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Post by proleteriat on Nov 14, 2008 15:14:47 GMT -5
If I'm so much of a joke why do I get messages to "keep up the good work" arguing against you LOLmust be leandros and company from Greek forum ;D ;D your a Grekoman to them ...hang out in Greek forum and they make you a mod ....and then come back here I will give you what potez to make . ;D No one invited you in this old man, but actually the messages i got were from Albanians, I'm not going to post them here to embarrass them. "You're a Grekoman" haha you are funny. seriously stop with those smiley faces, it makes you look like a kurva, stop being creepy ;D
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Nov 14, 2008 15:16:29 GMT -5
C'mon ....tell us what you past handle on this forum was ...
or I will ;D you to death ...
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 14, 2008 15:18:35 GMT -5
C'mon ....tell us what you past handle on this forum was ... or I will ;D you to death ... I already told you i was googling Thracians then found this, it is a source of entertainment for me, but also a chance for me to spread my wisdom
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Nov 14, 2008 15:25:35 GMT -5
ok ..we will run with that thracian story ....
till I get some of my Forum agents to work on this ...
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 14, 2008 15:31:31 GMT -5
About a quarter of the Muslim Slavs in Sandzak are of Albanian origin, do you know that? Or how many of the Muslim Slavs in Montenegro are of Albanian in origin?
Its not anything to do with anything but a weakness on the part of Albanians to properly create a strong sense of identity before our neighbors, along with prohibitions by various entities such as both Ottoman heirarchy and Orthodox church. The only people who have been able to keep this off is Catholics, and thats because they were the only entity allowed schools in their native language...
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 14, 2008 15:33:55 GMT -5
Btw, writing essays doesnt help anybody... it means nobody will read your posts. I have crap to read here on my desk, I come here for simply crap, not for papers. A long while back we had a member here called Kapedani, whose every single post was an essay... and guess what? Nobody read his posts.
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 14, 2008 15:38:06 GMT -5
Btw, writing essays doesnt help anybody... it means nobody will read your posts. I have crap to read here on my desk, I come here for simply crap, not for papers. A long while back we had a member here called Kapedani, whose every single post was an essay... and guess what? Nobody read his posts. Then don't reply to them dumbass, lol Your reasoning is s**t, the fact is in all of our slavic neighboring countries there are Albanian majority areas and little mixing. In Greece this is not the case even though there's at least 1 million Albanians there, not to mention a couple thousand te Evros Grek. Why?
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 14, 2008 16:07:59 GMT -5
The Slavs are Christians the Albanians are largely Muslims. I already stated that Albanians in mostly Muslim zones were assimilated into Bosnians. While in Macedonia there were until the 20th century a large group of Orthodox Christian Albanians who were assimilated by the Slavic church. In Montenegro, ever heard of Marko Miljanov? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_MiljanovThe Albanians in Greece now are mostly immigrants as opposed The Evros "Shkipetars"(as they pronounced it) were byproducts of population exchange and Christians. Generally where Albanians were Orthodox Christians living next to an established church instititution they were assimilated by it. Thats why many say conversion to Islam saved the Albanian identity. Though I dont believe it was that simple.
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 14, 2008 19:02:30 GMT -5
The Slavs are Christians the Albanians are largely Muslims. I already stated that Albanians in mostly Muslim zones were assimilated into Bosnians. While in Macedonia there were until the 20th century a large group of Orthodox Christian Albanians who were assimilated by the Slavic church. In Montenegro, ever heard of Marko Miljanov? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_MiljanovThe Albanians in Greece now are mostly immigrants as opposed The Evros "Shkipetars"(as they pronounced it) were byproducts of population exchange and Christians. Generally where Albanians were Orthodox Christians living next to an established church instititution they were assimilated by it. Thats why many say conversion to Islam saved the Albanian identity. Though I dont believe it was that simple. Islam did save the Albanian idendity, as much as it pains me to admit it. There's a video with people living in Evros, NOT IMMIGRANTS, ethnic people, and they say they are SHQIPTAR!! so... and Albanians have never been assimilated in slavic countries like they, and those immigrants who live there now, will be in Greece. Not even close. I know Albanians who see nothing wrong with an Albanian becoming Greek. Maybe beacuse we are educated in America we think different
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 14, 2008 20:20:45 GMT -5
The Evros Albs were originally Albanians Christians who settled from Kolonja in the area of Edirne. Fan Noli came from this group. They were moved to Evros during the population exchange which Greece and Turkey underwent and as they were classified as Rum Christians, they were not distinguished from others, regardless of ethnicity. On top of that these people were far away from the nationalist movements of Albania. It might have been easier for Noli to feel like a nationalist since he was among the more educated, but the lower class defined strongly by their church.
And you cant compare the assimilation of yester-years, when states werent properly created and demarked and todays. Today those Albs immigrating are entering a society they feel entirely alien to and treated in a far more hostile manner. Many are poor and destitute and dont really feel like suffering through any trials. Again, its the fault of Communism and its damage to Albania. The Kosovars suffered an external oppression. They were oppressed because of their ethnicity, this made it stronger then the ones in Albania. Same with Albs from Macedonia. They were attacked because they were Albs.
Its a very common thing. In Albania this didnt happen.
Your just arguing for the sake of argument at this point.
No it didnt. Islam only "saved" the Albanian ethnicity once we actually started conversion. What would have saved Albanian Christians would be a church of their own which should have been pushed for in the 16-17th century. By the 19th it was too late, these people had been living under a particular church which was now united in a particular cause, furthering Greece and Albanian Christians fell as pawns to it. The sad part is that the Noli movement should have started far earlier then the 20th century.
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Post by lozonjare on Nov 14, 2008 23:09:27 GMT -5
Btw, writing essays doesnt help anybody... it means nobody will read your posts. I have crap to read here on my desk, I come here for simply crap, not for papers. A long while back we had a member here called Kapedani, whose every single post was an essay... and guess what? Nobody read his posts. Then don't reply to them dumbass, lol Your reasoning is s**t, the fact is in all of our slavic neighboring countries there are Albanian majority areas and little mixing. In Greece this is not the case even though there's at least 1 million Albanians there, not to mention a couple thousand te Evros Grek. Why? No actually his reasoning is absolutely correct. If Kosovar Albanians were Orthodox or even Catholic, you honestly believe they would have an Albanian conscious today?think again....Yes, HUGE portions of Albanians have been assimilated by slavs. There was at some point 100,000 Albanians in Belgrade, where are they now? This happens very frequently in Montenegro especially, and it absolutely has everything to do with religion. I'll give you some examples. There are two ways to regionally divide Albs in Mali Zi, the ones in Malesi and the ones in Ulqin/Kraja. Malesia is predominately Catholic with a Muslim minority, well Catholics there are the majority so they have been able to keep their nationality more so than Muslim Malesors who simply call themselves Bosnian or just "Muslim". Then there is Ulqin/Kraja where the majority of this region are Muslims, with a Catholic minority, well the majority of Catholics from this region have been assimilated and have a Slavic ethnic conscious. You have to take into consideration that in Montenegro, Albanians are divided religiously and are generally very religious unlike Albanians from Albania. The minority religious community in both these Albanian regions seeks comfort outside, and therefore become assimilated.
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 14, 2008 23:14:26 GMT -5
The Evros Albs were originally Albanians Christians who settled from Kolonja in the area of Edirne. Fan Noli came from this group. They were moved to Evros during the population exchange which Greece and Turkey underwent and as they were classified as Rum Christians, they were not distinguished from others, regardless of ethnicity. On top of that these people were far away from the nationalist movements of Albania. It might have been easier for Noli to feel like a nationalist since he was among the more educated, but the lower class defined strongly by their church. And you cant compare the assimilation of yester-years, when states werent properly created and demarked and todays. Today those Albs immigrating are entering a society they feel entirely alien to and treated in a far more hostile manner. Many are poor and destitute and dont really feel like suffering through any trials. Again, its the fault of Communism and its damage to Albania. The Kosovars suffered an external oppression. They were oppressed because of their ethnicity, this made it stronger then the ones in Albania. Same with Albs from Macedonia. They were attacked because they were Albs. Its a very common thing. In Albania this didnt happen. Your just arguing for the sake of argument at this point. No it didnt. Islam only "saved" the Albanian ethnicity once we actually started conversion. What would have saved Albanian Christians would be a church of their own which should have been pushed for in the 16-17th century. By the 19th it was too late, these people had been living under a particular church which was now united in a particular cause, furthering Greece and Albanian Christians fell as pawns to it. The sad part is that the Noli movement should have started far earlier then the 20th century. blah blah blah. you're talking about the minority in ex-Yu states. I'm talking about majority here, get a clue
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 14, 2008 23:15:55 GMT -5
Then don't reply to them dumbass, lol Your reasoning is s**t, the fact is in all of our slavic neighboring countries there are Albanian majority areas and little mixing. In Greece this is not the case even though there's at least 1 million Albanians there, not to mention a couple thousand te Evros Grek. Why? No actually his reasoning is absolutely correct. If Kosovar Albanians were Orthodox or even Catholic, you honestly believe they would have an Albanian conscious today?think again....Yes, HUGE portions of Albanians have been assimilated by slavs. There was at some point 100,000 Albanians in Belgrade, where are they now? This happens very frequently in Montenegro especially, and it absolutely has everything to do with religion. I'll give you some examples. There are two ways to regionally divide Albs in Mali Zi, the ones in Malesi and the ones in Ulqin/Kraja. Malesia is predominately Catholic with a Muslim minority, well Catholics there are the majority so they have been able to keep their nationality more so than Muslim Malesors who simply call themselves Bosnian or just "Muslim". Then there is Ulqin/Kraja where the majority of this region are Muslims, with a Catholic minority, well the majority of Catholics from this region have been assimilated and have a Slavic ethnic conscious. You have to take into consideration that in Montenegro, Albanians are divided religiously and are generally very religious unlike Albanians from Albania. The minority religious community in both these Albanian regions seeks comfort outside, and therefore become assimilated. oh great a Shkodrane defending a fellow Shkodran. so surprising. read my reply to him, you're off topic or arguing for the sake of arguing, i already said Islam played a role in saving the Albanian identity.
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Post by lozonjare on Nov 14, 2008 23:42:21 GMT -5
Proleteriat,
I think you're really exaggerating..you act as if Greece has some kind of magical power to assimilate Albanians, they really don't. Be realistic, we're in the 21st century, we're all heading towards globalization! There are several reasons why they have been able to effectively assimilate the non-Greek populations in the country.
1)same religion!!! 2)the appeal of being Greek(links to ancient greece, well known country around the world, etc) 3)Greece cleverly calls them Arvanite instead of Albanian, Vlach instead of Romanian, Slavophone Greek instead of Macedonian/FYROMians, and doesn't promote the usage of any of these languages
BTW, those Albanians in Evros don't have an Albanian ethnic conscious. Just because they call themselves Shqiptar, doesn't mean they consider themselves Albanians. The Orthodox Cams call themselves Shqiptar too, but they dont consider themselves Albanian. I know because my relatives who live in Germany actually know many Orthodox Cams. Orthodox Cams who remained in Greece's borders call themselves Shqiptar and speak Shqip in their Albanian dialect, but they call themselves Arvanites, not Alvanos, in Greek. Overall, the Muslim religion helped maintain the Albanian identity outside of Albania's border
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Post by lozonjare on Nov 14, 2008 23:46:04 GMT -5
No actually his reasoning is absolutely correct. If Kosovar Albanians were Orthodox or even Catholic, you honestly believe they would have an Albanian conscious today?think again....Yes, HUGE portions of Albanians have been assimilated by slavs. There was at some point 100,000 Albanians in Belgrade, where are they now? This happens very frequently in Montenegro especially, and it absolutely has everything to do with religion. I'll give you some examples. There are two ways to regionally divide Albs in Mali Zi, the ones in Malesi and the ones in Ulqin/Kraja. Malesia is predominately Catholic with a Muslim minority, well Catholics there are the majority so they have been able to keep their nationality more so than Muslim Malesors who simply call themselves Bosnian or just "Muslim". Then there is Ulqin/Kraja where the majority of this region are Muslims, with a Catholic minority, well the majority of Catholics from this region have been assimilated and have a Slavic ethnic conscious. You have to take into consideration that in Montenegro, Albanians are divided religiously and are generally very religious unlike Albanians from Albania. The minority religious community in both these Albanian regions seeks comfort outside, and therefore become assimilated. oh great a Shkodrane defending a fellow Shkodran. so surprising. read my reply to him, you're off topic or arguing for the sake of arguing, i already said Islam played a role in saving the Albanian identity. No you said Albanians haven't assimilated in ex-Yugoslavia countries , only in Greece, when thats not the case.
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 14, 2008 23:47:13 GMT -5
Proleteriat, I think you're really exaggerating..you act as if Greece has some kind of magical power to assimilate Albanians, they really don't. Be realistic, we're in the 21st century, we're all heading towards globalization! There are several reasons why they have been able to effectively assimilate the non-Greek populations in the country. 1)same religion!!! 2)the appeal of being Greek(links to ancient greece, well known country around the world, etc) 3)Greece cleverly calls them Arvanite instead of Albanian, Vlach instead of Romanian, Slavophone Greek instead of Macedonian/FYROMians, and doesn't promote the usage of any of these languages BTW, those Albanians in Evros don't have an Albanian ethnic conscious. Just because they call themselves Shqiptar, doesn't mean they consider themselves Albanians. The Orthodox Cams call themselves Shqiptar too, but they dont consider themselves Albanian. I know because my relatives who live in Germany actually know many Orthodox Cams. Orthodox Cams who remained in Greece's borders call themselves Shqiptar and speak Shqip in their Albanian dialect, but they call themselves Arvanites, not Alvanos, in Greek. Overall, the Muslim religion helped maintain the Albanian identity outside of Albania's border Learn how to spell *exaggerating and if you're going to argue something, learn not to argue by counterarguing your own argument. Lol read that carefully then attempt to reply. ps: I doubt your relatives in Germany know "many" Orthodox Cams as many Cams in general don't walk around saying they are Cam, they usually just identify with whatever region in Albania they are from.
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 14, 2008 23:49:15 GMT -5
oh great a Shkodrane defending a fellow Shkodran. so surprising. read my reply to him, you're off topic or arguing for the sake of arguing, i already said Islam played a role in saving the Albanian identity. No you said Albanians haven't assimilated in ex-Yugoslavia countries , only in Greece, when thats not the case. Well, what I also said Lozoqare, is that even if Albanians were assimilated in ex-Yugoslavia it was the minority, while in Greece it was and is the majority, also what I said in ex-Yugoslavia Albanian minorities have survived, in Greece they were all assimilated, as you yourself said it in your other post retardd duh duh duh!! either that or they were kicked out, Kosova is independent and in southern Albania people are asking for autonomy. Arberesh in Italy saved their identity for 500 years...yea, I would say Greece has some type of "magical" "power" as you said when it comes to assimilating Albanians...ask the Arvanites, ask southern Albanians, or tell your family to ask those Orthodox Chams lmao I even know Muslim Cams who invite Greeks over for dinner. It makes me sick to my stomach that people in Albania are so easily manipulated and that Pirro Bollano had to die a death that I would not wish on my own worst enemy. And why does this have to happen? For the w**re that is Greece? WHy Albanians should kill and hate each other because of Greece? It's very easy to blame Greece and Greeks for all this but what about Albanians? They are so easily manipulated, especially our politicians, especially simple minded people like the ones in this forum, I would rather see Bledi Xhaferri go on a mass killing spree in Athens or have Turkey carpet bomb Greece, then have this happen in southern Albania...anyway I'm done with my essays and don't reply cause I won't be back for a while!!! G-bye!!
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Post by lozonjare on Nov 14, 2008 23:55:00 GMT -5
Proleteriat, I think you're really exaggerating..you act as if Greece has some kind of magical power to assimilate Albanians, they really don't. Be realistic, we're in the 21st century, we're all heading towards globalization! There are several reasons why they have been able to effectively assimilate the non-Greek populations in the country. 1)same religion!!! 2)the appeal of being Greek(links to ancient greece, well known country around the world, etc) 3)Greece cleverly calls them Arvanite instead of Albanian, Vlach instead of Romanian, Slavophone Greek instead of Macedonian/FYROMians, and doesn't promote the usage of any of these languages BTW, those Albanians in Evros don't have an Albanian ethnic conscious. Just because they call themselves Shqiptar, doesn't mean they consider themselves Albanians. The Orthodox Cams call themselves Shqiptar too, but they dont consider themselves Albanian. I know because my relatives who live in Germany actually know many Orthodox Cams. Orthodox Cams who remained in Greece's borders call themselves Shqiptar and speak Shqip in their Albanian dialect, but they call themselves Arvanites, not Alvanos, in Greek. Overall, the Muslim religion helped maintain the Albanian identity outside of Albania's border ps: I doubt your relatives in Germany know "many" Orthodox Cams as many Cams in general don't walk around saying they are Cam, they usually just identify with whatever region in Albania they are from. Yes they do know them. Im referring to them as Orthodox Cams, but they call themselves Arvanite Greeks. But my relatives have spoken to them in Albanian, they say they are from Thesprotia, so I think its pretty obvious what their origins are.
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Post by lozonjare on Nov 15, 2008 11:02:22 GMT -5
Your comparing apples with oranges. The majority of Albanians in ex-Yugoslavia were Muslim and the majority of Albanians in Greece where Orthodox, if Albanians in Ex-Yugo where Predominately Orthodox and had an Albanian identity today, then you would have a point, but they're not so you can't compare the two.
And as for the Southern Albs I know, they're anti-Greek. I really doubt you've been to Albania anytime recently, go visit it and then come back and tell us if your Greek conspiracy holds any weight.
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Nov 15, 2008 11:17:16 GMT -5
don't reply cause I won't be back for a while!!! G-bye!!
HEY !! your not going anywhere ...you need a hallway pass from me
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