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Post by terroreign on Jan 29, 2008 10:27:36 GMT -5
Arumanians are basically like gypsys then...I guess donnie feels he's closest to the gyppos
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 29, 2008 13:16:04 GMT -5
Donnie, you're just upset because of Basescu's stand on the Kosovo issue and the way some of the Ro members have conducted themselves in this forum. When it comes to the latter, the behaviour was justified.
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Post by fannoli on Jan 30, 2008 0:42:40 GMT -5
Arumanians are basically like gypsys then...I guess donnie feels he's closest to the gyppos TerroReign. You are right in many ways. I used to think we were similar to Romanians too years ago but ive lost very much respect for that country and people after they are nosing in the business of Kosovo. Plus i think they are the least productive people in Europe and more prone to corruption than any other race-- just a personal observation. Usually one of the reasons why Albania has chitty a$$ politicians is because they come from this lineage of people. -------------- Romanian child-thief gangs busted in UK Police target child crime gangs The raids began before first light and into the morning A baby less than a year old was among 10 children taken into care after a police operation targeted gangs who used youngsters to pick pockets. Officers from several forces, including the Metropolitan Police, raided 17 addresses across Slough, Berkshire. At least 25 adults were held, accused of immigration breaches, deception, fraud, theft and pick-pocketing... More news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/7206476.stm--------------- Albs dont care about this Romanian brown nosing to Serbia. As after joining EU they are still miserable people and i guess they have sold what little they had left-- honor, by selling their children and whoring their wives for money to Western Europe.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 30, 2008 9:58:53 GMT -5
Donnie, you're just upset because of Basescu's stand on the Kosovo issue and the way some of the Ro members have conducted themselves in this forum. When it comes to the latter, the behaviour was justified. From your comment I take it that you disagree with Basescu's stance? If so, that is a good start. Other than that, you hit the nail I must admit. It is hard feeling a connection to a nation so sympathetic with the Serbian 'cause'. I am being frank here, and I believe I should be given credit on that account. But Basescu isn't where it all started. Romanian mercenaries aided the Serbs already in 1998-99 in the war of Kosova. Two Romanian UNMIK officers shot dead the two victim protesters of Vetëvendosje. For the Vlachs, however, there is still hope. As I said, I can feel a connection to them due to the long historical symbiosis we've shared. But also because I suspect they are not equally Serbophile as some Romanians of Romania proper seem to be.
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Post by c0gnate on Jan 30, 2008 10:16:04 GMT -5
The Romanian attitude towards Kosova is hardly a principled stand. It's driven by fears that an independent Kosova will encourage Magyar irredentism in Transylvania. The story is the same with Slovakia. Both countries have large Hungarian minorities which will certainly demand more rights, if not outright secession, the moment Kosova declares independence.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 30, 2008 10:34:10 GMT -5
Well, when we're dealing with politics it is far less personal. I reckon this is also why Greece isn't so fervent in defending the Serbs; they have no territory aspiring secession. And who would have suspected Montenegro & Macedonia to have our backs?
But from what I understand, the Romanians should not be so afraid of the whole Transsylvania case. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to me the Hungarians are relatively indifferent today to the issue of Vojvodina and Transsylvania joining Hungary ... especially if one compares their modern stance to the past. One example is Hungary's somewhat reluctance to join the majority of EU members in their common support for Kosova's independence. If anything, shouldn't they be supportive of it ... in order to be able to press the Serbs and Romanians for the expanding of righrs/privileges of the Hungarian minorities of Serbia and Romania?
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 30, 2008 11:32:44 GMT -5
Let us educate Donnie, Fannoli and other bigmouths who speak out against Romania. I will start by posting fragments from Tony Blair's speech in the Romanian Parliament, in 1999. Source: www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page1312.aspSo where to start? Fannoli, you say that Romania should not have nose their business in Kosovo, but Romania was involved in that business from the first day. If we hadn't given NATO the full support it needed, its operations would have gone slower, resulting in more Albanian civilian casualties. Serbia may not have succumbed to the NATO demands until much later. Bulgaria refused to allow NATO to use its airspace. Only Hungary and Romania did so and only these two countries were a key ally to NATO, due to their closeness of Belgrade. The cold fact is that Romanians and Serbs have been friends for centuries and our only conflict was sometime during the late 13th or early 14th century. It was a border skirmish and nothing serious. We will not stop to be their friends because of the crimes of a madman. I remember talking to a Serbian fellow, a couple of years after NATO's operation in Serbia. We talked about Romania's role in the conflict. I expected him to be bitter and accuse us of being traitors. Instead, he said that Serbs view Romanians as brothers and were a bit dissapointed in their aid to NATO. He further explained that the border to Romania was the least defensive area of their country, because the Serbs never had the strategy to build-up in that area, due to the good relationships between the countries. Serbia saw a friend in Romania, not a threat. Yet he, and many other Serbs, never looked down on us but understood the situation and Serbs and Romanians continue to be friends to this day. In 1999, Romania did not have a working economy. From 2001 onwards, our economy started to stabilize, but in 1999, things were very difficult for people. The economic sanctions against Serbia, combined with the destruction of infrastructure and the loss of export routes to the West via the Danube, hit our economy very hard. We're talking about billion of dollars in losses and this was during the Clinton era, when the dollar was strong. Whole communities were affected by these changes and many despaired. We got nothing in return. Romania committed itself to help out against the atrocities in Kosovo. We never committed ourselves to end our friendship with the Serbs or support the Albanian cause for independence. The first thing is a humanitarian issue and the other thing is a political issue. You can take it as you want to. The Serbs have proven themselves to be good friends to Romania, despite the harm that resulted from our aid to NATO. Romania wants to have good partners around the world and we are blessed to have found good friends in the EU, Turkey, and Greece. If Albanians will want to be good friends to Romania, we will be good friends to Albanians: but this friendship will not be conditional. If Albanians will want to distance themselves from Romania, then they can do that as well. We will continue to pursue what we think is in the best interest of our country and the European community. We will support Albania's entrance to the EU, in whatever way we can, because we believe that is the right thing to do. It is natural for Romanians to feel closer to the Serbia people. Apart from our good relations throughout the centuries, the Romanian perspective is that the conflict started when the UCK guerilla, later labeled as a terrorist group, started to attack Serbian forces on a hit-and-run basis. And they did. Many Albanians view the UCK as heroes, just like many Serbs view Milosovic and his forces, as heroes. To the world community, both of those factions have terrorized one another and to us, neither of them are heroes. As for the Transylvanian issue, I don't buy it. I see it the other way around: there is an Albanian majority in Kosovo and there was, and still is, a Romanian majority in Transylvania. The way I see it, the Albanian cause has more things in common with the Romanian cause of the 19th- and 20th century.
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Post by fannoli on Jan 30, 2008 11:55:34 GMT -5
I guess this is a fair reply on your part. I didnt object to your relationship with Serbs. You are neighbours and thats why you are supporting them today because of your own interest. Fair enough!!
Then why should I feel close to your people? Because of a few vlachs villagers that are today assimilated in Albanian society? Or because of the insignificant and replacable economic ties that we have with you. I whole heartedly believe the Albanian government & people should cut relationship with countries that harm our interest. And im bitter that no official response from our government is given to Romania yet.
But your support for Serbia has not even been quiet but fervent. To the extent that you make Greece & Slovakia look like an angel.
At the end of the day, western countries will recognize and support Kosovo and you will either be forced to take a unified stance with EU or be ignored.
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 30, 2008 12:39:04 GMT -5
Here is what our PM said:
I must ask, have the Albanians made a good plan on how they should go about, in case of independence? Have the Albanians forged a plan on how to cope with the problems it will face? What kind of constitution and legislative will you have? From what I understand, one of the leaders of UCK is to be your PM. That same leader has been accused of warcrimes. Why, then, when all of these things seem to be unclear, should we support an independence? It is within our right to concerned of a possible future country that may distabilize the region further. If the Kosovar PM has been involved in warcrimes, then that adds it further to our concern.
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 30, 2008 13:27:49 GMT -5
How many Balkan nations can say that they had a coherent strategy on self-government following their liberation from the Ottoman Empire? How many of them didnt go through trial periods, times of turmoil, economic depressions... hell, how many of them are even rich? How many of those people who demanded independence drew out a long and well detailed constitution and legislation? Look what happened in Greece following their independent: decades of civil turmoil and factional government. In almost all cases, nations flowered by facing trial-and-errors.
This even applies to the US, or France, following their own revolutions. And in those cases, they had a tradition of liberalization , institutionalizing and constitution growth to help them...
I dont believe that "life" starts at inception...
And both Thaci and Ceku are cleared of warcrime charges... I dont know if Thaci was even charged...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 30, 2008 14:04:35 GMT -5
Thaci and Ceku have never been charged (except by the Serbs).
Anittas, you brought up fair points which I was unaware of. But that does not change the fact that there is another side of the coin. The side which we presented. As FanNoli said, it is not a matter of us asking of you to abort all relations and all cooperation you have with Serbia & the Serbs. Not even Kosova and Albania will be free of relations with Serbia (trade et cetera). What we're asking for is support for our endeavour to finally get rid of a bloody past, to finally achieve freedom and establish our own independent state and focuse on the improvement of a neglected economy in order to help a neglected youth. There is not a member of a single nation in the Balkans which cannot relate, not even the Serbs if they tried (they were once subjugated by the Ottoman empire).
Therein lies our dissapointment. And if you cannot accept that viewpoint, that's your issue. I liked c0gnate's explanation very much. Such an explanation indicates that this is pure diplomacy. I mean, which sane person actually believes that a Slav Macedonian is sympathetic with the Albanian cause and curses the Serbs? Yet this does not stop his government to support Kosova's independence. It is just that in Romania's case, I fear and suspect that the support for the Serbs goes beyond and deeper than the official stance of the RO government. Then again, one mustn't generalize. And I trully hope that I am wrong in my suspicion and fear. Because even though with no close relatives, science has prooven that you are the closest we've got to a relative. Cousins might be a suitable term. And I would hate if my cousin/s turned against me.
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 30, 2008 16:04:55 GMT -5
Most Romanians are not aware of the historical link to Albanians. Some Romanians hold a religious bias against the Muslim Albanians and Bosniaks, altough not so much against Turks. This is unfortunate, but that's how they reality looks like. These people, however, are still quite moderate in their views and they represent the older generation. We have few radicals and most Romanians are indifferent to Albanians. C0gnate is correct in his assertation that the true motive behind this is Romania's fear of seperatism movements. Our intelligence service report of rising nationalism within certain groups. Altough these groups are small, they can still cause damage. Personally, I don't think this ought to be a issue and I say what I've always said: we should've remained neutral and help both sides wherever we could. The Kosovo issue is a perplex one and if the regional powers don't have an answer to the conflict, then we surely cannot contribute much to the solving of the conflict by causing such agitation. However, there are a few things to point out. I believe that many feel that Albanians lack the political and mental maturity. Romania has had its share of turmoil, like the rest of the countries in the region, but when the Turks left our soil, we didn't start to abuse the remainder of the population. We built them a mosque. I don't think we will see the Kosovars building churches any time soon. Toskali will probably volunteer to demolish the remaining ones. I also wonder what will happen to the Serbs to the north. I don't have any statistics at hand, but if they constitute a majority in the region, even if it's a small region, shouldn't they then be seperated from Kosovo proper? If we are to follow your logic, Donnie, then the answer should be yes for two reasons: 1. You believe that the majority should decide for themselves. Since Kosovo was never part of an Albanian state, then your argument has no historical justification; therefore, only those areas populated by an Albanian majority would deserve to gain independence. 2. You used examples of past resolutions where Romania and Serbia gained land due to their population being a majority in the region. That's true, but just like I said in the point above, the resolutions were regional-based, but based on the presence of the population. Serbia, Romania, and Hungary split Banat in three based on that principle, altough one could say that smaller areas holding a Romanian majority went to Serbia, but that's okay, because we got rid of people like c0gnate. The Hungarians in Trasylvania were kept because they were located in the middle of the region, forming an enclave; however, other areas which are now part of Hungary, held a strong Romanian presence, but that wasn't enough. What about Bukovina, which was the core region of Moldavia since middle 14th century? Some Ruthenians were deliberately settled there by Stephen the Great and their numbers grew until a few centuries later, they proclaimed independence from Romania. Is that fair, do you think? Northern Bukovina is now part of Ukraine. All of these things need to be settled and it seems that the EU hasn't even touched this subject. Do you think that because France and others say one thing, it must be like that? Buddy, the Allies promised us the whole of Banat and we ended with less than half. When we eliberated Bulgaria, Russia promised us Silistra. We never got it. Wake up and smell the roses, Donnie. At least we had competent diplomats who were at the court of Napoleon III; who presided over the League of Nations and who knew what buttons to push. You haven't formed an elite. You got no one to speak on your behalf, unless they're foreigners that hold geopolitical interests. You are at their mercy. The things that happened during the Kosovo crises are long forgotten and unfortunatelly for you, those Kosovars that migrated to the West hven't done much to improve the image of Albanians. Now, if we look at Romania's position, this is what we, officially, say: Source: www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/14/europe/EU-POL-EU-Summit.phpNotice the keyword "unilateral." That means we want that Serbia's interest to be taken into consideration and according to international law, that is how it ought to be. I mean, Serbia hasn't lost a war, Donnie, because NATO's operation in Kosovo was not considered a war. In fact, the allies haven't liberated Kosovo. They forced Serbia to retreat, but Serbia was not a defeated country that had to agree to whatever conditions the victors put on the table. On paper, they can't force Serbia to agree to something they don't want to agree to. My guess is that the issue will have to be solved at a negotiations table between Serbs and Albanians, with the rest working as mediators. Let's hope Kosovo will not be another Palestine.
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Post by c0gnate on Jan 30, 2008 16:57:00 GMT -5
I lean towards a division of Kosova, with the regions adjacent to Serbia and large Serbian population joining Serbia, in exchange for Presheva and Bujanovac, the ethnic Albanian regions, now in Serbia, but adjoining Kosova. Similarly the ethnic Albanian regions of Macedonia, Greece and Montenegro should join Kosova. Eventually Kosova could join Albania.
At the same time the Serbian Republic of Bosnia should be allowed to Join Serbia.
All this following internationally supervised local plebiscites.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 31, 2008 13:11:45 GMT -5
Albanians are prejudiced against Romanians as well to an extent. Not religiously, but in other ways. There's an impression of a prevalent Serbophilism there. The historical connection is also something the majority of both our nations are unaware of.
Just like a child needs to grow physically and mentally to reach adulthood, state builders need experience to become politically and mentally mature. No state in the Balkans has been mature since the beginning. All have made mistakes. As far as persecutions go, I will not speak of Romania since I do not know much about your history (regretably). BUT, most Balkan nations upon achieving independence DID persecute their minorities; the Serbs persecuted the Albanians trhoughout the 20th century, Greeks emptied Greece of Albanians and other ethnicities (Turks among others) and so on. Infact I believe Albania to be the most tolerant state in the Balkans as far as giving minorities national rights goes. It still being homogenous is more related to the fact that there never really was a sizeable non-Albanian population within our territories; and if there were, such ethnic elements were absorbed long before Albania became independent 1912.
Not that easy. IF they separate as well, then the Albanian-dominated territories of the Presheva Valley (Presevo in Serbian) should be ceded to Kosova as C0gnate mentioned.
Problem is that uptil now, this is exactly what the International Community has tried to achieve, namely a 'compromise' between the Albanians & Serbs. This sounds quite idealistic, but as you might suspect, it is not realistic. There are alot of fields within which one might compromise. BUT, when it comes to the political status of Kosova, there cannot be a 'compromise'. People speak of conditional independence, full independence, autonomy. But, when I say status, I am referring to Kosova's relation to Serbia. It is clearer than crystal water that Kosova will not be fully independent for quite some time. Its path towards whatever goal we're heading towards will be dictated very much by other factors besides the local elected leaders. What I am referring to is the fact that Kosova will either remain within Serbia as a self-governing autonomous region, or seceede as a conditionally independent state.
We choose the latter, and within this aspect there can be no 'compromise'; we either remain within Serbia or we don't. And it is crystal clear to anyone that we will never accept remaining under the Serbs, nor will the Serbs accept Kosova's secession. Conclusively, we might agree to the fact that some side must be dissapointed, one side must be run over. We Albanians have ceded over many privileges to the Serbs, such as an unproportionally high number of Serb dominated municipalities (even small villages have achieved the status of a municipality), great advantages for the churches and monasteries (expanding their estates -- hi Middle Age), quoting them into the parliament which they boycott ..... etc.
It's been such a long while that it isn't funny anymore. Quite on the contrary, it is unbearable. Solving the issue and giving an end to the status quo will enable the people to focuse on other matters. The local politicians won't be able to further use the independence card as an excuse to avoid other responsibilities, such as the high unemployment, criminal rate & corruption.
Serbs are holding onto Kosova because the latter has achieved an arifically conceived cult status as the 'cradle' of Serbdom. This is a false myth consciously created by the established intellectual nationalists of the 19th and 20th centuries. It is a topic in its own and I won't venture into it. Needless to say that we have waited for quite some while now. The situation will be more alike Palestine or other frozen conflicts the longer we hesitate. That is why a consensus within the EU is so crucial; to put pressure on the opportunistic Russians who do not hesitate themselves to play with the lives of two million people for the sake of reasserting herself as a global player equal to the US & EU.
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 31, 2008 15:24:34 GMT -5
I don't want the discussion to deviate too much on Romania, so I will briefly say that Romania was lucky in making some good deals with the Ottomans and the Bulgarians by exchanging populations, and as such, minimize possible frictions between the different groups of people. Minorities that remained in Dobrogea were not seen as a threat and did not experience any significant discrimination. The Transylvanian Saxons were doing okay, even though many were 'released' to Germany for a ransom. There have been incidents with the Hungarians, over the century, but nothing substantial that would be recognized as ethnic cleansing. Many died during the Ceausescu era, but the motive was political. Jews, on the other hand, suffered greatly at the hands of the rising fascism in Romania. We tried to assimilate the Ukrainians of Northern Bukovina over night. The plan failed, but at least we were not madmen as the Poles. Poland proposed to us that Romania and Poland should divide the whole of Ukraine and help each other maintain control over the indigeous population. A manman's plan, which we refused to take part in. Another concern is if Kosovo becomes a haven for Wahhabism and terrorism cells, much like in Bosnia. It's not clear to me why you don't oust the Arabs from your country. What they do there is an insult to you and the entire European continent. According to an article, Romania is set to recognize the independence of Kosovo in 'wave three'. It seems that your greatest opposition within the EU will be Cyprus. illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=kosovokosovadardania&action=display&thread=1201795555
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 31, 2008 15:32:51 GMT -5
I don't know about that. In Romania, for instance, all minorities have a seat secured in the parliament, including the Albanian community which is less than 10,000 strong.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 31, 2008 17:17:52 GMT -5
Now you look stupid....because Albanians in Greece and Montenegro will forever be immigrants, get used to it.
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Post by Duke John on Feb 1, 2008 0:31:06 GMT -5
Now you look stupid....because Albanians in Greece and Montenegro will forever be immigrants, get used to it. Greece is another thing except if we are not including Arvanites to Albanians of Greece but Montenegro, as far as i know Albanians of Montenegro are no immigrants,they are natives!
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Post by terroreign on Feb 1, 2008 3:52:22 GMT -5
Natives just like europeans are to america...
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Post by Duke John on Feb 1, 2008 4:06:32 GMT -5
Natives just like europeans are to america... Would you want to tell me from where did Albanians of Montenegro immigrate,? from Dardania,Albania,Makedonia,Greece? from where?
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