donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Sept 13, 2009 8:13:39 GMT -5
What is "we" Patrine? Are you 100 per cent sure your ancestors didn't convert to Islam and re-converted at the dawn of the Greek revolution? Crete was 1/2 Muslim in the 19th century ... now it's completely Christian. Peloponessus held a significiant Muslim population, but it was annihilated & expelled, the rest forcefully/'willingly' converted. References of "Turks" living across Greece were in most instances references to indigenous converts and not ethnic Turks.
Perhaps what you meant to say is that you're the inheritors of Byzantine dogma and radicalism and consequently you could not tolerate the presence of Islam in your lands and thus litterally erased it ...
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Sept 13, 2009 9:34:19 GMT -5
It happens to know from family tradition, and there is a paper in Independence Archives with my ancestor's signature, who lived in a small village of Lakonia, near Sparti. In this document he askes with his co-villagers their belongings back, because they had to leave from there after the near by Tourkobardouniotes (arvanites converted to islam), in the decade of 1780's, made two familes of the village to accept islam due to their debts and those who haven't accepted to cut their d!ck were sent them away... It was signed in 1828 when the area was free and the ex-residents asked to return home. Unfortunately Mavromichalis family was too strong and he took all the area...and my ancestors moved to Patras' area...
Those who become muslims, were viewed as Turks, and none would like to live in a hostile environment...and the vast majority were deported to Turkey. And a great amount of the muslims were albanian speakers, about half of them, like Laliotes and Bardouniotes, who had already left Moreas in the first year of the Revolution.
Islam back then wasn't only a religion, that somebody would like its ideas and embrace it... becoming a muslim under Osmanlilik made you a non- kaour with all the benefits, and for some this meant betrayal and for other a... clever choise..... I mean that I respect a muslim Turk or an Arab, but historically Balkan muslims played a very...dirty job because of their convertion...
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Sept 13, 2009 19:56:42 GMT -5
Exactly, plus a significiant deal were also forcefully converted back to Orthodoxism. This new stance of yours is quite different from your earlier statement that;
In reality, quite alot of your own compatriots converted to Islam as well. That they're nowhere to be found today is just a testimony of your religious intolerance and bigotry.
Lol, such a simplistic ontological worldview. Tell me, when you say "dirty", what exactly trying to say? It feels you're almost deliberately avoiding another term to describe what you mean, for in using it would inherently expose how flawed your argumentation really is.
One could almost suspect that this conversion is seen by you as some sort of betrayal against ... well, you? But tell us, when did my people solemnly declare itself loyal to you? Were we to remain Orthodox in a sign of solidarity with you? In what way were you better than the Turks? The Byzantines were as much our enemies as the Turks were. The Greek Orthodox Church established itself comfortably as an authoritative religious organ under the Sultan's wing ... if we were to choose between being the subjects of a bloodsucking patriarchate and a tyrant, why would we choose you over the Turks? With you, there would've been no benefits, only a potential threat of linguistic & cultural assimilation and a reduction from free men to landtied serfs. With the Turks we could live out our reputation as soldiers and warriors ...
You said it yourself; it wasn't solely a matter of religion, but politics as well.
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Sept 14, 2009 11:28:33 GMT -5
If we exlude north Macedonia and Thrace, and the area of Larisa, muslim polulation in Greece was a small minority. And in these areas a great number of the Muslims(who were "exchanged" in 1922) were greek/vlach/albanian/slav speakers. In Moreas, for example, the muslim population in 16th century was 3% of the total population ( books.google.com/books?id=zQsB_AghBKkC&pg=PA48&dq=islamisation+balkans#v=onepage&q=islamisation%20balkans&f=false). The percentage changed during 1770s' when about 40.000 Moraites migrated to Minor Asia after....I suppose you know the reason... . I mean that the number of " neofotistous" as the ones who returned to orthodoxy were called was tiny... I think you're a clever guy...i don't mean that when you massively converted to islam you betrayed us......but let me ask you...what a catholic Mirdit(correct?) thought of his same language neighbors who converted...wouldn't they call them "Turks"...? Or wouldn't a muslim Lab call a christian Cham a kaour and consider him inferior...? Maybe we have a different opinion on what " free man" means... and I suppose you mean, for the period we're talking about, a man who converted and gained all the benefits and was saved from all the degradings that a kaour experienced... I consider relatively more "free man" a Maniati who lived in his rocks, with no Ottoman presence around, keeping his cultural identity, and his religion of course, with privileges that not even a average Turk had, not obligated to fight for Ottomans' shake etc etc, than a islamized Geg who considered honour to gain a high rank in the osman asker... And what the high orthodox clergy did during the yoke, is a total different thing from what simple papas along with their compatriots did and experienced. Personally I consider the role of the high ranked cleric opprobrious, with some important exceptions, of course. Didn't Maniates, Sfakians, Souliotes, Agrafiotes/Sarakatsani, Mirdites and Montenegrins lived out reputation as soldiers and warriors....??
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on Sept 14, 2009 16:14:47 GMT -5
And if we exclude Peloponessus, Crete etc etc ... keep excluding until you're happy.
I don't understand where you're getting at. How does this negate any of my points? If there were frictions between the different religious communities doesn't mean they thought of it in terms of "betrayal" and "loyalty", religion in itself would've been a sufficient reason for quarrell.
To answer your question, yes, the terms giaour (kaurr) and turk were used, but these weren't necessarely negatively charged/intended. Even to this day, in Laberia, the term kaurr is a normal term for a Christian and isn't intended as an insult. The coexistance is exemplified by many anecdotes and facts, with the children of priests and imams marrying, Christians and Muslims participating in each others' festivities and religious celebrations and so forth. The core of Karamahmud pasha Bushatlliu's army in the north was composed by Christian highlanders, his most loyal subjects. Ali pasha too recruited many of his most loyal followers among the Orthodox people, his two secretaries being Greek.
What do I mean by "free"? This isn't such a blurry topic, it's rather simple; a free man was someone who could carry arms and thus be able to defend his and his family's honour, being, as much as he could, his own master, having access to court and have his word heard. I'm not so certain these could be called 'privileges"; these were rights enjoyed by the askeri (warrior) class of the Ottoman empire, and with rights come obligations, such as serving the army. Christians on the other hand (disregarding the devsirme practice, which was later abandoned) were exempted from military service. Couldn't that be seen as a privilege, if we're allowed to turn tables? A fact which in many instances resulted in demographic catastrophies for the indigenous Muslim population.
A good example is Bosnia, which in the 16th century was seventy per cent Muslim. Wars along the frontier with the Habsburg empire, but also drafting warriors for the eastern Persian front, left Bosnian lands desolate and in need of repopulation. This paved the way for the introduction of Orthodox Slavs and Vlachs who in the 19th century passed the Muslim element in numbers and became the largest religious (and thereafter 'ethnic' i.e. 'Serbs') community in Bosnia and Hercegovina. In other words, when you say "privileges", others might say dignity. Because far from all converts achieved fame and wealth, quite the contrary.
These groups of people had the luxoury, if we may use this word, of living in hostile and inaccessible mountains which the Turks had difficulties in controlling. They were given autonomy and there was no need to convert. But in territories where the Turks established absolute rule and authority, a giaour couldn't even dare to think of going around armed and dictate his own life fully.
Infact, the kinsmen of those above-mentioned groups who moved to or found themselves in lower altitudes often converted in order to continue with their way of life. In Montenegro, many districts got Islamized, like Sanjak (with centers like Rozaje and Berane), Plav and Gusinje, Niksic etc. Same thing in Northern Albania and Cameria (though I will not comment on Greece). Wonder why?
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Sept 14, 2009 17:01:36 GMT -5
And if we exclude Peloponessus, Crete etc etc ... keep excluding until you're happy. North Macedonia and western Thrace and Larisa town isn't the whole Greece, is it...? At least we sent them back..nearer to... the Red Apple-tree( i don't think you know whats that...but if you search it, you'll understand...) If your point is that Greeks during the ottoman yoke were intolerant towards muslims either they were haldups...or hellenophones, albanians,slavs etc...you got it right... I agree...and I find it very logical...having in mind greek tradition and what we've experienced by Islam... Well Greeks who served in the court of Turks( and Ali Pasha) weren't viewed as heroes by the rest...Souliotes served also in Ali's asker...do you think that this is why they felt proud...? I suppose you know the Phanariotes guys...they were maybe the most powerful community inside the empire...do you think that I, or any other Greek, would put the face of Mavrokordatos as my avatar?...lol...no... We've said that stuff again and again...but as I don't consider "free man" a Greek who joins SS... and with the swastika in his arm walks and oppress his compatriots...while he is going richer... ...as I don't consider dignified an Albanian who hellenize himself... abjured his real identity in order to have a easier life in Greece(according to his mind...)... ...in the same way I don't consider islamization during the ottoman yoke a dignified act...
|
|
|
Post by macmako on Sept 14, 2009 19:10:13 GMT -5
What is "we" Patrine? Are you 100 per cent sure your ancestors didn't convert to Islam and re-converted at the dawn of the Greek revolution? Crete was 1/2 Muslim in the 19th century ... now it's completely Christian. Peloponessus held a significiant Muslim population, but it was annihilated & expelled, the rest forcefully/'willingly' converted. References of "Turks" living across Greece were in most instances references to indigenous converts and not ethnic Turks. Perhaps what you meant to say is that you're the inheritors of Byzantine dogma and radicalism and consequently you could not tolerate the presence of Islam in your lands and thus litterally erased it ... I read your posts, Donnie. They are full of common sense and logic. This one in particular because it is indeed a reality for many Greeks living under duress. While I understand the reality of some of my Greek ancestors converting under the boot of the Ottoman empire in Asia Minor, they were under extreme duress with the Young Turks with Ataturk. It was convert or die. While I am open to the fact that we may have some converts in our family (no proof that they did not), my father denies such a thing. I ask if he has proof. No proof. All we know is that those that are Greek Orthodox escaped to Southern Russia in the 1920's.
|
|
bato2
Moderator
Art Changed The World
Posts: 1,352
|
Post by bato2 on Sept 21, 2009 9:20:52 GMT -5
Patrino What is your religion? Do you know? What if you were adopted by a budhist or muslim family? Your religion Is a label you were told by your parents... You were told you were part of "that" clan You were told "Your Kings clothes" were brand new, and the most beautiful clothes in the universe wile he was naked. You are just a sheep on the crowd ! My parents let me free to believe the god i wanted and i think that is much better
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Sept 21, 2009 11:19:27 GMT -5
Well, maybe if I was a tourkalvanos who was ashamed of his muslim heritage i would claim to be atheist too...but yo...
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 21, 2009 15:45:58 GMT -5
I am a proud Turkalvanos, proud of my heritage... and yet an Atheist...
how do you explain that?
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Sept 21, 2009 16:36:05 GMT -5
Everybody in the forum knows that you are a little bit confused... ;D
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 21, 2009 16:36:57 GMT -5
Like I said the past, Patrinos, there is yesteday and then there is today.
|
|