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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 18, 2007 20:11:23 GMT -5
Look at the last part about crucifixions...
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viktor1
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Post by viktor1 on Nov 19, 2007 2:13:21 GMT -5
they wan't war...come and get it
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 19, 2007 6:40:21 GMT -5
Mohammed Albanians..... no Christians were hurt in this exercise.1914 were trying times... boundaries were being redrawn ,revenge was on everyones minds...chit happened.
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Post by suart on Nov 19, 2007 7:07:18 GMT -5
Look at the last part about crucifixions... Let us be honest and think. Those massacres did happen in Albania but, not from the greeks; they were committed but the albanian greeks. As for inside Greece, we should not play the victim, the chams too committed great crimes! We were never taught at school about the crimes that occurred during the autonomous Epirus, why? It was the albanians orthodox against the moslem population who committed the crimes and not the greeks. In either way we can not blame the greeks, the orthodox population, felt and feels they are greeks, but we can not blame the mainland for it. It is as if Albania has to be blamed for the crimes of the kosovars commited in 2002, during the destruction of the serbian heritage. Let us not forget, whom do we have to blame for the crimes of the catholic albanians committed in the north of the country?, The Christian rep of Mirdita, the siege of Scutary by the monte negrins with the catholic albanians led by Dedgjoluli? On both cases, the albanian christians felt afraid from the molsem majority and encouraged byt the west, especially Italy and france. It is the same nowdays. Ex Kosovo. Any country should find the problem within its borders not blame the neighbor, is as if Turkey should blame Irak for the kurdish problem when, for fact we know that the kurds go back.... During those years, the worse scenario and crimes were committed in the north, 6 months-the siege of Scutary, 6 months the catholics ravaged the moslem villages, from Kraja up north of Albania to Tuz, till south to Milot; what were we taught nothing! All the history is not remembered, all the historians kept silence, and, the criminals became heroes (dedgjoluli, gjon marka gjoni) what an irony.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 19, 2007 11:07:02 GMT -5
"revenge" was on the mind of the vicious people who were intent on wiping out everything that didnt suit their own nationalistic views: Greeks and Serbs. Please find me contemporary evidence of Albs doing things like this.
What a generalization it is to say that "revenge was on everyones mind". What did those Alb families do to deserve this "revenge"? Btw, this article also says that Greeks burned down an Albanian church.
As per your, Suart, dont divert the topic without your own biased and confused notion of "history".
In fact, I ask one of the mods to edit out his post so we can actually have a proper convo without this Islamic rat infesting it.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 19, 2007 11:31:46 GMT -5
What does this even mean? Wrong topic. Yes, names such as Themistokli Germenji sound really Moslem. What's worse than the marxist indoctrination is your Islamistic fundamentalism which enables you only to see religious colors. Did some Orthodox Albanians assist the Greeks in their endeavour of creating a Greek Northern Epirus through massacres and expulsions?`Perhaps. But being that Orthodox Albanians were and are so numerous in Southern Albania, I'm sure that if they had been such vivid collaborators, Northern Epirus would have been Greek. But it is not. Your attempts of re-writing history without any source whatsoever are preposterous. Which "Kosovars"? Kosovar is a geographic designation. Serbs from Kosova are Kosovars as well, as are Bosniaks, Turks, Circassians etc. The republic of Mirdita was the result of your beloved Serbs buying that region's aristocratic leaders and using them as a puppet for their goals. The Mirditors were oblivious of what was going on in reality. You have your Moslem equivalents of Bib Doda too, such as Esat pasha Toptani. Remember him? Or what about Haxhi Qamili, who wished to return Albania into an Ottoman province. "E duam baben mbret" -- remember that slogan? Rotten apples exist in every corners and layers of society. And the assistance of the Montenegrins by the highlanders of the north wasn't done for unpatriotic reasons, but because the malsors were lured by Prince Nikola that he was fighting for them. If they wanted to be shkije like you, they would not have fought in the bridge of Rzhanica, would they? Only the religious freaks. The same goes the other way. Muslim radicals also feel threatened by Christian presence. Fortunately, most Albanians were indifferent to the propaganda spread by the clergy segment which was malicious and ill intended in its actions. What the fvck are you talking about? Our Catholic brothers in Kosova fought in the UCK. Just like the Moslems. Look dufous; Greek troops invaded ethnic Albanian territories 1912. Despite the decision of the London Conference to acknowledge the borders of contemporary Albania in the year of 1913, Greek troops disobeyed International appeals for Greek withdrawal. It was an act of agression against a sovereign state, associated with deliberate attacks against the civilian populace, not just the Moslem faction. It was very much an issue which one could blame on Greece and the so called Megali Idea, the supporters of which wouldn't accept the creation of an independent Albanian state .... or at the very least, the inclusion of what they described as Northern Epirus into that state. In other words, the Greeks wanted every land all the way up to the Shkumbin river. I'm sure you would have liked that. Nope; it was your brothers, the Serbs. And it was a Moslem, Esat pasha, who betrayed the defence and gave the city to Nikola. The combined Serb-Montenegrin forces did not settle with ravaging the terirtories around Shkodra. Crimes were committed everywhere, since Serbs wanted to annexe Northern and Central Albania and gain access to the sea. Leo Freundlich in his "Gathering Clouds" goes through this in his work; "A Red Cross doctor told me with horror that the prisoners and injured patients one encountered in Nish and Belgrade were only there for show. "The Serbs," he added, "know no mercy. All Albanians caught, whether armed or not, are butchered on the spot."" Fazil Toptani, to whom we we showed this report for confirmation, stated: Everything written in this report is true. These facts are but a small portion of the outrages committed in our country by these barbarians. They flooded into Albania slaughtering, looting and burning, and have caused more destruction than anyone could possible imagined.
Dervish Hima told us: Tell the public that a good proportion of the Albanian is on the verge of starvation. Spring has come, the time to sow the land, and the Serbs have stolen all the seed. Even if the Albanians had seed, they would not sow it, for they now have a saying: 'Even if something manages to grow, the Serbs will destroy it.' Such is the fear of the Serbs among our people." But of course, we're only to blame ourselves for this ordeal inflicted on us by the Serbs, right Suart? Traitors, such as you if you're Albanian (which I doubt), act out of self interest. They are rotten people, the scum of the earth worthy of more contempt than an enemy. They do not act out of religious beliefs, unless those religious beliefs are distorted into fitting some political ideology. There were both Christian and Moslem traitors. But the majority of Albanians, be they Christian or Moslem, fought all Albania's enemies, they too being both Christians and Moslems. Remember the lines of Pashko Vasa
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 19, 2007 11:41:30 GMT -5
As for you Canaris; that was a new low from you. What possible thing could the Albanians have done for innocent families to deserve the treatment they got by Greek units operating in Southern Albania at the time?
Greek crimes weren't restricted to Moslem Albanians by the way. Crimes were also committed against Christian Albanians, who also opposed your intrusion. Many patriots fighting the Greeks in the south were thus Orthodox, such as the above mentioned Themistokli Germenji, Spiro Belkameni and others.
Whatever the Albanians did, they did not do things like these, as Toskaliku mentioned. For if it was something we were renowned for, it was the chivalry which prevented rape & murder of women and children. But such restrictions weren't known to your men. NOTHING can justify this. The fact that you try just lowered you significiantly in my eyes, and in the eyes of anyone who is healthy in the head,
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Post by greek1234 on Nov 19, 2007 11:49:29 GMT -5
What a joke. You people are not Chivalrous you kill Christians and burn churches up to this day. Stop playing the innocent your nation is the part of the crime wave in Europe which includes prostitution, drug trafficking and illegal smuggling of people. You disgust me. In my eyes and in the eyes of the West you need to really change big time.
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Post by suart on Nov 19, 2007 12:32:37 GMT -5
Melyt, I want to explain you shortly: Those years, were the years of an internal conflict, as Albania won the independece and the Turkish Empire fell, or more clear, crimes weere committed on the north too, not only in the south. As for edition, I know over here you like to surpress the free speach and not liking the truth. . From Donnie: Go back and read it than you will understand. So, do not let us tell our story? Or more clear, you write and we should not answer or say smth connected to the fact. So the best is to ignore all your crowd. What you write and ask, you answer it in the next statement. Without any source..... Sure you in Kosovo do not know\ anything, all you studied was about the Yugoslav republics. At the end, your bunch just throws the stones on the neighbors, blame them for what the albanian creed were and are. For kosovo 2002, I do not care, as all we are aware of, the serb population knows that there is no connection between albs and kosovars, in those demolitions. I am done with this topic and my comments, are things to surf, honest, it is wasting time with a bunch of people whom do not have a clue about their countries history. Me with Islamic view.... those years the religions shaped the nation identity. The only thing you are good at, is copy and paste, it is good to see how the other react.... with your posts, cool and straight. Melyt and Donnie, you never learn. All you do is deny, edit. Deny it with lies, pathetic people.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 19, 2007 12:57:18 GMT -5
You guys cannot be that naive.... this is hate building up from the time Ali Pasha was in power.... like I said they were trying times...things got out of hand.... and Suart is right..most of these things were committed by Arvanites... trying to get back at Mohammedes who for the last 450 years turned their backs at Scanderbeg and butchered thousands of Albanians.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 19, 2007 13:06:19 GMT -5
Sme could have been "arvanities", because they were Greek soldiers. Irregular troops who acted outside of their orders with the backing of the Greek state. Enuff "they were this they were that". Suart is not right, Suart is never right. He doesnt have a clue outside of his twisted Islamist view of things.
Those soldiers were Greek soldiers, even those among them who may have carried names like Gikkas or Kryeziu. They were Greek nationals. No evidence of them being a specific subethnic group.
Your a sick man... a sick sick man. But I understand, its not just you, its your whole ethnicity and bretheren(the Serbs). This is how you guys still think. You excuse your barbarism by your twisted perception of history...
Worse yet, it wasnt even done fairly. It wasnt done against soldiers, but civilians (mothers, children and unarmed men)...
Without Ali Pasha there would have never even been a war of independence. The man did more fighting to aid you people then your national heroes could have ever hoped to do. he pinned Ottoman forces for decades, he even harbored your nationals and entered into your societies to back your independence.
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Post by greekslav on Nov 19, 2007 13:29:27 GMT -5
What is up with posting something that happened 93 years ago? I think it was posted as a troll againest Greeks. It would be relevant if only the Greeks did these things back in those days. Truth is, all Balkanites back then had their hands in atrocities.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 19, 2007 13:53:42 GMT -5
I was speaking of past times you illiterate moron. Chivalry is trully dead, and that's something that's true everywhere. What you speak of is unrelated to the topic and an issue of modern times; it does not belong to the historical context we're debating. Canaris said 'revenge'. Revenge for what? Albanians were known to be chivalrous, and this is something which was testified by numerous travellers who acquainted the Albanians.
As for what you're speaking of; crimes transcend national borders, be it human trafficking or anything related. It is not 'national culture'. Criminal Albanians of today are the result of the same factors as elsewhere; social factors, such as a poor economy in combination with a troublesome transition from a communist dictatorship to a democracy with market economy. -------------------------------------------------------------
'We' in Kosova? Depends. If you are referring to Serbs from Kosova, yes they mostly read about Yugoslav/Serbian history. But we Albanians learned both our own, Albanian history, and Yugoslav history. Now after the fall of communism in both Albania and SFRY, information is easily available and attainable across borders. We're not living in the Cold War anymore. Information is easily accessible, hence your 'argument' is invalid.
Let me get this straight. What happened to the Albanians in 1912-13 at the hands of Serbs & Greeks, is OUR fault? Albanians = bad, Albania's neighbours = flawless. Is that your point? Just want you to clarify everything.
What "Kosovars"? That could just as well mean Kosovar Serbs demolished their own churches.
I hope you do hold yourself to your word Suart. That you leave this forum. Because your BS is really annoying. Your religiously fundamentalist views are at home only in Saudi Arabia or Iran -- depending on whether you're a Shi'a or Wahhabist. In either case, you're a leach, a parasite, a man with only one intention; instigation and trying to pass himself as an Albanian, when he is a Muslim Slav. ------------------------------------------
Canaris
If such is trully the case, then the craving for "revenge" was something artificially created. How come? Ali pasha was never fighting for a religious cause. Hence, anything he did, was for political purposes. Coloring his activities and his opponents' activities in religious colors is a mistake done either as a result of intentional distortion of history, or simple misinformation. Let me illustrate what I mean. Remember the battle of Suli? It is often depicted as a war between Turks & Greeks, Moslems & Christians. It is very far away from the truth. Firstly, it was a conflict between Albanians, not Greeks and Turks (unless you count the Arvanites as 'Greeks', which is a mistake, since at the time they were yet to identify with a Hellenic national consciousness); Ali pasha on one side, and the Albanophone Suliotes on the other.
Secondly, the conflict wasn't religious, since there were Christians fighting on Ali pasha's side too. They were Albanians from Albania and Greece, or "Arvanites" if you prefer. Let me mention some of them; Odisea Andruco (Odysseas Androutsos), Karaiskaqi (Karaiskakis), Varnacioti (?), Athanas Dhiako (Atanassios Diakos), Gura, Griva, Gardhicioti, Vangjel Zapa, Bakola and other "Moslem Turks".
It was a conflict of interests. The Suliotes' lifestyle did not coincide with Ali pasha's desire to establish a monarchy where the subjects would obey the laws. He wanted to subdue them, and the Suliotes did not want to compromise with their ways. If revisionist historians and advocates of Megali Idea portrayed the whole event differently, then the craving for "revenge" was something artificially created by you, and this makes you, or better put your ancestors, even more at fault. Your fault lies in trying to justify such actions.
Pfft. The Arvanites did not give a rat's a*ss about such things. Mind you, up until the mid-19th century, the Arvanites were culturally very akin to their Albanian counterpart in Albania proper. Meaning; they were descendants of primarily pastoral people, divided into clans (fis or fara), where the main authorities were the heads of the clans ... usually a group of elderlies and elected chieftains, or military captains. Whatever such captains and elderlies deemed favorable in terms of religion, was also the confession most of their kinsmen converted to. Thus, the Arvanites belonging to the Bardhuniote clan or those who were Laliotes, were Muslims. Yes; Arvanite Muslims.
Theodor Kolokotroni was a vllam (adoptive brother) with the Muslim Ali Farmaki, an Arvanites from Peloponessus. The Muslim and Orthodox Arvanites did not let religious differences disable them from cooperating. This whole concept of an inherited contempt for Moslems, whom they dremt of taking "revenge" on, is a modern historical distortion that doesn't take into account the unique approach to religion which Albanians took. The revolution of '21 didn't initially have the religious character it later acquired. While the main bulk of the rebels were Arvanites, they weren't all Orthodox. The Moslems also answered the call for rebellion, and so the "National Alliance" was created. But the Orthodox Clergy wasn't interested in such alliances, and soon the trust was betrayed. "Turkish" Moslems were defeated, expelled or forcefully baptized. In such circumstances, many of them turned against the rebellion, understandably and rightfully so.
One of them was Ago Vashari. This man stopped some Turks who wished to mutilate the dead body of Marko Bocari. The thanks for this gesture? Greek rebels captured Vashari and slaughtered him right by Bocari's grave.
If Arvanites were filled by a hatred for Moslems, they were so because they were indoctrinated by religious extremists who saw the terms Hellenes and Christian as synonymous. And so, someone who spoke Greek and identified as Greek but was Moslem, was rejected ... while an Asiatic man of Orthodox confession was embraced.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 19, 2007 15:20:47 GMT -5
WTF are you blabbering about.... put the cap back on the glue bottle....
This was turn of the century Greece.... the Greeks have been fighting for their homeland for that last 500 years... atrocities were done unto them by these Mohammeds for so long.... Muslim Albanians were the primary source of henchmen for the Ottomans...everyone and his grandmother is fully aware of that..when you needed some village wiped out you call them..they would really wipe it off the map.... now you and the the other young one...who is still wearing a diaper ...calls me a sick man.... ...
How many times I have heard the Ottomans recruited Albanians because they were so dedicated in what they did...how many times I have heard it from your own lips and others here.... when you guys felt like boasting... about Albanians in the Mafia and as henchmen in the Ottoman army? Oh now ...all of a sudden they are poor little helpless things that the evil Greek empire tried to get rid of..give me a break... you people have waved the victim card in one hand while carrying a sword hidden behind your backs in the other....
Oh yeah I nearly forgot Arvanites were Greek ..living for centuries in Albania ...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 19, 2007 15:41:10 GMT -5
'Wiped entire villages' -- this you say without references. Villages aren't comprised solely by men. Wiping out entire villages would imply the massacring of women and children. Yet I find that questionable. Even the enemies of the Albanians would acknowledge that such did not occur among us. The Serbs told Edith Durham that "no man is safe from Albanians, and no woman is safe from the Nizam (Turkish regulars)", meaning Albanians didn't touch women.
Albanians were indeed used as auxiliary. But in case you weren't aware of it, so were Greeks. In any case, Albanians fought more on the Greeks' side than opposed them. As I wrote earlier, in 1821, there was an alliance between Moslems and Christians. In Peloponessus, the vllam of Teodor Kolokotroni was the above mentioned Farmaki. He participated. From Albania came Muslims such as Ago Vashari, Tafil Buzi, Celo Myrto, Mustafa Qafzezi and others -- all praised for their bravery and exploits by none other than Ypsilantis. But the Phanariote led clergy weren't interested in alliances and shared governance with Moslems, and so Bardhunia (Vardounia) and other Moslem strongholds were attacked in a treacherous manner.
The picture isn't black and white as you try to depict it. This is clearly illustrated in the above example I gave you concerning Orthodox warriors fighting for Ali pasha. But I guess that isn't something you learn in Greek schools.
Proof?
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 19, 2007 16:39:11 GMT -5
GreekSlav, please bring me sources that show Albs crucifying Greeks or doing something on that level of barbarity. Can you? I can give you more sources of Greek brutality in the region, at a time when Albania itself had released its defenses in the region since we were hoping Greece would comply with international laws... but instead it fed irregular troops into the region to create havok among the unarmed civilians of the land. We had other things to deal with: Italians invading port cities and a genocidal Serbian army destroying the north.
I mention this so its not forgotten. Yea, we can move forward, but not without forgetting the past. Sad thing is, the responses of the Greeks show absolutely no remorse... something that they seem to share with the Slavic brethren...
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Post by greekslav on Nov 21, 2007 13:50:57 GMT -5
I agree with you, Toskaliku711. On all the forums that I have visited, many of the Greeks, Serbs and Macedonians have been by far wickedly nationalistic and fanatical. I really have not heard as much of the fanatical nationalism coming from Albanians, but I am not saying that it is absent by far.
But you must agree, some more than others, that all countries in the Balkans has had their hand in atrocities againest another people. Bringing up these atrocities, in my view, always causes a domino effect, one that results in two countries going at each other about the other doing the most killing. Remembering, yes, you are right. But bringing it up over and over again doesn't really help.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 22, 2007 6:39:40 GMT -5
Just because the Albanians that did atrocities against Greeks were masquerading as Turkish clones doesn't hide the fact that they still did what they did.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2007 13:47:49 GMT -5
Once again you have brought no proof but simply go by "you probably did do it also"... sorry, Canaris, but that doesnt work. Your simply trying to excuse the barbarism shown in those reports. Which is inexcusable.
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alpg
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Post by alpg on Nov 22, 2007 16:37:58 GMT -5
My father in low is from Korca (Koritsa-as the article refers), i asked him about what the article was about and the answer was that the city was never burned or destroyed from greeks (only eathquakes). As for the epirotan movement, it is not right to say that they were greeks in now days context, ofcourse there were greeks from Kreta but most of the participants were ethnic orthodox. Those days shows that religion had a very important role to play. Must say that 100 thousand muslims albanians were forced to move from their homes towards west Albania.
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