of Chimari who never forgive the fault of a friend, bid an enemy life ? Let those guns so unerring such vengeance forgo ? What's mark is so fair as the breast of a foe ? After the Albanian Independence, Himara was included in the new state, although in March 1914 the region was declared autonomous. In 1927 it was signed the Protocol of Himara between the region and the Albanian state that recognized the privileges of the region. 1930 marks the end of Greek language teaching in Himara. During the First World War, the Italians using the Austro-Hungarian war prisoners, build the road that connects Vlora and the region that give a big boost to the economic development of the Riviera. During the Italian-Greek war in 1940 war Dher-mi was the most advance post of Greeks and his inhabitants had to be removed in Vlora, Durrësi up to Shkodra. The village took part in the National Liberation war and many of the inhabitants took part in the Riviera Fighting unit and in the XII th Brigade. Social-Economic Development. Edward Lear that visited practically the major part of Albania in 1848, wrote for the region that " the civilization of this part of Albania seems indeed beyond what I have seen ?. In early- XX century the village of Dher-mi has two doctors, graduated in Vienna and in Athens. The first school was opened in 1877 ? and served as center of education for all the nearby inhabitants. Before the second World War, emigra-tion and agriculture (olive and agrumes growing) as well as trade, were the major activities. The grapefruit, most of it produced for the Jews Community, was the special trade commodity, together with the olive oil and agrumes. In that period, Dhermi has about 64 trucks, an indication of its wealth. Emigration, especially in Greece, US, Australia, France was another source of income for the family and at the same source of tragedies and disillusions. Petro Marko describes this wound : It's said that the big stones below are the men that had returned back and had died here. While the men that had left and died abroad are transformed in clouds. They come, shed tears and leave. And the big stones, near the shore, collect their tears as the rain is collected.
During socialism ( Dhermi joined the cooperati-ve system only in 1957) - agriculture was the sole-income producing activity. Substan-tial migration toward the great cities of the country oc-curred at this time- Vlora, Durrësi, Tirana, Berati being the most preferred. Dhermiotes were famous in those days as good drivers and truck repairmen. A major part of the new generation were well educated in the universities and high schools. After 1990, the majority of the population migrated in Greece, taking advantage of the Greek language. At the same time, migration happened for US, Canada and other West-European countries. Only the olive growing and olive oil extraction remained profitable activities. On the other hand, tourism began to be an proved to be an important profita-ble activity, although the great potential available was not fully exploited. The former Worker's Rest House privatized in different parts, served as catalyst for the construction of many other buildings for the increasing requests from all the country and abroad . The riots of 1997 and 1998 had their negative impact, but now tourism is constantly picking up. Language. Like in two other villages in the region (Himara and Palasa), the daily lan-guage for the Dhermiotes is a vulgar form of Greek. Albanian comes second. A hypothesis for this is that Himariotes are a Greek minority. Another hypothe-sis is that the Greek was adopted as working language during Turkish attempts to occupy the place and the Himariotes were forced to flee in the neighboring Greek islands as well as during the trade with them, especially Corfu. An interesting fact is support this second hypothesis is that the songs and mourning are held in the Albanian language. Agriculture. The wealth of agriculture depends mainly on the olive tree - it's estimated that there are more than 47,000 trees. The cultivar Kalinjot, most valuable for olive extraction than for table olives, dominates - above 92% of the trees. The maximum production achieved is 1,500 MT and the olive oil production is 300 MT/year. Citrus (oranges and lemons), figs, grapes, nespolla are the most important other trees, not to forget the natural vegetation such as prickly pear (called French -or India figs by the villagers) ( in Latin Opuntia ). Religion. The inhabitants of the region are converted Christians since early times. It's reported that Himara had his own Bishop in the IX century. All the autochthonous inhabitants are Greek Orthodox Christian. Religion practices were observed even in the atheistic times of 1967-1990. An interesting fact here is that Dhermi has numerous churches, about 46, one in about 15 families. There are three major monasteries - that of Saint Theodorus located in the hill outside the village, of the Virgin in the top of hill of Dhermi, and the monastery of ?. There are two big churches, both located in the village that of Saint Harallamb and that of... refurbished in 1967. However, the major part of the churches of the villages are small, build mostly by the emigrants returning from abroad in the country. The chur-ches of Saint Stephens and that of Saint Dhimi-tre according to the text of History of Albania contain some of the oldest afrescos of Albani-a (XII century). Reports of the XVII century give evidence of the efforts of the Catholic Church, through the Basilian order, to convert the Himariotes and especially the Dhermio-tes. Basilians opened a seminar in Albanian language. Before the Second World War, the village had had eight priests. The most celebrated religious events are the Assumpti-on Day (Au-gust 15) and Christmas and the Orthodox Eas-ter. While the Kanun of Leke Dukagjini was famous as the local goberning Code in Northern Albania, Himara abided to a special variant of Code called as the Kanuni i Papa Zhulit. (Priest Jule"s Code). Famous Dhermiotes. Captain Kumiu is the first Dhermiote to become important military leader in the court of theKing of Naples after the death of Scanderbeg. Dhimiter Leka was a famous general in the same court about 1820. (The Arberesh poet De Rada dedicated the famous poem Milosao - one of the beautiful romantic of Albanian renaissance - to him). Pano Bixhili is one the famous Dhermiotes who served for many years as envoy of Himario-tes to the Czar of Russia. Through Gjikë Bixhili, he helped the opening of the Albanian school in his village. Petro Marko is certainly one of the most succesful and productive writers of the post-- WWII period, born and buried in Dhërmi. He is recognized as such even by prestigious publications like the as the French Petit Larousse. Prominent sportists such as Strakosha, the goalkeeper of National Soccer team, and Andrea Marko, the famous player of Dinamo SC, Tirana of '80, are from Dhërmi. Other famous local players as the brothers Ruci (in the team of Flamurta-ri, Vlora) and Bifsha are native of Dhër-mi. Jorgo Rali, former Prime Minister of Greece and parliamentarian is of Dhermiote origin.
Tourist attractions. Dhërmi is a location where the attraction from the deep, clean, blue Ioanian sea is combined with the clear and healthy air of the mountains. Pro-tected in the North from the winds by the peninsula of Karaburu-ni, the village is quite attractive even during winter times, not to mention during summer. Cited as one of the pearls of the Albanian Riviera, it is certainly one of the most attractive locations in Albania, reported as such in all tourist- and guide-books of Albania. The village presents a particularly beauty with its characteristic Southern architecture amidst the traditional Mediterranean greenness. The well-educated, polyglots and hospita-ble inhabitants enhance the values of their village. The big churches of the village, as the Monastery of the Virgin, located in the top of the hill of Dhërmi, and that of the Saint Theodore in the top of the hill facing the sea as well as the churches of Saint Harallamb and .... are interest-ing religious building, worth of visiting. The mass is hold usually on Sundays and the location of the ceremony is not same. Al-evra is an unusual place to visit and admired for the unusual deep blue water with the rock going almost vertically into the sea. A small, very attractive harbor with the rocky beach above which stands the hill with the its monastery on top, Alevra is a must for the visitors. The Pirate's cave is an interesting natural cave made famous by the book written by Petro Marko and the movie of the same title. It can be reached both from the sea and the land. The sea view is unique and very particular. Located in perpendicular rocks, in very deep waters it is one of most valuable tourist attraction, that brings you back in the Medieval history of Albania. The harbor of Gjipe is located in South of the Pirate's cave and has a clean and fine sand. Once visited by tourists searching some privacy, these days it is frequented by all vacationers and represents one of the most virgin beaches of Albania. Can be reached by the sea as well by the land. In Dhermi are offered water games, diving tech-niques and scuba-diving lessons.
Himariotes
PANO GALUSI, MINO GJOKA , QIRJAKO KOKA (TENET) MILO ZAHO , SPIRO KENDOS ,ALEKO ZAHO RAKO MARKO ,SPIRO MEMI ,ANASTASIA GJOKA LAZO DUKA ,NICK ZOUPAS ,ELIA CAPULARI VASIL VODA ,ALEKS LITRAS ,MISS LITRAS MILO ZOTI PIROS DIMAS etc...
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Post by Teuta1975 on Oct 4, 2008 1:46:57 GMT -5
I know that the words dromo (road in greek) and podia (foot in Greek) come from the Albanian word dhe (soil) because both meanings connect to the soil ....an Italian had written about it but I don't remember his name...
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Post by adolfmussolini on Oct 4, 2008 10:03:51 GMT -5
Himara is not a city its a town that has several villages. What do you want to know? I am aware of this (Dhërmi, Palase, Vuno, Pilur, Qeparo, Shën Vasili, Kudhës and Iliasi), but Himara is as accurate of a region I know my mother's family originally to have come from. I want to know (a) are there any church records (b) if so, how far do they go back (c) where I can find them and (d) if none of that exists, where can I find ottoman records? Thanks! Well as you know Albania was Communist so xhaxhi Enveri did destroy a lot of church records but you would actually have to go there yourself and talk to the local people who are very friendly and welcoming, at least the older generations
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Post by adolfmussolini on Oct 4, 2008 10:12:39 GMT -5
Some saying that people from Himara are gegs which been moved there 100 years ago from Kruja. So, Pirro Dhima could be Krutan from Albania!!! It is possible, but then on the original thread I linked to, there were Ottoman records of Dhimas in Himara in the 1500s, so that may not be the case. Also, i've done some informal research and it seems that Dhimas have three main "epicenters" being Himara, Gjirokastra and Fieri, with all of the people in Fieri potentially being originally from Himara. Either way (and i'd love for Himarotes to give their opinion on this), for what i've gathered, the region really isn't primarily Greek, even thought people like Pyrros think it is. They simply seem to be the same people who have been there for thousands and thousands of years. I mean, if that was true, the descendants who escaped to Italy would be speaking Greek, not a derivative of Tosk, today. The reason the belief has arisen is because of (A) the economics of the region correlated with the immigration policy of ethnic Greeks to Greece and (B) the fact that the Albanian-speaking schools were shut down by Hoxha in the region, leaving people with a primarily Greek-speaking background today. But, I am an outsider to this, so feel free to correct me. I have no real opinion on Pirro Dhima, but if u look at his face it doesn't really say "I'm Albanian" LOL Plus his name is more Greek than lets say Luan Shabani(pure ALBO name) Enver Hoxha did not shut down Albanian speaking schools lol wow who told you this?? Some of the first Albanian schools were actually opened in Himara, Hoxha only discriminated those who were against the party, and the proleteriat which was the party. In Communism only the proleteriat is important, it's an ideology for everyone, not just special people Now countries have borders and borders have integrity so how can regions be Greek? Himara, Dhermi etc are very ISOLATED parts of Laberia I mean the roads to get there from Tirana are so dangerous(beautiful too but scary) so the people who learned Greek just for trade must've been very educated. Also, I doubt that ALL Himariots escaped to Italy considering Himara was autonomous during the Ottoman Empire(even after Skenderbeg's death) One last thing, if you're planning to visit Himara you should probably not have any pre-judgmental attitude, because of recent political disputes(caused by Sali Berisha's evil twin, Vasil Bollano) everyone is suddenly an expert on Himara, even people who until recently didn't know it existed, or that it's not that far from Vlora, Albania's patriotic front ;D
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Post by speedy on Oct 4, 2008 10:37:32 GMT -5
Himara, Dhermi etc are very ISOLATED parts of Laberia I mean the roads to get there from Tirana are so dangerous(beautiful too but scary) so the people who learned Greek just for trade must've been very educated. Also, I doubt that ALL Himariots escaped to Italy considering Himara was autonomous during the Ottoman Empire(even after Skenderbeg's death)
You have no idea what your talking about
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Post by arberian on Oct 4, 2008 11:31:58 GMT -5
Himara, Dhermi etc are very ISOLATED parts of Laberia I mean the roads to get there from Tirana are so dangerous(beautiful too but scary) so the people who learned Greek just for trade must've been very educated. Also, I doubt that ALL Himariots escaped to Italy considering Himara was autonomous during the Ottoman Empire(even after Skenderbeg's death)You have no idea what your talking about No, you can't read what I posted. A. I never said ALL escaped. Go through every single thing I typed here. In fact, what i'm trying to figure out (connecting to the city from Italy) would not be possible if everyone left. B. In fact, I referred, several times about Ottoman census records, which could only be possible IF people stayed behind. In fact, I actually believe only a small fraction of people left at the time of Skanderbeg. I couldn't even be able to accomplish my goal had no one (or even the majority, which I believe to be the case) stayed behind. I do appreciate you pointing out the isolation, since it just reinforces the fact that the people have always been there for thousands of years, like I thought.
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Post by speedy on Oct 4, 2008 11:42:28 GMT -5
Himara, Dhermi etc are very ISOLATED parts of Laberia I mean the roads to get there from Tirana are so dangerous(beautiful too but scary) so the people who learned Greek just for trade must've been very educated. Also, I doubt that ALL Himariots escaped to Italy considering Himara was autonomous during the Ottoman Empire(even after Skenderbeg's death)You have no idea what your talking about No, you can't read what I posted. A. I never said ALL escaped. Go through every single thing I typed here. In fact, what i'm trying to figure out (connecting to the city from Italy) would not be possible if everyone left. B. In fact, I referred, several times about Ottoman census records, which could only be possible IF people stayed behind. In fact, I actually believe only a small fraction of people left at the time of Skanderbeg. I couldn't even be able to accomplish my goal had no one (or even the majority, which I believe to be the case) stayed behind. I do appreciate you pointing out the isolation, since it just reinforces the fact that the people have always been there for thousands of years, like I thought. I wasnt speaking to you, i wasnt arguing about that. I'll ask you now. Who were the people who learned to speak Greek for trading? A) Albanians or B) Greek epitotes.
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Post by adolfmussolini on Oct 4, 2008 11:49:25 GMT -5
Himara, Dhermi etc are very ISOLATED parts of Laberia I mean the roads to get there from Tirana are so dangerous(beautiful too but scary) so the people who learned Greek just for trade must've been very educated. Also, I doubt that ALL Himariots escaped to Italy considering Himara was autonomous during the Ottoman Empire(even after Skenderbeg's death)You have no idea what your talking about 1)Himara is the most isolated part of LABERIA (which includes Vlora, Saranda, Tepelena, and to an extent Gjirokastra) because it has very steep and dangerous mountains. they are also very breathtaking but unless u have been there via Tirana you can't say I have no idea what I'm talking about. 2) Himara, along with some parts of Montenegro, were THE ONLY PLACES IN THE BALKANS THAT MAINTAINED THEIR INTEGRITY AND FREEDOM FROM THE OTTOMANS EVEN AFTER SKENDERBEG DIED!!!
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Post by adolfmussolini on Oct 4, 2008 11:50:53 GMT -5
Himara, Dhermi etc are very ISOLATED parts of Laberia I mean the roads to get there from Tirana are so dangerous(beautiful too but scary) so the people who learned Greek just for trade must've been very educated. Also, I doubt that ALL Himariots escaped to Italy considering Himara was autonomous during the Ottoman Empire(even after Skenderbeg's death)You have no idea what your talking about No, you can't read what I posted. A. I never said ALL escaped. Go through every single thing I typed here. In fact, what i'm trying to figure out (connecting to the city from Italy) would not be possible if everyone left. B. In fact, I referred, several times about Ottoman census records, which could only be possible IF people stayed behind. In fact, I actually believe only a small fraction of people left at the time of Skanderbeg. I couldn't even be able to accomplish my goal had no one (or even the majority, which I believe to be the case) stayed behind. I do appreciate you pointing out the isolation, since it just reinforces the fact that the people have always been there for thousands of years, like I thought. I did read what you wrote, and the reason I said that is because some people like to say that all Himariots escaped to Italy after Skenderbeg died and the remainders are actually Gegs who migrated south after Skenderbeu's death.
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Post by speedy on Oct 4, 2008 11:57:51 GMT -5
2) Himara, along with some parts of Montenegro, were THE ONLY PLACES IN THE BALKANS THAT MAINTAINED THEIR INTEGRITY AND FREEDOM FROM THE OTTOMANS EVEN AFTER SKENDERBEG DIED!!!
Hard to believe when every one suffered under the ottomans and then later communism, still think you don’t know what your talking about
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