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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 6, 2007 0:09:48 GMT -5
You are right on the mark here, neighbors who lack true identity have to create one.
Neighbors who had been denied the true identity my dear!
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 6, 2007 8:20:41 GMT -5
Yet, yet and yet [stomps foot now to maketh my point] strangely this identity has to be created ! No one was denying the Albs their identity, or anyone else for that matter if it was anyone it's was the stones of this mother earth all over the ground. They speak louder then books. She tells us what and who has been around during the millenniums of her history.
Takes time to create history rather then want it given to you. Right ?
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Post by suart on Nov 6, 2007 10:17:00 GMT -5
Arxhileas
[b]neighbors who lack true identity have to create one[/b] You hit rifght to the point man, weldone. teuta:
My dear, do I have to teach you geography now? Should I tell you that before you climb to the mountains you pass the fields, cross the valleys and then you reach the first ones.
Should I tell you that the wolves live up on the rocky mountain? Or, should I tell you some fairy tales with Cindorella, which I am sure you are not.
While you're reading this, have some bullnuts from Mimi's box.
Shalom.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 6, 2007 10:54:11 GMT -5
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Post by suart on Nov 6, 2007 11:12:32 GMT -5
I did say that, and repeat it: living with the wolves!. That is what the majority of the Catholics done. What can we do to an innocent girl who does not know it....? God forgive you dear.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 6, 2007 11:34:30 GMT -5
Therefore I wrote: living up the mountains and ISOLATED...thus the "laws" of a tribe to survive! These "tribal laws" exist still in some parts of Albania. Now, if what you mean to tell is: all Albania lives in a "tribal law"...I don't know what to say, but to remind you again that is a transition period, and won't be the happiest one for many years and many reasons. Before lecturing me Cindorella & Co. try to analyse the causes of this situation in Albania, since you seem to be so well informed about Albania...Maybe you'll find an answer....but be objective! Anyway I think we're out of topic here. May God forgive us all
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Nov 7, 2007 2:16:12 GMT -5
What are you talking about? NONE of Albania's Jews, be they indigenous Jews from Albania or Jewish refugees from other countries, were sent to concentration camps. They were all saved. One Jew did however die, but not because of him being Jewish, but because he died fighting as a Partisan. Altogether, around 2,000 Jews were sheltered and saved by Albanian families who at the same time risked EVERYTHING by helping these people in need.
If anything, Kosova is the very cradle of besa. You mention SS Skanderbeg. They were only a symbolical force composed by undisciplined, unserious 'volunteers' who had no interest in actually fighting for the German cause. Their only really shameful deed was the arresting and turning in of 281 Jews; of these, some 200 would die in Belsen. Altogether, of Kosova's 551 pre-war Jews, 210 died. While a shame, whether in numbers or percentually, that's far less than your 86 per cent killed Jews or Serbia's 94 per cent.
The Albanians' besa and honour was trully exemplified by our treatment of the Serbs, so good that you mentioned them. Firstly, 'turning in Serbs' -- you're making it sound as if the Serbs suffered the same persecution as the Jews did. Germany's racial laws did not apply to them. Nevertheless, a green sign was given to the Kosovar Albanians to basically create an ethnically homogenous entity (Kosova) which was to be ceded to 'Greater Albania'. Widespread persecution, mass killings and forceful expulsions had characterized the Serbian treatment of the Albanians in Kosova 1912-39. They had many reasons to feel vindictive. Not to mention that a sizeable proportion of the Serbian element in Kosova was not autochtonous, but fresh colonists summoned from the four corners of what was Yugoslavia.
Despite of this, Kosova was where the least of Serbian casualties were suffered! If we didn't have besa, we would have done as you did with the Chams; collectively blaming the Serbs for our pre-war miseries and round them and kill them. If anything, of all the ethnic elements that had been included within Yugoslavia's artificial borders, we were the ones who had suffered the most prior to the war outbreak. I mean, what did the Croats really suffer in comparison? The assasination of their deputy, Stjepan Radic? To this I might add a systematic dispossesion of Albanians from their lands, their forced withdrawal to Albania or Turkey and mass killings; during the occupation 1912, some 25,000-30,000 Albanians were killed by Serbs and Montenegrins in the Kosova Vilayet alone.
Despite this, the Kosovar Albanians did not go on a killing rampage against the Serbs; instead, those colonists whose property were the result of the state confiscating Albanian owned land, were rightfully expelled without much bloodshed. If anything, mass killings, though never justified, would have been logically more expected in Kosova than say Croatia or Bosnia. But whether you choose to cite the highly inflated numbers of pseudo-historical Serbian documents or the more moderate calculations of more serious historians (be they Serbian or non Serbian), Kosova is the region with the smallest figure of killed Serbs.
Thus, in the book 'Sporna knjiga mrtvih' (The Contested Book of the Dead), the Yugoslav historians Zeljko Kruselj & Djuro Zagorac write that more than 4,000 Serbs & Montenegrins died in Kosova throughout World War II, as a result of many things. Also, they weren't all killed by Albanians; many were killed by Germans & Italians, and most of them probably in combat, and essentially all of them males. Compare this to 97,728 killed in SERBIA itself !!! Subtract the thousands of Jews who were probably included in that figure, and you'll still have a majority of killed Serbs; far more killed of their kin in their own territory than in Kosova, let alone in Croatia and Bosnia where supposedly over 100,000 Serbs died.
The Serbian scholar Bogoljub Kocovic estimated that some 1,014,000 Yugoslav citizens had died during World War Two. Personally, I believe this number to be grossly inflated. But we will use it nevertheless, because it is a Serb who confirms my very point. Of these killed, some 487,000 were Serbs and 207,000 Croats. Of the Serbs, Kocovic continues, some 125,000 were killed in Croatia, 209,000 in Bosnia & Herzegovina and 147,000 in Serbia. Compare this to the meagre 4,000 Serbs and Montenegrins killed in Kosova, and you will see the enormous difference. And as I said, if anywhere, mass killings of Serbs was to be expected in Kosova where the harshest discrimination policy had been applied by Serbian nationalists. Kocovic mentions also that in comparison, some 6,000 Albanians died in Kosova. Summon these, and it turns out that the least amount of unnecessary bloodshed occured in Kosova. So much for 'wild Kosovar Albanians having no besa'.
Finally we also have the Croatian author Zerjavic. He estimated some 3,000 Serbian casualties in Kosova and 18,000 killed Albanians. Still nothing to 164,000 killed Serbs in Bosnia and 131,000 Serbs in Croatia.
source: 'Serba's Secret' War by Philip J. Cohen.
But even in Croatia and Bosnia, a majority of Serbs weren't killed as defenceless lambs in concentration camps as the latter try to claim. Many were killed in combat, and Serbs too committed horrendeous atrocities, especially against Bosnian Muslims in for instance Foca (where Chetnik commander Pavle Djurisic was in charge) and Croats in Dalmatia and Western Bosnia (where the cleric and warlord Momcilo Djujic, a Nazi sympathizer, tormented the local Catholic civilians). The main point, however, is that if Albanians of Kosova had lacked besa, if anything, they would not have been so forgiving of their main menace. Yet they were. They spared their fury to the clashes with Chetnik raiders who made attempts of gaining ground in Kosova (unsuccessfully so). The Kosovar Albanians under Shaban Polluzha did also (heroically so) defend the defencless populace of Sanjak, where local Bosniaks were being slaughtered indiscriminately by Serbian Chetniks.
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