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Post by albaniansoul on Nov 21, 2007 11:32:46 GMT -5
"Yes, I have been to Greece several times and not much Greeks look like that. Greeks are thought as Homogeneous to the area un like Albanians... Also please do not confuse the word Oriental i mean Anatolian. "
Yehyeh whatever.., doesnt matter, the greeks you've seen in your "australia" aint as the ones in Greece, i've been there. You're pure negros.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 21, 2007 11:56:00 GMT -5
This is trully ironic seeing a Greek calling us Albanians "short and darkskinned", when these two very characteristics as well as baldness is stereotypically associated with Greeks. No wonder this gitano lives in Australia; probably never even been to the Balkans, let alone seen an Albanian. Such a myth exists among all Balkan peoples more or less. For instance, you Greeks are frantically obsessed (and have been so ever since Fallmerayer presented his theories) with prooving your racial/genetic continuity from the Ancient Greeks, trying to downplay the role other racial/ethnic elements have played in the formation of the modern Greek nation. Constantine Porphyrogenitus, for instance, mentioned that much of Greece was overrun by Slavs. Many travellers of the 18th & 19th centuries mentioned that a majority of peasants in Attica & Beotia, as well as islands (such as Hydra, Andros, Spetsias, much of Euboea etc) were Albanian, or 'Arvanites'. Greece, if anything, has been even more of a melting pot of various cultures and racial elements than Albania. Carleton S. Coon was an anthropologist, not a linguist. It cannot be contested that the Albanian language contains loan words from foreign languages (though oftenly, these loan words have their indigenous synonyms as well). That's something most, if any, languages in the world cannot escape. However, if our language was a "hybrid" as Coon states, wouldn't it be a considered as some sort of Creole language? It isn't. Instead, it enjoys its own branch in the family tree of Indoeuropean languages, not much unlike Greek & Armenian. What Ardian Vehbiu an Albanian has to say[/img] Vehbiu, like some other Albanians, like to make a carreer of flirting with foreigners by being over critical towards our own history. No doubt there are certain mysteries concerning our origins. One thing, however, isn't contested; that Albanian is a pre-Roman and pre-Slav Balkan language. As such, it can only descend from either Greek (out of question), Illyrian (most scholars, whether domestic or international, agree upon this "myth") or Thraco-Dacian (this theory enjoys most support among Romanians and Serbs for political reasons). In either case, we are autochtonous. I have Noel Malcolm's book "Kosovo: A Short History". Nowhere does that sentence crop up. Would you care to explain where you got it from? Any link/source? It seems to go against what he says in the above mentioned book, where he writes: " The language of the Bessi must eventually have perished. Since the Bessi were the only Thracian tribe known to have kept their language as late as the sixth century (and Byzantine sources are naturally more detailed on the Thracian areas, which for them were closer to home, than on the Illyrian ones), it is impossible to find any other Thracian candidates. The origins of the Albanians must be sought, therefore, on the Illyrian side of the divide - particularly in the mountains round Kosovo, in the Malesi, and in the tangle of mountains stretching north from there through Montenegro." Noel Malcolm, "Kosovo: A Short History" -- chapter can be found in following adress: [ftp]http://www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html[/ftp] This is funny. Let me make some comments. 1) John Wilkes is no anthropologist! 2) Height is not a good indicator of race. Height changes. For instance, to take the Swedes who's continuity in Scandinavia since the Viking age is not questioned. Average height for Vikings was 171cm. During the 15th & 16th centuries, when Sweden was a local power or small 'empire', Swedish recruits (karoliner) measured 163cm in average. Nowadays, a typical Swede is 181cm. Likewise, one and a half century ago, the Dutch were among the shortest people in Europe; one quarter of Dutch applicants were rejected by the army for being less than 160cm. Now, they're the tallest in Europe with an average mean of 183-185cm, pointing out the cruciality of nutrition in height changes through the corse of history. 3) I don't quite grasp what Wilkes (and you) try to state in the above quote; that Illyrians measured 165cm in average and that consequently, they were 'too tall' for us Albanians to have been their descendants? As long as Albanians have been measured by competent anthropologists, they've never fallen under 165cm. Ancient sources describe the Illyrians as 'tall', even though they probably (out of nutritional factors) would have been considered short today by most standards. Likewise, Carleton Coon, a real anthropologist, has this to say about the Albanians: " In mean stature, we find the tallest people in Scotland, Iceland, Scandinavia, the eastern Baltic region, and the Balkans, particularly Montenegro and Albania. In general, the crest of tallest stature runs on the cold side of the winter frost line." Carleton S. Coon -- 3) To speak of 'racial continuity', one assumes that the Illyrians were homogenous racially. That is preposterous. Skeletal findings have shown that the Illyrians were a composition of various races, including Nordic, Dinaric & Alpine, all of which are present among Albanians (well, the Nordics have been altered into Norics, which is a blonde version of the Dinaric phenotype). The 'short and darkskinned' type, phenotypically Alpine, of which Wilkes speaks, is present among Albanians, but is in the minority. It was also found among Illyrians. But it is strongest in the south, or to be precise, among Hellenes. 4) When Wilkes writes "dark skinned", he again goes against what professional anthropologists have stated concerning the Albanians. Casual observation by an amateur isn't a qualified reference. When studying skin tone, anthropologists always observed the skin unexposed to the sun, such as armpits (you can be brown in the face from working the land or guarding cattle, but you're not 'brown', you're tanned). This is what Coon had to say: Carleton S. Coon: "The Races of Europe"*Note: Ghegs are northern Albanians (the results of other Albanians have shown the same pattern). This means almost all (92 per cent, to be precise), of the Albanians professionally studied by Coon, perhaps the most acknowledged anthropologist in history, were either milkish white or rosy white, i.e. #7 & 3 respectively. Compare that to Greeks; " The Greeks are as tall as most South Germans or northern Frenchmen; their stature is too elevated for the prevalence, in partial brachycephalization, of a strong, small Mediterranean strain. About half of them have brunet-white or light brown skin color, the rest the usual pinkish-white of central and northern Europe" Carleton S. Coon: "The Races of Europe"Half of the Greeks have thus barely white skin, or light brown if you prefer. Compare that to less than ten per cent among Albanians. Conclusively, I'd like to quote a great scholar renowned in studying the Illyrians; the Croatian Aleksandar Stipcevi; "Nevertheless, the number of researchers still today refusing to take into consideration the many arguments supplied by different academic disciplines has shrunk, or, more accurately, absolutely the only researchers who deny the theory of Albanian autochthony are Serbian." [ftp]http://www.illyrians.org/shouldweignore.html[/ftp] I must admit, however, that Stipcevic is wrong. Serbs aren't the only ones denying us our Illyrian ancestry. PMS affected little Greek girls nicknamed Greek1234 are right there as well, and that we must give you; the ability of spweing BS under a bogus motive, to allegedly expose and liberate us from our myths (when Greeks are just as badly affected by them). Kind regards little man (this last comment has a double meaning).
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 21, 2007 12:15:53 GMT -5
And this because you 'say so'. You're pathetic and probably suffering from a complex of being phenotypically middle-eastern looking. I don't find anything problematic with that, other than that you might be discriminated against in airports. But you obviously do, and it will not help you to project your perceived flaws on other nations (falsely so) to feel 'better'. Instead, if you wish to seek the truth', listen to what anthropologists say.
When Carleton S. Coon studied the Albanians (he wrote a book concerning that called 'Mountain of Giants' -- I did not know 'Gypsies' were giants in stature) he had this to say;
"Almost all of the Ghegs are light-skinned, with the von Luschan #3 and 7 most frequently represented. Freckling, common in Montenegro, is rare here; what little there is is confined almost entirely to the tribes nearest Old Montenegro, and here it reaches but 5 per cent. The head hair is usually brunet, with black or near black reaching 40 per cent, and dark to medium brown 45 per cent. Light brown or blond hair, which is almost always on the golden or slightly rufous side, accounts for the other 15 per cent. Only two men out of 1100 were found to have ash-blond hair. As in Montenegro, the beards are much lighter than the head hair; the black contingent is reduced to 6 per cent, while 36 per cent are reddish brown or auburn, 3 per cent red, and 30 per cent golden blond or light brown with a golden tinge.
Seventeen per cent of Ghegs have pure brown eyes, and 7 per cent pure light ones. Half the group has green-brown iris combinations and 20 per cent blue-brown. Of the mixed eyes, 30 per cent are dark-mixed, and 48 per cent predominantly light, the rest nearly even. The Ghegs are, therefore, thoroughly mixed, or almost completely intermediate, in eye color, with the blond element or elements slightly more important than the brunet."
"Races of Europe"
Compare this to what he concluded on the Greeks:
"The Greeks are as tall as most South Germans or northern Frenchmen; their stature is too elevated for the prevalence, in partial brachycephalization, of a strong, small Mediterranean strain. About half of them have brunet-white or light brown skin color, the rest the usual pinkish-white of central and northern Europe; over 80 per cent have dark brown hair, the rest have hair evenly divided between black and the lighter shades of brown. Pronounced blondism, although rare, is not unknown. The beard is rarely lighter than the head hair, in contrast to the condition found among Ghegs and Montenegrins; the implication is that the dark brown hair of the majority of Greeks is a pure brunet condition. Over 65 pa-cent of Greeks have pure brown eyes, and most of these are dark brown: pure lights are sporadic, but there is a 15 per cent incidence of light-mixed iris forms. "
"Races of Europe"
While Greeks are typically European in skintone in 1/2 of the cases, Albanians are so in over 90 per cent of the cases. Greek blondism is rare and not even cited in percentage, while Albanians are blonde or light brown in 15 per cent of the cases. Light eyes among Greeks is in the clear minority, while Albanians have very mixed eyes, with the blonde element being a little more dominant. Even your own compatriot, Canaris, noted a prevailing blondness among the Albanian immigrants in Chios.
Conclusively, you calling us 'Oriental' is very hypocritical and stupid and just a foolish way to try to boost your own national confidence. Being dark & oriental isn't wrong; accept yourself. There are many pseudo-scholars out there, much like yourself, who twist information and take quotes out of their context to suit a certain political agenda. Many of them use your methods to deny you Greeks your ancient Greek legacy and continuity, saying your ancestors were originally Nordic, and that your current state is a result of continuous mixing with Orientals and even Negroes. If you want, I might play your game even though i don't believe in it. So fvck off before it's too late gitano.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Nov 21, 2007 19:03:13 GMT -5
"I believe Albanians are a Turkish colony in the sense that they where brought in by the Turks. During this period they stole Greek and native Slavic land. "
what did you say Ahristos ?
................................
see ....this is the old proverbs of the serbian/greek alliance of 1912 speaking their BS
simple as that..
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Post by greek1234 on Nov 21, 2007 22:58:30 GMT -5
Nice try Donnie but we are not complete bastards like the Albanians. We have the genetic and physical evidence to back it up. We dont even know were your language derives from let alone know who you are and were you came from. Everyone knows the Fallmerayer and the rest of the Nazi's are full of lies. Every Greek, Serb and quelified Anthropologists knows that Albanian's are a foreign element in the Balkans.
Asiatic/ Albanian Dinarics are different from the Greek and Yugoslav Dinaric types
"The Asiatic types below are uncommon morphologic re-emergences resulting from random genetic re-combinations that govern all organisms. They do not seem to have any selective value. What makes these particular random re-combinations so interesting is that the morphologic type in question is more common outside of Europe. This is interesting for a European population, such as the Albanians.
The common Dinaricism of the Albanians (as opposed to the “Extreme” Dinaricism of the Old-Montenegrin Serbs or the common Dinaricism of other European populations) - is obviously Asiatic, rather than European. This can be observed by comparing Albanian Dinaric sub-types with Asiatic & European Dinaric sub-types.
Serbs, Greeks and Italians are familiar with what is typically called “the Albanian face”. Although the term itself is not specific at all and certainly not scientific, it denotes a generally un-European facial architecture that is observable to others, including Albanians themselves, although Albanians would never admit or might not even be conscious of how un-European some Albanians look."
The Albanian language and culture, including the shqipetar, dardan & dalmat ethnonyms are not European, nor are they Illyrian in origin either, as we shall see below. Although the Dardanians were not originally Illyrians, they ARE the ancestors of many living Albanians & the culture-bearing population that brought Albanian culture, Albanian language & Albanian ethno-tribal identity to the Balkans.
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Post by Duke John on Nov 22, 2007 0:05:17 GMT -5
Nice try Donnie but we are not complete bastards like the Albanians. We have the genetic and physical evidence to back it up. We dont even know were your language derives from let alone know who you are and were you came from. Everyone knows the Fallmerayer and the rest of the Nazi's are full of lies. Every Greek, Serb and quelified Anthropologists knows that Albanian's are a foreign element in the Balkans. Asiatic/ Albanian Dinarics are different from the Greek and Yugoslav Dinaric types"The Asiatic types below are uncommon morphologic re-emergences resulting from random genetic re-combinations that govern all organisms. They do not seem to have any selective value. What makes these particular random re-combinations so interesting is that the morphologic type in question is more common outside of Europe. This is interesting for a European population, such as the Albanians. The common Dinaricism of the Albanians (as opposed to the “Extreme” Dinaricism of the Old-Montenegrin Serbs or the common Dinaricism of other European populations) - is obviously Asiatic, rather than European. This can be observed by comparing Albanian Dinaric sub-types with Asiatic & European Dinaric sub-types. Serbs, Greeks and Italians are familiar with what is typically called “the Albanian face”. Although the term itself is not specific at all and certainly not scientific, it denotes a generally un-European facial architecture that is observable to others, including Albanians themselves, although Albanians would never admit or might not even be conscious of how un-European some Albanians look." The Albanian language and culture, including the shqipetar, dardan & dalmat ethnonyms are not European, nor are they Illyrian in origin either, as we shall see below. Although the Dardanians were not originally Illyrians, they ARE the ancestors of many living Albanians & the culture-bearing population that brought Albanian culture, Albanian language & Albanian ethno-tribal identity to the Balkans. i will add the link of your proofs and sources www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/ ;D you are a JOKE! lol someone close this clowns thread!.
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Post by albaniansoul on Nov 22, 2007 0:56:01 GMT -5
LOL, so all he did was copy+paste from HD's site? Pathetic.. Really
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Post by Duke John on Nov 22, 2007 1:19:54 GMT -5
You hurted your self! Truth lmao.... Amater.
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Post by greek1234 on Nov 22, 2007 1:21:01 GMT -5
You know Albanians are not homogeneous in the Balkans accept the truth...
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Post by Duke John on Nov 22, 2007 1:23:08 GMT -5
You know Albanians are not homogeneous in the Balkans accept the truth... Yep! we dont have Homo Genes!
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 22, 2007 6:35:42 GMT -5
You guys wanna cut this I am whiter than you stuff out.... it doesnt' make any sense and it's childish.
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alpg
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Post by alpg on Nov 22, 2007 11:58:04 GMT -5
Well, i was looking for myths regarding the balkans, and i ran on this site First of all, hello everyone (mirmbrema te gjithve). I must say that myths are created , were 2 groups of nationalities, have almost the same cultural backround (tradition/music/behaviour) and ofcourse they live in the same area As for the race matter, it is very difficult to speak about as nation, man, can never missunderstand the meaning of race with nation or even worse, state. Balkan is a mix, a big one. There is no pure race. take foe example the turks, who are they? a big mix, albanians, sllavs,greeks and kurds,arabs and so on. Greece, a mix of arvanitas, sllav,latin (ionian side), armenians (kreta) and so on Albania is almost the same, you have bosnians, greeks, vllahs, sllavs and ofcourse a lot more with not certain origin (leftovers, landowners from ottoman empire). If any body reads a book from Hamdi Bushati , which speaks about the foreing origin of many families from the city of Shkoder, i think it is called “Familjet shkodrane me prejardhje te huej!”, then you will see what i mean. peace
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2007 13:49:10 GMT -5
Oh look, Suart is back....
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alpg
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Post by alpg on Nov 22, 2007 15:16:24 GMT -5
Toskaliku711, what do you mean ?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 22, 2007 16:02:16 GMT -5
Greek1234
Why didn't you cite your source? That's right; because it's written by a SERB from these forums who isn't an anthropologist, namely Highduke. Nice try though. You're pathetic. Just buzz off and expose some of your own myths, such as the one you seem to be believing in, namely that Greeks look Central or Northern European and that they're easily distinguishable from a crowd of middle easterners.
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Post by greek1234 on Nov 22, 2007 16:43:21 GMT -5
I never stated that. Greeks are a Mediterranean, Alpine and Dinaric dominated people. (They look nothing like North Europeans or Middle Easterners) I only stated you have no connection to the Illyrians who looked more like Serbs. Get your facts straight before you speak about me and do not try change my beliefs around.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 22, 2007 18:01:51 GMT -5
Who can give me Albanian's origin? (Sources too such antique historians!) If not, why not accepting the autoctonous of Albanians?!
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 22, 2007 19:09:56 GMT -5
The Dinaric strain is minimal in Greece. The two major elements are Eastern Mediterranean & Alpine. The former is characterized by swarthy skin, black hair (oftenly curly) and short to medium stature. The latter is also short, but of more robust proportions, shortheaded and also, usually, of dark pigmentation. And the Noric element is minimal, as shown by Coon who states that only an insignificiant minority of Greeks show blonde traits in eye and hair color. Their purely brunet origin is evident in the fact that beards too usualy come out dark, whereas among Albanians and Montenegrins, for instance, the black contingent is reduced to a small minority.
Of course. I mean I forgot you're 2,000 yrs old, that you've documented Illyrian speech and studied their racial phenotype to come to such conclusions.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Nov 23, 2007 3:21:41 GMT -5
c
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Nov 23, 2007 3:22:08 GMT -5
LMAO ...greek1234 made article from member of this forum hajduke that claim too just north greeks are serbs and others greeks are arabo-semitic greko gypsies where is your funny link? all those that you postet are fake because that words are from hajduke (not vehbiu or malclom)...please semitic boy can you post your links? ?
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