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Post by serban on Jan 9, 2009 7:02:25 GMT -5
Do you know if the works of ancient Greek and Byzantine historians are available on internet?
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 9, 2009 18:17:10 GMT -5
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Post by serban on Jan 9, 2009 19:04:23 GMT -5
Thanks. i don't speak Greek but i'll see what i can do. Is Tobrotizas the nominative case, the one we find in dictionaries? Does the stress move to other syllables in other cases? Can you tell me if in Byzantine Greek there was a habit of changing the "d" in foreign toponyms or anthroponyms with "t" when introduced in Greek texts? For instance: the town Drastar (or Drustur), now Silistra in Bulgaria was written Tristris, Trestris. As far as I know there is no "d"-sound in modern Greek, only when preceded by "n" spelled "nt" and in loanwoards. Was that the same in Byzantine Greek? Another thing the medieval ruler now commonly spelled Dobrotitsa appears for the first time in documents as Tomprotitzas whereas in Latin documents variants with 2 "d"s are mentioned: Dobrodicii, Dobrodich, Dobrodics, Dobrodisse.
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 10, 2009 6:17:41 GMT -5
Thanks. i don't speak Greek but i'll see what i can do. Is Tobrotizas the nominative case, the one we find in dictionaries? Yes this is the nominative. Does the stress move to other syllables in other cases? In this name no. Can you tell me if in Byzantine Greek there was a habit of changing the "d" in foreign toponyms or anthroponyms with "t" when introduced in Greek texts? For instance: the town Drastar (or Drustur), now Silistra in Bulgaria was written Tristris, Trestris. As far as I know there is no "d"-sound in modern Greek, only when preceded by "n" spelled "nt" and in loanwoards. Was that the same in Byzantine Greek? Another thing the medieval ruler now commonly spelled Dobrotitsa appears for the first time in documents as Tomprotitzas whereas in Latin documents variants with 2 "d"s are mentioned: Dobrodicii, Dobrodich, Dobrodics, Dobrodisse. Well yes,it was common to make the "d" into "t"..."t" sounds more " gently". In Greek the sound "d" is represented with "nt",you're right.
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Post by serban on Jan 11, 2009 2:32:33 GMT -5
There seems to have been a custom for the medieval Greeks to call Bulgarian rulers using their name + suffix -itsa: Ioannitsa=Kaloyoannes, Tobrotitzas. Do you have other examples, maybe of Greek rulers called this way in Greek? Is this a diminutive suffix? Was it always stressed on "i": TobrotItzas? Another thing is that Tobrotizas has final "s" whereas Ioannitsa doesn't.
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 11, 2009 5:42:45 GMT -5
The suffixes -itzis,-itsis.-itsas,-itzi were used during byzantine times and after as diminutives for names,places etc etc...like these:Kyritzis,Papaditzis,Paiditsis,Skylitzes(the famous historian),koritsi(girl) etc. It was used in all greek dialects from South Italy to Cappadocia and Pontos and Cyprus. Final "s" goes in the nominative form of male names,things etc.
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Post by serban on Jan 11, 2009 7:19:32 GMT -5
The suffixes -itzis,-itsis.-itsas,-itzi were used during byzantine times and after as diminutives for names,places etc etc...like these: Kyritzis,Papaditzis,Paiditsis,Skylitzes(the famous historian), koritsi(girl) etc. It was used in all greek dialects from South Italy to Cappadocia and Pontos and Cyprus. Final "s" goes in the nominative form of male names,things etc. Thanks a lot Moraitis. You are of real help. Can you tell me whether Skylitzes (dminutive name) was his real name or was he named Skylos/Skyles or something similar but the custom was to use diminutive names in order to show love, affection? What i mean were these diminutival names use together with their non-diminutival forms? Is it possible therefore for Dobrotitzas name to have been actually Dobrota, like Ioanitsa was really named Kaloyoannes? I just took a look on the Greek page of Kaloyan and it says his name was ÊáëïãéÜííçò or Éùáííßôóçò(Kaloiannes or Ioannitses). Should it be KaloiOannes instead of Kaloiannes? As i understand the words composed with this suffix "-itsa" are always stressed on the suffix (on "i")
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 11, 2009 11:28:14 GMT -5
Many of the Greek surnames are diminutive forms of names. For example if one is called Ioannis or Yiannis(the simple form) the diminutive forms(that became surnames) can be(it depends from the area): Yiannakis,Yiannakos,Yiannoudis,Yiannitsis,Yiannidhis,Yiannopoulos, Yiannousis,Yiannoulis,Yiannelis,Yiannikas,Yianneas,Yiannoutsos etc etc So you can guess that Skylitzis' name could be Skylos(dog), and Dobrotitzas' initial name was Dobrot... When a "John" is baptised the priest name him Ioannis, but we use the form Yiannis in vulgar tongue. So the correct form could be Kaloyiannis,as the people called him(it means Good John).
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Post by serban on Jan 11, 2009 18:45:15 GMT -5
Ok, thanks. So Skylitzes was the historian's name or surname? Did surnames even exist during Skylitzes time? wikipedia says his name was ἸùÜííçò Óêõëßôæçò (sorry about the first letter, i told you i don't have all the fonts). Were both these names first names (first and middle name with which they were baptized) or one was first name and the other surname (Skylitzes)? It seems that sometimes both the diminutive form of the name and the normal form were used: Kaloyoannis and Ioanitsis. I guess it is possible that other people were called in both this ways. Do you know of any such example besides Kaloyan?
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