Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 3, 2009 7:13:30 GMT -5
I don't want to read crap from 'European travelers'.. or even a guy like Robert Elsie.... who visited Albania for the first time in 1978....
What truth is that ....? From people that didn't understand us.. and people that did not speak a word of Greek or Albanian and visited these lands and made assumptions... It's like me traveling to China an writing up a novel on what I saw there... without understanding a single word..
I have arguments with French people here and after a month I find out they were English... should I write a book putting down the French?
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 3, 2009 8:16:02 GMT -5
Just one logical question...if the albanians are trully the makers of modern Greece,why were they so late making an albanian state???why did they prefer making a greek state instead?why did they NOT fight for Albania? or for Romania (the greek vlachs?)
if arvanites are albanian and vlachs are romanian....why did they offer so much to Greece and almost NOTHING to the motherland?is it really a matter of national identity or merely a matter of origin...
once again i need to say that being bilingual is not nessecarily a proof for the national identity of a human or a population.This element is simply not enough.There were many communities that spoke another language despite the fact of*greek nationality.Kappadocians spoke turkish.Macedonians often spoke slavic.Vlachs speak a latin language.And Arvanites spoke albanian.They all proved to be worthy greek patriots who offered their fortune and life for the greek cause.
But why dont you have a look at a VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE,WRITTEN BY AN ARVANITI???lets see,what do these people think about albanians....
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 3, 2009 8:26:08 GMT -5
now,about the arvaniti issue....lets hear it from an arvaniti... www.balkanium.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4758Hello everybody, since I am new in the forum, let me introduce myself : I am greek, 50% arvanite in blood (from my fathers side, my grandparents left volunteerly their village, that today is in Bulgaria, in 1919, believing they were Greeks and not Bulgarians. Before 1919, while their village was in Ottoman empire, they had in the village a greek school, financed by their community, and the best students received scholarships from the community to continue studies at the greek highschool of Edirne. (Fan Noli , coming from an arvanite village of eastern Thrace, studied in the same highschool)). I cannot understand why the issue of arvanites existing in Greece for more than 200 years in the south and 100 years in the north is used from some members of the forum as a tool to increase or create tension between the 2 countries. There are more than 4-5 million greek people in USA, most of them 2nd or 3rd generation english-speaking americans that have forgotten their parents language ( or learn it as foreign language for sentimental reasons), and this population is concidered as a bridge of friendship and economic relationship both from USA and Greece. What is the problem with arvanites ? Their anchestors moved to the south in middle age seeking for a better life. At a time when religion was more important than nation or language (1400-1900), being christian orthodox they joined the christian orthodox greeks and the christian orthodox vlachs in a common revolt against the muslim ottoman empire that aupressed all of them. Since the indepentent state that came out from this revolt was concidered from Europe as the succesor of the ancient Greek glory and history, and since at that time the language the most respectful and with a huge heritage in written works and grammar was greek, what most logical for them to accept the domination of greek culture, language and heritage for the state where thy belonged? While at the same time there was no discrimination at all, they were participating at all levels of administration (even some of the first prime-ministers of the new state were arvanites, and the first regulation code of the greek navy was written in arvanite language so that the majority of the marins who were arvanites could understand it). Some very recent examples of the arvanites position in Greece : The new Archbishop of Greece , Ieronymos, comes from a purely arvanite village (Inofyta), and his family name is Liapis. The minister of cultural affaires of Greece, cousin of prime-minister Karamanlis, is also called Michalis Liapis. To conclude, in my opinion the arvanite case should be used to point out that there is a good percentage of albanian blood in what is today the greek nation. Therefore, Greeks and Albanians have good reasons to disregard things that separate them, and point out things that join them.
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 3, 2009 8:29:13 GMT -5
www.balkanium.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4758I live in Greece, and I grew up in Western Thrace, where, in prefecture of Evros mainly there are 15-20 arvanite villages . Almost all of them are refugees, either from Haskovo area in Bulgaria (my village and 3-4 around it), or from the east shore of Evros river. These guys during the very difficult years between 1919-1923, had chosen to leave their villages and properties, in order to move within the newly formed borders of Greece at that area. These populations during the guerilla struggle that took place during 1904-1908 in Macedonia and Thrace between greeks and bulgarians, formed partisan groups that were fighting on the greek side. If they did not consider themselves greeks, they would have stayed neutral. My point is that there is no meaning in the effort of Albanian friends to discover an Albanian identity at today's arvanites of Greece. We are not stupid, we all know that the arvanite language is very very similar to Albanian Tosk, and that we have common blood and common anchestors with the Albanians, at least those of the south. But we also know that our grand-grand parents had decided to participate actively in the formation of the greek state back in 1821, and our grand fathers and parents have educated us that we are greeks as everybody else in the country. ;D ;D ;D And you cannot accuse our anchestors as traitors of their Albanian identity, because they never had one. They decided that they were greeks around 1770-1830, during an era of revolts of the christian people of the south of Balkans against the Ottoman rule. Actually they called themselves Romioi (which comes from Romans) as every other christian in the area that is today Greece and Turkey. At that time a growing urban class of merchants, intellectuals, civil servants of the Ottoman empire, succesful immigrants in Venice, Russia, Austria and Romania, created the ideology that all these Romioi, form a nation that not only has to inherite the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium), but also are the inheritants of the civilization, glory and history of ancient Greece. This was the creation of the identity of the modern greek nation, and who is to blame that our anchestors, brave fighters and military leaders, decided to join this dream ? Their choice was Ottoman or Greek, not Albanian or Greek. The first Albanian indelectuals that started to form the idea of an Albanian nation appeared around 1900, almost 100 years later (when in Greece lived the 4rth generation of the fighters and heros of the 1821 revolution), and their influence never reached the southern and eastern parts of the Balkans. The fellow villagers of Theofanis Nolis, who left their village in 1923, during the greek-turkish exchange of populations, and their children now live in one of the Arvanite villages of Evros, or somewhere else in Greece (I found 3 Nolis at the telephone catalogue of Evros), I'm almost sure they have no idea that from their village derives one of the indelectual and political founders of the modern Albanian nation. I know about him just because my hobby is Balkan history, especially around the area of Thrace, and therefore I read a lot of books on the issue. Last point. Are the arvanites of Greece offended if someone calls them Albanians, or tries to persuade them that they have Albanian blood ? ok, there are two different attitudes. There are arvanites who are either more educated or have a liberal attitude in subjects concerning nationalism, purety of blood, arian race and things like that. These guys simply don't care, and just because of of their mentality, you cannot make them proud of having albanian blood. This type of people are rationalists, and they could be proud of their blood only if their cousins had created a state less corupted than theirs (ie Norway), more technologically developped (ie Germany), more democratic (ie Nederlands), more powerful (ie USA) etc etc depending on the values of eachone. There are also arvanites that are either of a lower education (their info just comes from primary school, neighborhood and tv), or have strong right-wing ideas on nation, race, religion etc. These guys could easily become proud Albanians, if Albania was a country similar to the ones I mentioned above, a country that would make them feel that they want to migrate there. But when you try to remind them that they have Albanian blood, and their image of Albania is : 1. The poor fellow (good poor looking guy) that works for them in their fields or businesses, 2. The bad criminal they see on the 20.00 news bulletin, 3. The muslim UCK fighter that fights against the christian brothers in Kosovo 4. The bloody albanian guy who managed his life better than themselves, bought an appartment and a new car, has a good business or salary, his son was the best pupil, holding the greek flag at the national parade and is now studying at Athens University 5. The Albanian state of today, poor, corrupted, underdevelloped (5 characteristic perceptions for Albanians you we find in Greece), Sorry but these types of arvanites will strongly deny that they have anything to do with Albanians, and they will feel insulted to be called so. ;D ;D ;D Sorry for the long post. I went through the discussion, and I hope I came with a new perspective. I dont challenge the issues whether arvanites have albanian blood, when they appeared in the peninsula, are they illirians or are there the real ancient greeks and such historical questions. I try to clear the point to which degree the today's arvanites of Greece feel themselves greeks. And my personal view is 100%, and this goes back at least 3 to 6-7 generations. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 3, 2009 8:30:33 GMT -5
well said...
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 3, 2009 8:39:11 GMT -5
brave greek,this arvaniti...
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 3, 2009 8:42:34 GMT -5
yes...he's right though.
everything else is just piss in the wind...
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 3, 2009 8:49:42 GMT -5
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 3, 2009 8:51:36 GMT -5
cherry on the cake....^^^
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Post by leandros nikon on Mar 3, 2009 9:03:04 GMT -5
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Post by Duke John on Mar 3, 2009 9:12:25 GMT -5
The main problem is that many Albanians do not seem clearly to understand what being a greek means, being a greek is not depended on your ethnic backround in other words it is not an ethnic concept, being a greek is more like ideological,cultural and linguistic concept and it has been like that for very long time, today greeks are of many different ethnic backrounds who once have integrated fully to greek culture and language, there are ethnic backrounds from asia minor and from other ethnic groups of balkans such as slavs, albanians, bulgarians, but now all of them are greeks, fully integrated and fought as a greeks for greece, it is stupid to make noise about arvanites and debate about their ethnic roots, it is undeniable that once their ancectors were from the same ethnicity as albanians ancectors, the moust important thing is that now they see their selfs as greeks and thats what matters unless an arvanite distinguish him self personally from other greeks,but then thats another storry.
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 3, 2009 9:19:48 GMT -5
no my friend....the problem is that you albos think of everything from a "pure gene pool" perspective. The funny part is...you guys are probably more mixed than we are. Make no mistake....greek colonies were from Spain to Asia. So how can we just " disappear " to a " mutt " race that " recently " defined ourselves to " greeks " ?!
We kept are traditions, language, and identity constant throughout the ages. From Hellenes, to Greakoi to Romoi...we had the greek language to identify ourselves with our ancestors.
Can you do the same ? So how can a ppl that have no record of their ancestral language claim pure lineage from an non-existant group such as the illyrians.
you guys are still trying to find your identity....we found ours loooong time ago.
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 3, 2009 9:25:16 GMT -5
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Post by Duke John on Mar 3, 2009 9:35:34 GMT -5
no my friend....the problem is that you albos think of everything from a "pure gene pool" perspective. The funny part is...you guys are probably more mixed than we are. Make no mistake....greek colonies were from Spain to Asia. So how can we just " disappear " to a " mutt " race that " recently " defined ourselves to " greeks " ?! We kept are traditions, language, and identity constant throughout the ages. From Hellenes, to Greakoi to Romoi...we had the greek language to identify ourselves with our ancestors. Can you do the same ? So how can a ppl that have no record of their ancestral language claim pure lineage from an non-existant group such as the illyrians. you guys are still trying to find your identity....we found ours loooong time ago. You lack to note the ethnic groups of asia minor and balkans that have integrated to greek culture and language for example the arvanites, being a greek is not a uniform body of people, its ideology,language,culture,religion and lifestyle. Being an Albanian is totally different to being a Greek, Being an Albanians is an ethnic concept something like a uniform body of people, mono-ethnic, language, culture regardless of religion, and thats why many albanians have problems understanding the meaning of greekness and the arvanite debate.
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 3, 2009 9:47:47 GMT -5
the first paragraph is not accurate, but its your opinion and thats fine.
the second paragraph is somewhat a paradox, because if that was the case....arvanites would not be an issue today to debate. They would still be a 100% " albanian "...but somewhere across the line a " split " was made and the arvanites decided to merge with their hellenic compatriots. The way it should be if you ask me...considering illyrians and hellens had the same ancestors
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Post by Duke John on Mar 3, 2009 10:05:20 GMT -5
the first paragraph is not accurate, but its your opinion and thats fine. the second paragraph is somewhat a paradox, because if that was the case....arvanites would not be an issue today to debate. They would still be a 100% " albanian "...but somewhere across the line a " split " was made and the arvanites decided to merge with their hellenic compatriots. The way it should be if you ask me...considering illyrians and hellens had the same ancestors Debating arvanites is very stupid and makes no sence, it is undeniable from which ethnic backround their ancestors once were, all it matters is now, they are integrated in greek world and they feel greek, about the illyrians and hellens having same ancestors well, the hellens of balkan peninsula and illyrians might have common ancectors but only the autochtonous balkanian hellens and not the other ethnic groups that have integrated later into greeks across the time, so the common ancestry has been divided very long ago.
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 3, 2009 10:12:10 GMT -5
i dont dispute the original ethnic origins of arvanites at all....but dont make them sound like they were ALL a hundred percent " albanian ". I also believe there were many that were of mixed hellenic-albo stock as well. But yes, im sure they were originally " albanian ".
Correct, the split between hellenes and illyrians happened a long time ago. Nothing wrong in combining though....its not like it would be something foreign to each other....
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Post by chalkedon on Mar 3, 2009 10:13:15 GMT -5
not too many ethnic groups contributed to the modern greeks...dont over-exaggerate...
provide sources to your " theory "...
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Mar 3, 2009 10:47:09 GMT -5
The "other" population groups(Arvanites,Vlachs) never formed more than 8-9% of the whole Greek population. The Greekness of the rest ~90% of the Greek populaton isn't less Greek because we accept those who want to be part of what we call "Hellenic ethnos" that has unbroken history of more than 3,000 years(DOCUMENTED AND NOT INTERNET FANTASIES).
The fact that Arvanites in Greece do not accept connection with Albanians(even if they share lot of things) shows that the national conscience of Albanians was something uncreated when Arvanites fought for a free Greece.
And DukeJohn, do you pretend to believe that Albanians are "pure"??...go check your vocabulary's origins to see how foreigners contributed in...and of course under the lownwords are obvious much genetic traits ....
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Post by Duke John on Mar 3, 2009 10:57:59 GMT -5
The Greekness of the rest ~90% of the Greek populaton isn't less Greek because we accept those who want to be part of what we call "Hellenic ethnos" that has unbroken history of more than 3,000 years(DOCUMENTED AND NOT INTERNET FANTASIES).Bingo!, thats what i been trying to say. And DukeJohn, do you pretend to believe that Albanians are "pure"??...go check your vocabulary's origins to see how foreigners contributed in...and of course under the lownwords are obvious much genetic traits .... No i dont pretend anything, i know that our nation derives from mono-ethnicity, and our vocabulary is special with big amount of words that cant be found in other languages with good amount of latin derived words, as for loan words, there was alot of loanwords from your neighbour that people used in everyday speach not long ago.
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