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Post by insomniac on Feb 5, 2009 12:21:57 GMT -5
Okay, i opened a new thread to discuss about this subject the civilized way without hearing childish slurs of chechnia by HD. I would like him not to participate here and will request by mods his posts to be deleted.
Okay on subject now,
We have to define what is European? What makes one European? Merely the geographical location of it? If that is so, are Turkish people on Instanbul European? Is there such a thing of European culture and what does that mean? Does European mean Christianity? In that case Albanians are a secular people and a mishmash of all three main religions.
On this ground, I understand what Meltdown meant when he said that. He meant that we are Albanian, caucasian, secular and we have as much in common with North Americans as we do with Europeans.
If you associate everything white with European then yes we are one. However if you distinguish between Americans and Europeans. Then we can distinguish between Albanians and European.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 5, 2009 13:59:32 GMT -5
It's interesting to hear the British who rarely see themselves as European or part of Europe, but as a separate entity distinct from the continent. "I went to Europe, stayed in Paris for one week, it was quite pleasant" etc.
It is all a matter of perspective. We are just as European as the other Europeans. But we are first and foremost Albanians. But then there are those who identify more strongly with their Europeanness than others, like the Belgians, or the Greeks if we are to believe Kastorianos (this latter example might be a case of complex due to this individual's immediate Asiatic ancestry). It is a question of attitude and views.
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Post by insomniac on Feb 5, 2009 14:15:44 GMT -5
When talking Geography. Well Europe is a peninsula of the Asian continent. The European plains extent well beyond and into Asia. Supposedly there is a mental geographical division in the Ural mountains and Bosphorus channel. I think European though is more of a cultural & economic term. This region has been the economic centre for thousands of years. What i mean by a peninsula of Asia is this picture which shows there is no geographical division between Europe and Asia. Pic: i43.tinypic.com/w041g6.jpgSo we can rule out geography as a deciding factor of being European.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 5, 2009 14:27:13 GMT -5
I think the issue of Europeanness is a matter of conscience and identification primarily, with roots in certain distinctive political developments in the past which intensified during the European expansion when large portions of the world outside Europe was colonized by European countries. A differentiation between the "masters" and "servants" was needed, a 'we' and 'them', and a stronger sense of being European grew.
Otherwise, culturally and religiously, the Balkans (the larger faction) was always more closely intertwined with Minor Asia than Western Europe, from the time of Byzantium and beyond till now.
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Post by insomniac on Feb 5, 2009 14:30:54 GMT -5
I agree.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Feb 5, 2009 16:24:19 GMT -5
In what meaning do you consider your self as European? Geographicly? Of course.
What the civilised world means with the word Europe has two basic piles. Firstly ,Hellenism and its outgrowths(tell it Democracy, Philosophy, Athletism, Theater, Sciences in general etc etc) together with Roman tradition especially in the law system. And secondly Christianity.
Albanians from the beginning of their appearance in history(11th century AD) had a parasitic position in local history based on their warlike placke nature.
Can you imagine Europe without Greece? Can you imagine Europe without Rome and France? With out Britain and Russia?
And can you imagine Europe without Albania? What would be the difference because of this absence?
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Post by insomniac on Feb 5, 2009 16:37:19 GMT -5
Patrinos, I specifically asked this to be a civilized discussion. We can ask the same question: "Can you imagine Europe without Belgium?" Yes, I can.
When a country is small people dont usually hear of its contribution.
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Post by meltdown711 on Feb 5, 2009 16:56:57 GMT -5
To answer insomniac: I, and I stress IIIIII, dont feel my people are European in culture nor heritage. Many of us today want to associate with Europe for a number of reasons we juxtapose with the east. Its natural that we do since Europe is today connected with wealth (primarily) and liberalism, among various other characteristics. However the fact is that the last 500 years, no matter HOW hard some try and forget it, ignore it, or downplay it, have been extremely instrumental in the formation of the identity of the Albanian people. We, unlike the Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Croatians, etc. etc. converted to a religion that is called Islam, for the most part. This automatically linked us to a culture under the east. We adopted middle eastern habits (look back to 1912 and Tirana didnt look much different from any other large town in either modern Turkey or Syria or Jordan... we became part of an empire that was eastern in its roots, though with strong European characteristics. We never developed the enlightenment movement nor underwent the social evolutions that modern European society underwent (our secularism, for instance, was largely constructed by the communist regime). For the next several centuries Albanian played a strong role in this movement. Note that much of Albanian nobility, like Zog for instance, had strong connections to eastern royalty. The influence of the Ottoman derived conversion to Islam had a massive impact on how Albanians are.
My mother, just a small example (and she even considers herself a Christian), is afraid to kill a spider... if you are a Muslim you know why that superstition, which is also prevalent in the middle east, is so...
In that sense, our sense of "Europeaness" is kind of a false construct. An identity largely realized in the early 20th century by intellectual nationalists who from the beginning counted on racial reasons for it (one of the first claims to Albania's European identity was: 1) Scanderbeg, 2) 'Arianism', a term which was actually used by early Albanian nationalists to separate themselves from, say, Anatolians. A people we have a sort of racism towards. in the early 1900's one of the biggest grievances towards the Sultan was the insult to Albanian honor by placing Anatolian troops in Albania, Gjergj Fishta quoted the line "God did not make Albania for the Circassian, nor the Dark skinned Turk and his Moor"). The people's mentality and habits did not feel that.
The same in fact can be said of most Balkan countries. In most ways it was a construct for all. It just now matters how they view themselves. I personally do not see myself as European. A long while back I did, and defined with it. Today I feel different. I see Albanians in general as different from it. The gestures and habits of Albanians from Tirana are closer to what i see from say Turks of Istanbul than French from Paris...
The last 50-70 years of Albanian historiography has been re-organized and re-written largely by a group of people who looked back on it with some level of unwarranted embarrassment. Many, unjustly, during Communism for instance, looked back on the Ottoman Empire and portrayed a situation that was extremely negative.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 5, 2009 17:14:19 GMT -5
Well, in a way Meltdown, the sense of being European is a construct not only for us, but for all nations within Europe. As I explained above, a sense of being European as opposed to Asiatic, African or whatever, became evident in the consciousness of European explorers, colonizers and conquorors as they came into contact with people outside of our continent. The sense of being Europe was only made evident then, and strengthened by a type of propaganda which aimed to differentiate between the "master" European nations and the "savages" of the Americas and Africa etc.
Christianity, which has had its impact on Europeans more than any other religion, is just as Islam a middle-eastern import, an Abrahamic religion with the same roots as Judaism and Islam. That our culture is distinct from other Europeans is evident under the light of the different corses we've taken in history. Iceland, in the cold waters of the North Atlantic, did not experience the Ottoman empire and its influences. Likewise we, and other Europeans, did not experience the impact of Central Asian culture and language as the Hungarians did. All Europeans have their distinct cultures, some more close to each other than others, but all are European in their own sense. It does necessarely not negate any other, perhaps more "deviating" cultures as European.
Having said that, I want to exclude Islam for one moment. Take it away, and we Albanians and the Bosnians are no more closer culturally to Anatolia than the Serbs or Greeks are. What is really the difference between souvlaki & shishkebab, other than the former being pork and the latter lamb? Isn't the famous "Serbian" cevapcici & rakija, national dish & beverage, really Asiatic imports; cevapcici deriving from the Persian word for grilled meat, and the latter an Arab word, arak ...j ust examples.
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Feb 5, 2009 17:17:56 GMT -5
^^thats right "you" its only YOUR opinion(and its absurd especially since u put Greeks in the same box with Croatians and Serbs)....as someone who is more familiar with Albanians and Greeks then most of u in here i can honetly tell u and not meaning to offend anyone Greeks are MUCH MUCH MUCH more closer to middle eastern culture then any other balkan nation... religion has nothing to do with it. Greece is just in a geographical position where they are close to the east and west and get along great with both...
but because majority of Albanians are secular Muslims its easier to generalize and say theyre closer to the mid east and Turkey which couldnt be farther from the truth. Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordinians, Syrians love and admire Greek culture, they dont give a shit about Albania (Turkey is a different story they actually genuially like us) ....you are clueless about Albania and just about everything else.
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Post by meltdown711 on Feb 5, 2009 17:24:45 GMT -5
It is, but then so is nationalism, so is every conscious identity, down to the family. Nationalism generally works in contrast to another identity. That in order for "us" to form there has to be a "them". Its just that we have for the last 500 years largely been part of them "them" rather than the "us". Our traditions and practices are not exactly in match with those of Europe.
1700 years is no short period of time. Maybe a long time ago Christianity was just another branch of an eastern monotheistic faith, but today it has come a long way and has developed into an instrinsic aspect of Europe. Europeans made it their own, they applied their language to it, their native heritage. They devoted their art to it, they devoted much of what we today connect with Europe. It has been their foundation for the last millennium. We cant try and push it out of the way because we want in...
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Post by insomniac on Feb 5, 2009 17:25:56 GMT -5
I think European is a recent term & has also to do with standard of living. This region was/is the economic centre of the world. The map shows that Europe has been the centre of earth for quite some time now. The term became even stronger during colonial era when Europeans colonized more than half of the world. European influence go as far as China.
We cannot deny Albanian is an Indo-European language. We also cant deny the influence we had from different empires through time: Roman,Byzantine, Ottoman. Our culture is a reflection of these invasions.
How do i feel myself? I have spend as much time in Canada as i have spent in Albania. Both countries have influnced me. I feel myself closer to the western values that developed as a result of enlightement rather than to the east.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 5, 2009 17:36:35 GMT -5
Except that there is a genetical dimension to the unit of family as well, and to a lesser extent to that of the nation. But this cannot be applied to a whole continent, considering that certain populations within Europe might have a greater genetical kinship with some population outside Europe than with a fellow European population centered somewhere else in the continent.
Again, a matter of perspective. I see us as simply ourselves, and Islam as yet another influence along Christianity. Perhaps some Albanians did identify with the Sultan and the Ottomans, but I think most identified with their clan and immediate kinship. And they were just as much Albanian as they had been previously, when no converts existed.
You forgot to specify a certain part of Europeans ... not all. As I said earlier, the culture and ways of one segment of Europe's population does not reduce another as 'less' European ... they're just all puzzles of a larger picture. Christianity was never so much imbedded in our psyche either way, so we could be explained as "Europeans who took a slightly different path" ... just as Orthodox Greeks took a different path from Protestant Germans or Catholic Portuguese.
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Post by meltdown711 on Feb 5, 2009 17:41:34 GMT -5
Donnie, we can argue this all day, but I neither have the time nor really feel like arguing it. In the end, I have enough respect for you opinion and judgement to say that I agree to disagree. For me, Albanians are not European and nor do I wish them nor care for them to be. From what Ive seen, from having traveled to Italy, Spain, Switzerland, France etc. etc., Albanians from say, Tirana, have a different mentality derived from a different cultural upbringing.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 5, 2009 17:46:29 GMT -5
Well, the same goes with you. We're bond to disagree on this. Not that I find myself in need of being accepted by fellow Europeans, I could not care less, but simply because I do not view Europe as a homogenous cultural entity where we are the black sheep, but rather as a great puzzle where we contribute with our own little piece, just as everyone else.
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Feb 5, 2009 17:48:56 GMT -5
yea Albanians from Tirana and middle Albania in general have a different mentalitly because theyre leftover bastard children of the Ottomans...get over urself u jackass. anyone who lives in Europe is European, the only reason the west helped Kosovo is because they saw the cute little blonde kids on tv, ur just a moron and quite possibly the most anti-Albanian person in here. I don't even know why you you're Albanian or ur signature is "Liberty has its roots in blood" what liberty, what blood? is that supposed to be a joke? didnt u like taking up the ass from teh Ottomans and arent u sad they left? whats more disgusting is u quote Pashko Vasa, ur sucha clown.
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Post by Kastorianos on Feb 5, 2009 18:04:32 GMT -5
Nothing easier than that. But I have to add Kosovo to that. ;D
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Post by meltdown711 on Feb 5, 2009 18:11:52 GMT -5
Korcar, your a person without an identity. That much is clear. Have a traditional confusion that arises in a person who simply cannot identify with any group. You can't identify with most Alb since most Albs are Muslim (or "Ottoman leftovers" or "Turks" as you have also put it) but the fact that you speak their language also means that you cant so easily define with your culturally closer neighbors (Greeks). So now, Albanian but not Muslim and Orthodox Christian and not Greek, you cant strive to find an identity. And you have, with your constant touting of "Korcar" you have finally found a middle group.
So I have plenty of right to talk about Albanians, you, on the otherhand, have closed yourself shut in Korca. Created a siege around yourself to keep you in... Well dont worry if you never come out, we all know the truth... I can say that I define with any Alb, whether he is from Mitrovica or Saranda, Tetova or Durres...
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Post by sotneser on Feb 5, 2009 18:28:40 GMT -5
Nothing easier than that. But I have to add Kosovo to that. ;D Fuck off. I'm Albanian within Europe. Like I give a shit that a Greek thinks otherwise...hahahaha
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Feb 5, 2009 18:42:59 GMT -5
really now i thought i was specific...i said Tirana and middle Albania(even their music is more influenced by Turkey)...i mentioned nothing about religion and I highlighted the Europeaness of the blonde Kosovar Albanian kids...this should have been obvious. as far as my identity i'm not the one who always brings out his .0111234 Greek percentage in here, thats not necessary we're all mixed in the balkans but most peopel chose one identity and stick with it....something u havent grasped yet, and u dont seem to understand that blood or religion does not always equal identity and ur more anti-Albanian then Highduke. just stfu already u make no sense and u know nothing of Albania.
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