Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 3, 2007 16:50:26 GMT -5
Sometime it's easier to save your neighbor than it is the neighborhood.... Nazis had a more passion when they took Greece....
IT's like a Spaniard or a Portuguese person telling us they saved Jews....
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Nov 3, 2007 21:16:58 GMT -5
" And as for paying the Albs, there is no evidence for that, none, your just adding things based on your own biase. "
I believe with Canaris about Balkan people and being as self-helpful as the situation might allow rather then being authentically humanitarian.
I remember coming across reports that during the Kosovo war some of the local Albanians (NW Albania across Kosovo border) were charging exuberant prices from Kosovar (Albanian) refuges for housing etc. If such is the case certainly one would expect that this practice would certainly not cease if one being helped was not even Albanian but say -- Jewish instead. Of course I am not saying everyone would repeat and exhibit same behavior but some percentage is what is at stake here.
Basically what is at stake here. Lets analyze the situation. It is second world war and jews are being rounded up by Nazis or their local allies. Is someone going to tell me that a non-Jew is likely to help a Jew even at expense of endangering their own family FOR NOTHING. Now, if profiteering is added into the equation then one would say that such chances would drastically increase wouldn't they?
War time is when vast majority of the population becomes poorer and a small minuscule minority becomes richer. It also a time of quick profit (examples of situations when even bread is exchanged for gold) and war is likely not the time when humans would discover the more nobler part of their inner self, on contrary.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
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Post by donnie on Nov 3, 2007 21:58:17 GMT -5
They weren't paid. It's just wishful thinking from Canaris' side who cannot comprehend the ancient fidelity of our ancestors who revered this virtue as something holy. I can understand if it is hard to comprehend by a foreigner. It is even hard for Albanians to understand the ways of our predecessors. In such an imaterial world, money were not what made someone a man, what gave you status. The besa, honor and burrnia (cojtsvo as Montenegrins say) were concepts that defined you as a worthy human being.
Forget '99: the capitalistic opportunism which characterizes much of the contemporary world has not spared the Albanians either. Likewise, Serbs sold weapons to the KLA which used the same weaponry to carry out actions against Serbian police and army.
The Jews of Albania and those who fled were economically ruined. They could offer us the same amount of money as they could have offered Serbs, Greeks or Romanians. Yet it was in Albania where not a couple of Jews were spared, but where the WHOLE Jewish community was saved from certain extermination. This because of the besa. It was done out of humanity, which as Toskaliku said, characterized the Albanians throughout history. Hardships, especially communism, had its impact on the inherited chivalry which defined Albanian mentality and which was so looked upon by western travellers and writers. The dynamic change of our world craved for diplomacy and other means to survive, as opposed to valour and complete sincerity and blinde fidelity.
These might seem like idealistic wishful fantasies of a lost romantic. But they are very true and were confirmed not only by neutral observers who had the opportunity to visit Albania before its character was soiled by the spineless ways of our neighbours. It was also confirme by people who historically were not necessarely so found of us.
[ftp]http://www.promacedonia.org/en/hb/hb_8_1.html[/ftp]
From Noel Brailsford's "Macedonia: Its Races And Their Future". This trustworthyness was something which saved the Jews. A sacred tradition among Albanians was the hospitality, which not only meant accommodation for the eventual visitor, but also the guarantee of his security, meaning that the host was infact obliged to even die for the sake of trying to rescue his guest/s. The Jews benefited from this old tradition and were saved because the Albanians did not see in them the hook nosed parasites that were described by the Nazi propaganda machine, but simple people in dire need of rescuing and shelter from one of the biggest if not the biggest tragedy in human history.
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 3, 2007 22:25:17 GMT -5
You guys have a lot of nerve to make a post about Jews in Albania... There were less than 250 Jews living in Albania in 1939.... yes that is 250 jews... and yes you saved a few...but more were taken to concentration camps..... And yu Donnie ...shouldn't talk about Besa.... cause your people lack it.... big time.,.... The SS Scanderbeg division was made up of Kosovars...which turned in many Jews and Serbs.... Here read it from a Jewish site... on what they think.... click here!!
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 4, 2007 4:41:45 GMT -5
Interesting that you mention this. During The Kosova crisis, my grandmother housed three entire families in her home(which was the size of an apartment). Btw, during this crisis the Albanian Orthodox church organized one of the largest refugee help units. Not to mention the fact that thousands of North Albs flooded to the ranks of the KLA and that thousands of weapons were smuggled into Kosovo from Albania. Wow, Canaris, you seem to not have read the article itself. The official record was 200, but the number of Jews in Albania swelled during WW2. Yea, we were the only nation that had more Jews then we started with. Atleast as many as 2000 came through Albania. As for Suarts article, I wont even go into it since its from Carl Savich. Oh btw Canaris, an entire book, written by a Jew: www.juedisches-archiv-chfrank.de/kehilot/albania/alban-resc.htmAnd if the SS Skanderbeg killed Serbs, I doubt anyone really cares. It most cases it was justified IMO, since they were colonizers.
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 4, 2007 8:02:48 GMT -5
What did I say wrong ?!~ Besides there are many cases of Germans having saved some Jews from prosecution too in ww2, and I applauded them few Germans for doing the right thing also.
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Post by suart on Nov 4, 2007 9:11:38 GMT -5
So Melyt, you mean anyone like yourself SS devisions were created to exterminate the jews but any other race, they too were looked as colonizers of the German market. The SS devison of the kosovars took advantage of the situation and turned on serbs, killing en mass, justifiing the masacres only because the serbs were the first partisans in the war against the Nazis. If you talk about colonization...you shoud know better that it was the kosovars which used to settle in Kosovo after the batle of Kosovo polje, during the Ottoman time. P.S Talking for correction; Correct you written albanian first, don't play the litle kid that can not pronounce the words. You can fool none but yourself. Your albanian is as good as our PM Berisha's, only with a diverse dialect, from gegh to tosk. Try & do not lame when you write it. Te te them te verteten, nuk e kuptoj se qysh merr guxim dhe, a llogjokon ndonjehere se sa poshte e ule veten tende kur shkruan nje shqipe cap-cap? The most amazing thing is that if there are two statements written from you; the first is lame but, the second is as perfect as it can't be. Do not be another albanian fool whom, today writes perfect (as you done a few time with me to the turkish forum) but, the next day, forgets and writes a bastard albanian. As for cousins... all nations are my cousins, black, white, yellow etc. Just behave and learn more about the value of freedom and expession, Melyt aka Toskaliku.
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Mimi
Amicus
Kosovo IS Albania!
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Post by Mimi on Nov 4, 2007 10:17:17 GMT -5
I dont think he is gonna cry over what you say, he got offended by a lowlife bid deal,,,,you only talk bullshit!
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 4, 2007 10:21:45 GMT -5
They are a compassionate people but they have no problem killing Serbs.... what a go Melty... 100% of what amount.... 10?
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 4, 2007 12:12:09 GMT -5
The Jewish victims of the Holocaust in Albania are estimated at 591 from 1941 to 1944, when a Greater Albania was sponsored by Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. There were 33 known families of Albanian Jews living in pre-war Albania. The largest Jewish community consisted of 15 Jewish families living in Vlora. According to the 1930 census, there were 204 Jews living in Albania. At the Wannsee Conference in 1942, when the Final Solution was organized, the total Jewish population of Albania was listed as 200 Jews. By 1939 there were Jewish refugees from Germany and Austria The two factors that explain why more Jews in Albania were not killed are that Albania was under Italian control and Albania had a very small Jewish population. It had a very small Jewish population because the country itself was small...so is not "small population" comparing to the size of the country and its inhabitants...Italian forces in Albania rejected the Final Solution as “the German disease” and did not enforce anti-Jewish measures. This is why Albanian Jews were “rescued” in Albania, not because of anything the Albanians did themselves. What is this new theory?? Who told you that??? Hey...some Albanians themselves were taken and sent to Germany in concentration camps for being comunists (read more about this) and because there were Germans running the country after Italy left it (capitulation) for a few years!!!! The small number of Jews in Albania also played a key role in why they were not killed. During the Italian occupation, they were able to disperse and blend in the general population. When Germany occupied Albania in 1943, the Jewish population was already beyond reach. So, if Germans wanted to find them, they couldn't?? I don't think so! What role did Albania play in the Holocaust? Albanian apologists maintain that no Jews were killed in Albania during the Holocaust. Is this accurate? What is the context of this statement? Albanian apologists have consciously and methodically falsified the Albanian role in the Holocaust. The way this was done was to totally suppress the fact that Kosovo-Metohija was a part of Albania from 1941 to 1944. Also left out is the fact that a Greater Albania was in fact created that included not only Kosovo-Metohija, Kosova in the Greater Albania ideology, but southern Serbian territory, territory in southern Montenegro, and western Macedonia, or Illirida. Albanian apologists distort history by implying that it was Albanians that rescued Jews. But in fact it was the Italian occupation forces that opposed the Final Solution and who rescued Jews. Another falsification is the omission of the role played by Xhafer Deva, a Kosovar Albanian Muslim, in the Greater Albanian state and in the Holocaust. That Italians didn't care for Jewish that might be true. The problem is when Germans arrived....Albanians didn't give up Jewish. Rescue in Albania is nothing more than a thinly-veiled propaganda tract. His subtitle is: “One Hundred Percent of Jews in Albania Rescued from Holocaust.” The book features an Albanian and Israeli flag on the cover. Van Christo, the Albanian president of the Frosina Foundation, has used the book for “fund raising purposes” to obtain money for the separatist campaign in Kosovo. Lobby money can buy you a lot of lies. That is the American way. And Sarner knows that. Now this is all propaganda, since there are Jewish people themselves to recall Albanian families who helped them (as the first article of this topic) and I am more inclined to bellieve that one... , same as you are inclined to believe this other one...In this propaganda tract, Sarner says nothing about the 21st SS Division “Skanderbeg”, made up primarily of Kosovar Muslim recruits, nothing about the genocide committed by Albanians against the Serbian and Jewish populations of Kosovo, and the genocide in Bosnia-Hercegovina, and Croatia. He says nothing about the destruction of Serbian Orthodox churches and cathedrals in Kosovo. He says nothing about the murder of Serbian Orthodox priests. You keep on mentioning this SS division as if this were the representative of Albania. What about Serb "Dora e Zeze" (Black hand) Division in Kosovo during Kosovo's crisis??? Serbs who used to kill civilians (in peace time) and other people??? Nobody is identifying Serbia with it! As p[er SS...were Albanian partisans who fought this SS division...in Kosovo and erverywhere... Who fought "Black Hand" division in Serbia and Kosovo???/ Is it ignorance? It is willful ignorance. He suppresses and deletes anything negative about Albania and Albanians. A fundamental aspect of propaganda is that it is one-sided, subjective, and tells only half the story. Under this definition, Rescue in Albania is pure propaganda. Perhaps he says what his heart feels like saying... Sarner begins his book on the Holocaust with a discussion of Greater Albania, Which is wrong (he must have writen for the land inhabited from Albanians but this person writing this article prefers to call it "Greater Albania" as to give some nationalistic colors to the issue..." The Four Vilayets” under Ottoman Turkey: Janina, Shkodra, Kosovo, and Manastir. This is merely a parroting of the Greater Albania ideology. Sam Vaknin, in “The Myth of Greater Albania”, October 18, 1999, in the Central Europe Review, argued the opposite view: “Historically, there was never a ‘Greater Albania’ to hark back to.” But this is absolutely and patently incorrect and false. Vaknin conveniently and inexplicably suppresses and deleted any mention of the 1878 Albanian League of Prizren, whose sole raison d’etre was to create a Greater Albania. In 1943, the Nazis sponsored the creation of a Second League of Prizren, whose goal again, was to create a Greater Albania. The Kosovar Albanian Muslim Skanderbeg Nazi SS Division was created to establish a Greater Albania. In fact, from 1941 to 1944, there was a Greater Albania which Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini created. Again wrong...so wrong....it was for the proclamation of indipendence and being a country and not four vilajets....same as other countries which had had their indipendence....they were not seeking Greater Albania...only to be known as Albania and not as Turkish or Italian colony within the lands inhabited by ALBANIANS....was it too much to pretend??? Why then other countries Greece, Italy, France...etc, proclaimed indipendence and were allowed to ask for it and Albanians no??? I see it as: I use the term Greater Albania not to allow you to have any oportunity to ask for nothing...otherwise, if you dare asking, I immediatly accuse you for Greater Albania!!! (Yougoslavia maybe must be reprimanded at this point for seeking Greater Yougoslavia)!!!! Vaknin seems to have amnesia on this point. He apparently has deleted the period 1941 to 1944 from his memory. This is convenient for his argument. Four years in the history of Kosovo and Albania are erased from the history books. It is as if the period 1941 to 1944 never even existed. Yes, it existed and were Germans who run the country and dictated their rules....trust me, a black period...Germans were so heartless....The supporters of Greater Albania and the creation of an independent Kosova are in serious denial and self-repression. Why? They don’t want to admit to themselves, or anyone else, that Adolf Hitler devised and developed the Greater Albania and independent Kosova policies long before they did. Adolf Hitler was there first. Hitler was prescient and way ahead of the curve on Kosovo. And this is why there is denial, amnesia, and psychological self-repression. The result is a falsification of history.You think Hitler and Mussolini cared about a Greater Albania? Again the game of terms...they operated in the areas where Albanians lived....What Sarner was not told is that these so-called Albanian Vilayets have non-Albanian majorities and were never part of Albania. And who has any evidence of registration of population in here as Sarner "forgot" to look upon??? This is the myth of Greater Albania. Janina is in northern Greece and has never been part of Albania. The population is majority Greek. There is a small Albanian minority in that former Ottoman Turkish “vilayet”. Manastir, or Bitola today, is in southern Macedonia which is majority Macedonian with a minuscule Albanian population. It was never part of Albania. Shkodra is the territory around southern Montenegro. Montenegro has a minority Albanian population and has never been part of Albania. Kosovo-Metohija is the cradle of the Serbian Orthodox church and of Serbian culture. The towns, cities, and villages all have Serbian names from the medieval period when it was part of Serbia. The oldest Serbian Orthodox churches are located in Kosovo. Albanian settlement and colonization during the Ottoman Turkish period could not erase its Serbian heritage. Moreover, Kosovo-Metohija was never a part of Albania. In fact, there had never been an Albanian state until 1912. But Sarner is silent about all of this. Now we are not discussing about the Greater Albania....but for the NON-Existense of Albania and Albanians at ALL.....in such...where are Albanians?? And why this word exists anyway??? Fitzhum created the 21st SS Division Skanderbeg with Xhafer Deva, made up mostly of Kosovar Muslim Albanians. As noted by Raul Hilberg in The Destruction of the European Jews (1961), Skanderbeg played a major role in the Holocaust, rounding up the Jews in Greater Albania who were subsequently sent to Bergen-Belsen where they were killed. I don't get it...Jews in Albania were not fought or fought from Albanians themselves...?? We just said that their survival was not becasue of Albanians , but because of being not persecuted....!!!!Sarner admitted that Jews in Kosovo were being sent to the concentration camps where they were killed: “All around them…in the annexed territories, Jews were being transported to the death camps.” He admits that Kosovo Jews were being killed. He doesn’t admit that it was the Albanians who rounded up the Jews so that they could be killed. Why the omission? He is writing propaganda. He seeks to falsify the Albanian role in the Holocaust. [/b] Hej....!!!! Don't get it.....doesn't make sense...read below...He grossly exaggerated the uniqueness of the “rescue” of Jews in Albania: “In Athens, the Jews refused to supply a list and there was a 50% survival rate.” He is factually wrong. In fact, the survival rate was 66% in Athens for Jews. Athens, like Albania, was in the Italian occupation zone. This explains why the Jews were “rescued”, not because of Albanian actions. It would be analogous to a cheerleader claiming credit for a win of the football team. In short, the Albanians had nothing to do with the so-called rescue. This is giving the Albanians credit for something that they were not responsible for. It is a falsification of history. It is out and out propaganda. Whatever the circumstates, happened in Albania...and Albania wasn't that far away from Germans' influence as someone wants to believe.......and if Albanians wanted to kill Jewish, they would have done it...but they didn't....Do I notice jelaousy here??? By contrast, in Bulgaria, an estimated 50,000 Bulgarian Jews were “rescued”. But Bulgarians did allow the Jews of Macedonia and Thrace, then a part of a Greater Bulgaria, to be deported and killed by German forces. Good to notice such a thing didn't happen in Albania after Germans' arrival... Albania was part of the route to then Palestine, containing several ports. Jewish refugees passed through Albania because it was on the way to Palestine, not because of an Albanian desire to “rescue” Jews. This is an absurd propaganda construction concocted by Sarner and his Albanian handlers .
And this is a counter-propaganda...aoutcome: worst then propaganda because nobody knows what Albanians felt about that time as to state: not because "Albanian desire" to rescue Jews...because there also might have ben the desire of Albanians NOT to rescue the Jews....but it didn't happen....Sarner does not examine World War II at any length. Although his subject matter is purportedly on World War II and the Holocaust, there is very little on the Holocaust itself. He finally gets around to discussing the Holocaust period in “Chapter 7”, which he titled “The Germans”. Most of the book is on Jewish settlement in Albania and the 1930s period when Jewish-American Herman Bernstein was the US Ambassador to Albania. There is almost no account of the Holocaust and World War II. Why is this? This is because Sarner does not want to elucidate, but obfuscate. He wants to cover-up, not reveal. Why would he want to do that?? Albanians, however, did play a major role in the Holocaust, the mass killings of Albanian Jews. Never heard of...Albanian Jews? Sarner calls Kosovo a part of “The Annexed Territories”. He doesn’t reveal that Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini created a Greater Albania. He doesn’t tell us that Kosovo-Metohija, parts of Montenegro, southern Serbia, and western Macedonia were all parts of a Greater Albania. Why? This is the exact same goal today of US foreign policy and of NATO. It is Adolf Hitler’s vision. But today, Hitler’s vision is taken up and revived by the US and NATO and Joe DioGuardi and Thomas Lantos. But Hitler did it first. But of course, Sarner is unaware of all this. His is a blissful ignorance. He does concede that Kosovo was made part of Albania: “In April, 1941” Kosovo “was annexed to Albania…” [/b] And I am confused of the fact that Albania was considered as part of Italy..... Here is what Sarner says about Kosovo: “The Jews in the ‘annexed area’ were not as fortunate as the Jews in Albania proper. Life in the annexed territories was not as secure and there were unfortunate incidents of Jews being abused by the local people.” Does he give any prove of abusing Jews? So he does grudgingly admit that Albanians did participate in the anti-Semitic outrages against the Jewish population, although he does not use the word “Kosovar Muslim” or “Albanian” but refers to “the local people”. Maybe because he wants to avoid being called a propagandist of Greater Albania!!!! There was a Jewish family that was killed in Albania. The Jewish family Ardel was killed by the Nazis in Albania, but Sarner qualifies this as being a family of partisans. They were killed not because they were Jewish, but because they were partisans. Germans would have killed for both reasons...What about the Balli Kombetar (BK, National Front in Shqip), which emerged after October, 1942 in Vlora, a BK stronghold, where it was founded by Midhat Frasheri? Why does Sarner omit any discussion of the BK? Was the BK an anti-Nazi resistance movement? Was the BK a Nazi/fascist collaborationist group? Sarner suppresses and covers up any information on the BK. Bernd Jurgen Fischer, the foremost US historian on Albania during the Holocaust, a professor of history at the Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis---Fort Wayne, explained the role of the BK as follows: Much of the Balli Kombetar, which had remained aloof, was finally convinced to throw in its lot with the Germans.” Fischer noted that three members of the BK joined the Rexhep Mitrovica cabinet in January, 1944. Mitrovica was a “Kosovar” or “Kosovan” Albanian. Mitrovica was the Prime Minister in the Nazi-created Greater Albania regime, later replaced by the Zogist Fikri Dine. Xhafer Deva, a Kosovar Muslim, was the interior minister under the Nazi regime. Thus, the two highest positions, the prime minister and interior minister of Greater Albania, were held by Kosovars from Kosovo. Kosovo Albanian Muslims ran Greater Albania. There was a dispute between communists and BK...Partizans fought them.....The collaboration of the Balli Kombetar with the Nazi and fascist forces is well-documented and well established. According to Fischer, “elements of the Balli Kombetar supported the Germans.” Fischer offered conclusive historical evidence and documentation that the Balli Kombetar, although opportunistic, concerned with gaining power, and forcefully annexing “Kosova” to a Greater Albania, was a Nazi/fascist collaborationist group. If they would have asked for a Greater Albania, they would have wanted to annex also parts of Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria...not ONLY parts inhabited by Albanians....;quite differently from Great Yougoslavia....which includes in it non Serb speaking population!!!! Some Balli Kombetar units cooperated with the Germans against the communists, and several Balli Kombetar leaders held positions in the German-sponsored regime. Albanian collaborators, especially the Skanderbeg SS Division, also expelled and killed Serbs living in Kosovo. …The nationalistic Geg chieftains and the Tosk landowners often came to terms with the Italians, and later the Germans…. Sarner incorrectly implied that Albania escaped all the horrors of the Final Solution and Holocaust. But this is not true. Albania too experienced the Holocaust. The German occupation forces imposed anti-Jewish laws in Kosovo. Kosovo Jews wore “J” for “Juden” or “Jew”. Kosovo Jews wore white armbands with the word “Jude” in black letters. ID cards were stamped with a red “J”. Josef Fitzhum was determined to carry out the Final Solution in Albania. Fitzhum ordered the Jews of Vlora deported. And at least one Jewish family was killed. Sarner finally got around to admitting that Albanians played an active and major role in the Holocaust: “In Prishtina, capital city of the annexed territories, the local authorities complied with German demands and jailed 60 Jewish men.”
The Albanian Government played an active role in the Holocaust. On April 1, 1942, the Albanian Minister of the Interior gave instructions to the Albanian Prefect of Police that Jews who came after the war started should be “gathered on a field of concentration.” On March 20, 1942, he had ordered that the Jews be imprisoned and a list of Jews provided. In Note C, The Fields of Concentration, Sarner conceded that this euphemistic language meant a concentration camp: “This was the name given to what were otherwise known as concentration camps. These were camps for civilians and…their populations were mainly Jews….The camps were surrounded by barbed wire….It was an ugly place.” This is a very roundabout and disingenuous and dishonest way to admit that the Albanian Government set up concentration camps for Jews in Albania. So was it or there wasn't any pressure forced by Germans to exterminate Jewish??? Sarner even finally conceded that the Albanian Government and Albanian authorities took an active part in the extermination of European Jews: “In June, 1943…the Albanian police chief suggested the jailing of certain Jews:
‘According to our investigation the Jews listed below are dangerous because they are propaganderizing [sic] against the Axis (Rome-Berlin) and they want to organize and hold meetings. We think these people should be taken away from here as soon as possible to one of the concentration fields, because their staying here could be dangerous to the regime.’” And yet...simple people defended Jewish...so?? His words contradict themselves... !!!!!! PS: As for Robert Shvarc...he was one of the most apriciated intelectual in Albania...if he wrote those words to his son, I think that he didn't deserve the morning day dedicated to him when he died....and at least must have shut the mouth as sign of respect for remaining alive...not "eat the bread and flipp the cup" as the saying goes..."!!!
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 4, 2007 12:14:54 GMT -5
Albanian did nothing special..... nothing to waste bandwith to be repeated here.... like I said you guys probably saved a few jews.... and I am almost positive that they paid you to do so... one minor detail that is being left out..
Canaris....again...I notice jealousy in your post!!!!!
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 4, 2007 12:47:35 GMT -5
I just don't like it...when things are exaggerated... blown up way out of proportion..... for the sake of showing off....
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Post by tripwire on Nov 4, 2007 13:34:06 GMT -5
Did you talk to Yad Vashim officials and other holocaust administrators? They and private Jewish interests organized this exhibit, not the Albanians. You must have a serious ethical flaw if you think saying 'thanks' this way is 'exaggerated or blown up out of proportion." If you want these 'exhibitions' and books stopped or burned, then make an offer to those saved Jews and their descendants to stop talking and reminding the world about Albania's Besa and their common decency to the persecuted Jews of WW2.
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Post by suart on Nov 4, 2007 13:36:41 GMT -5
Miss Teuta... You know what? With your quotations you gave nothing back, you just can't help it. As for Mimica: You can eat my bullnuts
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Post by suart on Nov 4, 2007 13:47:50 GMT -5
reminding the world about Albania's Besa Yea, right. We see how good the besa is, that is why the albanians are known too much in Europe about the blood feud.
A society that is in chaos of the mass revenge killing, a society without mercy towards the litle kids and women (they are not allowed to go outside or attend the classes) if they are connected to the blood feud.
Who's the besa worth it for? I do not get it! Besa=FAITH, do you call it faith when you can not maintain it toward a kid or a woman?
Can someone of you big guys with little ideas and big mouth explain to our balkan neighbours: Which one was born in the albanian society first and the other one after: -Besa- or -the blood feud-. Thank you.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 4, 2007 14:01:21 GMT -5
Besa is not faith Suart. Besa means vow or pledge. Besim is faith.
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Post by suart on Nov 4, 2007 14:36:55 GMT -5
You can turn the way you want or suit your interest...th meaning or policy of it, brings us at the same conclusion:
I pa'bese = without faith Besim, it derives from Besa besim = faith
Mos i zere bese= do not trust him/her
As I noted. Where is all this -besa-? If we still have blood feud, is the latter the current epidemy of besa? Or the way round?
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Post by tripwire on Nov 4, 2007 14:39:18 GMT -5
"A society that is in chaos of the mass revenge killing, a society without mercy towards the litle kids and women (they are not allowed to go outside or attend the classes) if they are connected to the blood feud. "
I think you confuse yourself too much about Besa. Have you or your ancestors participated in the above 'killings' of 'innocent' Serbs? I think this is why you feel antipathy towards yourself and your kind.
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Post by tripwire on Nov 4, 2007 14:43:24 GMT -5
"Where is all this -besa-? If we still have blood feud, is the latter the current epidemy of besa? Or the way round? "
Blood fued is the exact result of Besa, keeping your 'guests' safe from harm or exacting justice for any harm done. Blood fued, apparantly stems from someone doing an injustice to a 'guest' of the house that hold Besa over his dominion. Something I'm sure you're not familiar with, and why you condemn anyone who seeks justice through courts or other means.
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Post by suart on Nov 4, 2007 15:05:10 GMT -5
, Can someone give this chap his medicine? Anyway it shows the real state of a society in their habbitat. So, you agree with the Nazis' theory The jews had done harm to the european society and the albanians sheltered them as guests through their besa! I hope the next guest of this besa won't be Usamah. Dead right, I am not and will not, I wasn't born up the mountains nor in a low society. As for the serbs,(include even the rest of the balkans) I am sure they do have more sense then those whom still live in blood feud, hence they dare and speak of -besa-, what an ironic world.
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