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Post by serban on Jan 11, 2009 2:26:35 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me what was the region of today's Greece where Slavic invasion of 6th century didn't take place? As far as I know the Slavs setteled even as south as Peloponese peninsula but they were assimilated quickly because they were few. Was there any region of today's Greece with no Slav presence as a result of Slavic invasion? Like Epirus?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 11, 2009 3:08:56 GMT -5
Just follow toponymy. Where Slav toponymy is found, you probably had some historical Slav presence, though toponyms can be misleading. They can exaggerate the importance of any Slav settlement. They might also have arisen through loan words, i.e. Greeks or even Albanians (Arvanites) founding villages with the help of Slav loan words. This has happened in Attica.
I am not an expert, but I would guess that the Aegean islands experienced little or no Slav settlement. Epirus which you mentioned has had Slav presence, but this element dissappeared long ago.
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Post by serban on Jan 11, 2009 3:27:43 GMT -5
Just follow toponymy. Where Slav toponymy is found, you probably had some historical Slav presence, though toponyms can be misleading. They can exaggerate the importance of any Slav settlement. They might also have arisen through loan words, i.e. Greeks or even Albanians (Arvanites) founding villages with the help of Slav loan words. This has happened in Attica. I am not an expert, but I would guess that the Aegean islands experienced little or no Slav settlement. Epirus which you mentioned has had Slav presence, but this element dissappeared long ago. OK, i meant mainland Greece. Was it all invaded by Slavs?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 11, 2009 4:23:25 GMT -5
It depends on what you mean with 'all'. Perhaps the Slavs touched all territories to some extent, but in most cases it was not something major, otherwise the Slav element would have persisted through time, atleast longer than it did infact. Mountainous territories were probably less touched, and there were probably some regions they bypassed in their journeys, such as perhaps Acarnania (just guesses).
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Post by Kassandros on Jan 11, 2009 5:59:45 GMT -5
Yeap, the Slavic invasion reached even down in Pelloponese. The biggest wave was in the outskirts of Patra (Peloponesse) where Greeks from all over the country gathered there and gave a fight with that big wave. The Slavic wave lost the battle and the immigration didnt take place. That Slavic wave had so many people that Patra alone couldnt handle it. The Slavs were far more than the Peloponeseans of that area.
In Epirus and Islands there were no Slavic waves.
In Thessaloniki the Slavs were the second group in numbers. Greeks, Bulgarians, Jews and last the Ottomans.
In Halkidiki no Slavic presence at all.
In the villages of Macedonia, there were many Bulgarian villages near to Ottoman villages and near to the majority of Greek villages. During the Macedonians Struggle and later after the WW2, the Slavic presence in Macedonia ended after the fights.
Silmutaneusly, Greek presence in Monastiri (Bitola), Phillipoupoli (Plodiv), Para-Dounavian cities and Eastern Romelia ended too.
In other words.... many Greeks moved to the south where they were the majority and many Slavs mooved to the north where they were the majority too.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 11, 2009 6:50:17 GMT -5
Slavs being farmers and shepherds didn't establish in towns and cities but in plains,initially. Later due to Byzantine acts(see Stavrakios campaign in Peloponnesos,or Krinitis Arotras) they had to take refuge in high mountains like(north Taygetus,Minthe,east Erymanthus). For example,according to Porphyrogennitos,in 804 the Slavs of the region of north Peloponnesos(Achaia), after pillaging the "houses of the neighbor Graikoi" attacked Patra with the help of Saracens by sea but they failed after the "exodus"-sortie of the citizens of Patra who defeated them with out the help of the Romaic army which supposed to come from the thematic capital,Corinth. Also,of course according to Porphyrogennetos, the victory came after...the help of Saint Andreas(protector of Patra,he was crussified here by the Romans...we don't work on 30 of November ;D), so episcopate of Patra became a Metropolis, and the defeated Slavs were forced to become subjects of Saint Andreas' church and had to pay and be servents to any foreign guest. These facts show the small,but unbowed...till then,number of the Slavs,in North Peloponnesos.
According to Chronicle of Monemvasia the eastern half of Peloponnesos never experienced Slavic colonization, and its obvious in the toponymy of the area.
South and central Peloponnesos' precence of Slavs is more documented and we know that Slavs there took refuge,as I said, in two mountainous areas,in North Taygetus,Milingoi on the west side and Ezerites on the east side. They caused problems and they pillaged the plain of Laconia, but after the Romaic pursuits they obliged to pay an annual tax. Their tax was not bigger than of this of Maniates,who lived souther,indicatory of their populations. They and those in Scorta(mount Minthe) survived until the coming of Franks. The slavic placenames coincide with the areas where we know from historical sourses that were settled by Slavs, and this combined with the small number of slavic words used in greek dialects(about 90 in Peloponnesos, according to Meyer/Neugriechische Studien) allow us to know that the slavic impact in Greek genepool was not big at all.
Donnie is right, about the slavic placenames.In Attica all the place names which Vasmer/Die Slaven in Griechenland consider slavic are greek or arvanitic(e.g. Varibobi,Beliza,Bala etc). This show that the Slavic colonization took place not from Attica to Corinthia where the true slavic place names are very rare, but through sea.
Now in the rest of Greece, if we exclude Macedonia where the slavic invasions have consequences till 20th century(population exchanges etc), slavic placenames can be found in many areas but not concetrated and are almost always names of small mountainous villages.
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Post by serban on Jan 11, 2009 7:27:14 GMT -5
Slavs being farmers and shepherds didn't establish in towns and cities but in plains,initially. Later due to Byzantine acts(see Stavrakios campaign in Peloponnesos,or Krinitis Arotras) they had to take refuge in high mountains like(north Taygetus,Minthe,east Erymanthus). For example,according to Porphyrogennitos,in 804 the Slavs of the region of north Peloponnesos(Achaia), after pillaging the " houses of the neighbor Graikoi" attacked Patra with the help of Saracens by sea but they failed after the "exodus"-sortie of the citizens of Patra who defeated them with out the help of the Romaic army which supposed to come from the thematic capital,Corinth. Also,of course according to Porphyrogennetos, the victory came after...the help of Saint Andreas(protector of Patra,he was crussified here by the Romans...we don't work on 30 of November ;D), so episcopate of Patra became a Metropolis, and the defeated Slavs were forced to become subjects of Saint Andreas' church and had to pay and be servents to any foreign guest. These facts show the small,but unbowed...till then,number of the Slavs,in North Peloponnesos. According to Chronicle of Monemvasia the eastern half of Peloponnesos never experienced Slavic colonization, and its obvious in the toponymy of the area. South and central Peloponnesos' precence of Slavs is more documented and we know that Slavs there took refuge,as I said, in two mountainous areas,in North Taygetus,Milingoi on the west side and Ezerites on the east side. They caused problems and they pillaged the plain of Laconia, but after the Romaic pursuits they obliged to pay an annual tax. Their tax was not bigger than of this of Maniates,who lived souther,indicatory of their populations. They and those in Scorta(mount Minthe) survived until the coming of Franks. The slavic placenames coincide with the areas where we know from historical sourses that were settled by Slavs, and this combined with the small number of slavic words used in greek dialects(about 90 in Peloponnesos, according to Meyer/Neugriechische Studien) allow us to know that the slavic impact in Greek genepool was not big at all. Donnie is right, about the slavic placenames.In Attica all the place names which Vasmer/Die Slaven in Griechenland consider slavic are greek or arvanitic(e.g. Varibobi,Beliza,Bala etc). This show that the Slavic colonization took place not from Attica to Corinthia where the true slavic place names are very rare, but through sea. Now in the rest of Greece, if we exclude Macedonia where the slavic invasions have consequences till 20th century(population exchanges etc), slavic placenames can be found in many areas but not concetrated and are almost always names of small mountainous villages. Thanks everybody. You have been very helpful. So there are some parts of Greece where the Slavs have never existed. Until now of course i mean the immigrants looking for jobs
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Post by Kastorianos on Jan 11, 2009 9:36:57 GMT -5
Slavs have been everywhere in mainland Greece. Why shouldnt they have been in Epirus, too? Ioannina was once part of the Bulgarian empire. The targeted graecization of the Slavs was part of a byzantine policy. Slavs had even put a foot on Asia Minor...and Constantinople of course...they all became Greeks...and some of them again later on Turks...
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 11, 2009 10:29:58 GMT -5
^ Byzantine state only cared to christianize any non-christian population within its dominion and ofcourse to take the taxes , they didn't care about their language...see the Slav survivors in Peloponnisos till 15th century,or Slavs in South Macedonia side by side with Greek villages. Today Albania,Skopia and parts of Bulgaria were very long time under Romaic dominion and still they spoke/speak their own language. Slavs were graecisized only where and when they were few among a populous Greek population.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 11, 2009 13:00:24 GMT -5
Perhaps the islands were bypassed (though a Slav expedition reached Crete), but not Epius. Slav toponymy is present to a considerable ratio in Epirus. Metsovo is a clear example.
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Post by Kassandros on Jan 11, 2009 13:37:32 GMT -5
yeah maybe in some places in Epirus, Slavic presence could be found... but I'm sure it was very limited.
Also, the Slavic toponyms, play no role. My village had Slavic toponym given by Bulgarian villagers of... other villages. There is not even one Bulgarian speaker (Slavophone) in my village and never was. To be more precise... it was the main pool of Macedonian Struggle warriors and the pool for Greek revolution in 1821. Too Greeks On the contrary the village next to us was 100% Bulgarians. Today is ruins but the name they were calling our village existed until 1944. So.. I believe names are indifferent to an extend..
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Post by rebelyell on Jan 11, 2009 13:38:03 GMT -5
Didn't Greece "Hellenize" a lot of villages names because they were Slavic (especially in Macedonia to avoid FYROM claiming that territory)?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 11, 2009 13:53:00 GMT -5
yeah maybe in some places in Epirus, Slavic presence could be found... but I'm sure it was very limited. Also, the Slavic toponyms, play no role. My village had Slavic toponym given by Bulgarian villagers of... other villages. There is not even one Bulgarian speaker (Slavophone) in my village and never was. To be more precise... it was the main pool of Macedonian Struggle warriors and the pool for Greek revolution in 1821. Too Greeks On the contrary the village next to us was 100% Bulgarians. Today is ruins but the name they were calling our village existed until 1944. So.. I believe names are indifferent to an extend.. I am not saying the Slavs were a majority. But there would be no Slav toponyms in Epirus if there were no amount of Slavs there at some time. Rebelyeli Yes, in 1935 Greece renamed alot of villages with foreign meanings and gave them pure Greek names. Maybe we should follow their example in Albania.
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Post by srbobran on Jan 11, 2009 14:16:52 GMT -5
Slavs reached as far as the Peloponnese. Also, in Bynthia you had Serbian cities from which Serbian mercenaries and reserves were called up. Gordoserbon survived as a mainly Serb city till the 1200's. In fact these same Serbs (a good chunk of them, not all of them) and other Slavs rebelled against the Byzantines in alliance with the Arabs and later migrated to places like Syria and later rose through the ranks of the caliphate. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqaliba
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 11, 2009 15:02:32 GMT -5
I think the Byzantines made some effort to assmilate the Slavs of the Peloponnese considering how much they stressed the negative aspect of the invasion. The area was lost to Byzantine control for almost two centuries and so little survives from that period that even coinage becomes scarce, pointing to a serious decline in the region at this time. Once Byzantine control was re-established there must have been a serious attempt to break up the cohesion of the Slavic tribes by destroying the ethnos. For instance with the Vandals the Byzantines deported all the men to other regions of the empire and married off much of the Vandal women to other Byzantines in the area.
Its very possible that such a policy might have been followed for the Peloponnesian Slavs: destruction of tribal cohesion and ethnos, mixed with deportation and inter-marriage to local Greek speakers for full assimilation.
1. Albanians were mountainous and the Byzantines had a very difficult time in trying to keep full control over the areas. Kruja for instance was given high autonomous privilages for a significant amount of time of the later Byzantines and one of the big questions for the empire in that zone was how to manage the Albanians, which was never actually answered considering the later disruption caused by Albs; which, ironically, was something which the Serbs promoted. They often helped Albs in moving southwards in order to cause disruption to the empire and Dusan granted Albs a number of later troublesome settlements in macedonia.
2. Much the same in other zones, Macedonia (FYROM) fell out of Byzantine control numerous times and was taken over by Slavs who maintained continued control over the area in the final centuries of the empire, samething with Bulgaria. In both cases the Slavic invader had most control over the region and had multiplied there to a such an extent that they began forming an identity around the zone,
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Post by Kassandros on Jan 12, 2009 17:37:38 GMT -5
Donnie "Rebelyeli Yes, in 1935 Greece renamed alot of villages with foreign meanings and gave them pure Greek names. Maybe we should follow their example in Albania. " ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thats true Donnie. Greeks renamed many toponyms in Greece from the Slavic form. The funny thing is... the new names were given... were the old names before Turkish occupation. For example, if ever Istanbul would became Greek, Greeks would rename the city to Constantinoupoli. I see nothing wrong with that; A city or village or a toponym to have the initial name.. ? Dont you find it better? Authentic is what it counts. PS. I suggest dont do the same with the Greeks because you gonna find yourselves in a weird situation . We had the authentic and old names to give again to the places. If you do the same... you gonna find... funny and weird names for your language... like Appolonia etc Really.. that will not be a smart moove. Shhhhhh... keep silent... shhhhh lol lol
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Post by Kassandros on Jan 12, 2009 17:40:26 GMT -5
Rebelyell "Didn't Greece "Hellenize" a lot of villages names because they were Slavic (especially in Macedonia to avoid FYROM claiming that territory)? " ------------------------------------------------------------------ lol lol lol Dude.. .do you know what is the funny thing in your sentence? FYROM didnt exist that period! lol lol Only Bulgaria and Bulgarians! lol lol Who would believe those years that today somebody named Fyromian... could claim Macedonian territory? lol lol
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 12, 2009 18:35:07 GMT -5
A toponym that changes naturally is authentic, changing it the way Greece did in 1930 is unauthentic since its putting awareness to it and focusing on it. Its artificial.
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Post by Kassandros on Jan 12, 2009 19:03:25 GMT -5
So... you prefer the name Solun that means nothing.... from the historic name Thessaloniki, the sister of Alexander the Great and the reason this city was builted 2,300 years ago and still exists big and proud??
It sounds... like we try to "hide" the past, the history and the evidence of this city. Is it something we like..?
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 12, 2009 19:15:38 GMT -5
Doesnt matter what it means, an evolution is an evolution and that's what happens in history, meanings get diluted and replaced and later on we lose the initial meaning. And the Greeks never called it Solun, that was the Bulgarian name so I don't see what argument you have here.
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