donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 7, 2009 9:43:17 GMT -5
The old Albanian term for Albanian was Arbëror/Arbëresh. This is what the Suliots called themselves and their language, hence the title to Bocari's dictionary. Nobody in that time called themselves "Arvanites"; that is a medieval GREEK term for Albanian.
But there is no uninterrupted continuation between the ancient usage of "Ellines" till today, hence why its usage today is an artificial and political reintroduction. The Greeks of the Middle Age did not see themselves as Greeks, but as "Romans". Some went to the extent that they abhorred the term Greek and everything associated with it, like the Patriarch Yenidis.
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Post by podgoricanin on Feb 7, 2009 9:44:50 GMT -5
I beg to differ with you on that Donnie, It seemed you based your entire arguement off of their hair style that morning. And yes this was translated yesterday, at my cousins home...... and he seems to agree that they were actually GREEK!
don't get so bent out of shape buddy!
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 7, 2009 9:50:36 GMT -5
Read again, and more closely, seljak, and you might understand better.
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Post by podgoricanin on Feb 7, 2009 10:07:15 GMT -5
I believe you need to read a bit better, as I said this in past tense, and with a grain of salt!
RELAX Stress is bad for you......hehe
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 7, 2009 10:21:00 GMT -5
Read what, my own reply? LOL. Your thickness reaches new levels each time. This is what I wrote;
And their resemblance with northern Albanians, especially the Malsors, is quite evident to anyone with information. Just look at the hair-styles for instance, and compare them to the famous "perche" of the north.
The hair-style was to compare them to Malsors, not prove their Albanian identity. Now go make me some cevapi woman and make some use out of yourself ...
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 7, 2009 12:23:56 GMT -5
Your mother speaks the Albanian dialect of the Chams? Firstly, exactly how did you conclude the term Albanian as "new"? And secondly, your analogy is incorrect. The Suliots and early Arvanites did identify as Albanians; why else call themselves Arbëror and their language as Arbërishte, old terms for Albanians and Albanian; likewise Pjetër Bogdani, an Albanian Archbishop of Skopje originally from Has, calls us/his people Arbënesh, much like the Albanians of Italy who call themselves Arbëresh. If anything, it is the term Ellhnes which is new, artificially reintroduced as the successor of the earlier term Romioi which was a rather Orthodox-religious identification. On the other hand, the Albanians, including the Arvanites and Suliots, have consistenly made us of the self-identifying terms Arbëror and Arbëresh. When writing the dictionary, Marko Bocari gave it the title " Fjalorth Romaiko-Arbërishte e thjesht" -- see the term 'Arbërishte' ? Except that this would be to settle with a lie. Which I will not. The Arvanites were a group who settled in Central & Southern Greece as well as the islands of the Ioanian and Aegean. The Suliots were part of the Cham branch, and were described as Albanians by contemporary visitors who saw and visited them in the early 19th century. Fjalorth Romaiko-Arbërishte e thjesht?? Just another sign of your smattering semiliterate knowledge. Where did you find this? He named his lexico " Lexikon tis Romaikis kai Arvanitikis aplis", not shqiptar/sqiptarikis neither albanian/alvanikis. The difference is mainly historical. An Arvanitis fought for Greece even if he had to fight people that spoke the same language... and of course Souliotes' and others Arvanites' descendants are Greeks today and much antialbanian. There'a a copy of the original first page of Botsaris' lexico:
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 7, 2009 12:28:11 GMT -5
Arvanit language: Pure Albanian language !! Nice Greek Moraitika and Roumeliotika style songs in arvanitika.
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Post by meltdown711 on Feb 7, 2009 12:38:20 GMT -5
Mountain bitch Podgo... how red was your face when your leaders recognized our precious Kosova?
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Feb 7, 2009 13:30:41 GMT -5
It's funny we post these articles about the Soulis as if they were some demi gods.... or something... if fact they were a bunch of chit disturbers that were quelled early on in game.... tough guys that didn't' finish last. Fug em.. and the horse they rode on..same goes for the chams and other 'discontinued' tribes.
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Post by meltdown711 on Feb 7, 2009 13:34:10 GMT -5
And what are we to make of those Suliots who converted to Islam and left the area for Albania? Does that mean that exclusivity to a religion defines how you see an ethnic group? The current head of the Metropolinate of Korca, John Pelushi, is a convert to Orthodoxy from Bektashi Islam, and before his family's conversion they were from Suli.
And your expression about cousin is a bit off Patrinos, they are from our ethnic group directly. Unlike the Arvanites. They are, in that sense, a brother. And mind you at that Albanian Muslims were also killing each other: Ali Pasha was also trying to destroy neighboring Pashaluks. The two major Albanian Pasha's at this time, him and Bushati in the north, were at war with each other constantly.
So... because of this... are we to say they are not of the same ethnicity? Or what about the Orthodox Christian Albanians of Ukraine, who left to fight for Russia yet today consider themselves to be linked to Albania nonetheless....
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 7, 2009 14:12:13 GMT -5
An Arvanitis fought for Greece BS.... they were fighting for themselves from whatever enemy or repression upon em ... ....or whatever fever domino affect it caused for others to come out of hiding from under their mothers/wifes dresses wasn't for GREECE anything.. it just became and fell that way for the history books ... there even wasn't a Greece then.... the only Arvanity fighting for Greece I can see now is if they are in Greek armed forces today ...Like Patrinos for example
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Feb 7, 2009 14:17:09 GMT -5
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 7, 2009 14:17:50 GMT -5
Whats the purpose of what you(Albos) try to say...? that their descedants are Albos...Shqiptars???
Of course and they spoke a form of albanian language and have a lot of common with the Albanians of that era but, have you ever asked yourself why they are now Greeks, why they acted/act patriotically as prime-minister, ministers, military and simple citizens? They've done a historical "choise", they were people who wanted freedom, and they understood that freedom would come only by Greeks, as it did...and not from some albanian speaking Ottoman tribes...
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 7, 2009 14:17:59 GMT -5
Rexy why did you PMed me? so you can see the documentary on your blood cousin suliotes
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Post by kasso on Feb 7, 2009 14:21:04 GMT -5
Where is your problem with calling them what they call themselves? If they were "Albanians" they would call themselves as such. But they dont. Probably with good reason. They call themselves Arvanites, thus they are Arvanites and not Albanians. If you want to interprete the term Arvanites as "Albanians" you can do it, but it remains an interpretation (a political at that) and its not anymore of scientific nature. Its an unneccessary politicization if you ask me. This statement is very vague and extremely inaccurate, because of an accepted fact, which is that they use a medieval name called "Arbërorë" meaning Albanian, and as an parallel example, the Arbërëshë people would be your logic of different origin since they don't use the modern term "Shqiptarë".
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 7, 2009 14:22:52 GMT -5
An Arvanitis fought for Greece BS.... they were fighting for themselves from whatever enemy or repression upon em ... ....or whatever fever domino affect it caused for others to come out of hiding from under their mothers/wifes dresses wasn't for GREECE anything..it just became and fell that way for the history books ... there even wasn't a Greece then.... Suliotes got their freedom because we,the rest of Greeks fought. If you search a little bit you will easilly see that Suliotes were usually the triggermen of Mavrokordatos and the rest Phanariotes and their buddies the Ydriots. Why didn't they unite with the Albanians to free at last...Arberi?? Don't you claim that you didn't have many real Turks in your land and only Tourkalvanous??? What have you achieved with the warlike character...except the big placke?
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 7, 2009 14:25:33 GMT -5
have you ever asked yourself why they are now Greeks, why they acted/act patriotically as prime-minister, ministers, military and simple citizens?
same reason I am In USA , Kastorianos is Germany or that island boy Canaris in Canada ...
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 7, 2009 14:32:14 GMT -5
have you ever asked yourself why they are now Greeks, why they acted/act patriotically as prime-minister, ministers, military and simple citizens?same reason I am In USA , Kastorianos is Germany or that island boy Canaris in Canada ... :DYes but you are an Alvanos...and your feel proud(at least say you are) of being an Albo. Souliotes and all Arvanites know what relation they have with you historically but still they call themselves Greeks.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Feb 7, 2009 14:48:26 GMT -5
of course they call themselves Greek today as well as others like I call myself American or Kastorianas a German assimilation ....regardless if its invited assimilation or uninvited when I visit South America I go as an American....unless I meet some balkan people at a cafe .... then I get deeper
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Feb 7, 2009 15:14:52 GMT -5
ahahahahahah....this is the first time I'm hearing of a Cham "dialect" i did not know that Donnie....can u write it down? be more specific? i have Chams in my family, they dont have a Cham dialect though but a Korcar one
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