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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 29, 2009 0:55:47 GMT -5
balkanweb.com/sitev4/lajme.php?id=36881Karamanlis nesër në Tiranë. Çamët në protestë• Qindra çamë tubuan sot paradite në sheshin “Skënderbej” një ditë para vizitës së kryeministrit grek Kostat Karamanlis në Tiranë. Ambasada greke në Tiranë refuzoi takimin e tyre me kryeministrin Karamanlis, gjatë kohës që ai do të qëndronte në Tiranë. Version multimedial i ketij lajmi TIRANE-Kryeministri grek Kostas Karamanlis pritet të nisë nesër viziten e tij të parë zyrtare në Shqipëri. Në një ceremoni zyrtare, kryeministri Berisha do të presë nesër në mesditë homologun e tij grek. Axhenda e ngjeshur e Karamanlis nis me nje takim tet a tet, në kryeministri, mes të cilëve do të ketë bisedime zyrtare dhe një konferencë të përbashkët për shtyp. Një ditë para vizitës së kryeministrit grek Kostat Karamanlis në Tiranë, shoqata “Çamëria” protestoi sot për t’i kujtuar qeverisë zgjidhjen e cështjes “Çame”. Qindra çamë tubuan sot në sheshin “Skënderbej” duke u shprehur se vizita e kreut të qeverisë greke nesër në Tiranë duhet të shërbejë për sensibilizimin e politikës së dy vendeve për zgjidhjen përfundimtare të cështjes që ka mbetur ende peng i historisë. Tahir Muhedini kryetari i shoqatës artikuloi edhe një herë kërkesat e tyre drejtuar Greqisë: “Së pari, të lejohen moshat e mëdha të shkojnë pranë varreve të parëve të tyre për ti nderuar me një tufë lule. Së dyti, të ngrihet një memorial në Tesproti në nderim të viktimave të pafajshme të popullsisë came gjatë viteve 1944- 1945. Së treti, të nisin bisedimet mes dy qeverive për zgjidhjen e cështjes “came” e cila do t’i shërbejë të tashmes e së ardhmes europiane të Shqipërisë e Ballkanit Marrëveshjet e qeverisë shqiptare me atë greke sic ishte ajo e ngritjes së dy varrezave të ushtarëve grekë- thanë përfaqësuesit e shoqatës-nuk do të jenë kurrë të mjaftueshme nëse nuk ka një zgjidhje të plotë për cështjen Came nga ana e shtetit fqinj. Greqia duhet të ratfikojë konventat për minoritetet thanë protestuesit si dhe të aprovojë edhe ligjin për konservimin e pronave. Shoqata “Çamëria” pak ditë më parë iu drejtua ambasadës greke në Tiranë me një letër ku kërkonte të zhvillonet takim me kryeministrin Karamanlis, gjatë kohës që ai do të qëndronte në Tiranë, por mesa duket ky takim nuk do të realizohet. “ Meqë ky takim nuk u bë i mundur atëherë po jua themi nga ky shesh cfarë donim të bisedonim me kryeministrin. Ne besojmë se na ardhur koha të nisë procesi i diskutimeve ndërqeveritare për zgjidhjen e cështjes came mes Shqipërisë dhe Greqisë. Gjykojmë se zgjidhja e cështjes came i shërben pikërisht forcimit të frymës së miqësisë mes dy vendeve, në të kundërt nuk mund të pretendohet kurrsesi për marëdhënie të mira kur mes dy vendeve mbeten ende cështje të pasgjidhura” thanë përfaqësuesit e protestuesve. Tahir Muhedini ka kërkuar shpesh që për çështjen çame, që është një fakt historik, të respektohen të gjitha standardet europiane, ashtu siç bëhen edhe për komunitete të tjera. Ai kërkon gjithashtu dhe nga Bashkimi Europian, që të mos ketë dy standarde sa i takon trajtimit të komuniteteve, duke i kërkuar shtetit shqiptar respektimin e të drejtave të minoriteteve, ndërsa po ky shtet nuk ka fuqi që ta kërkojë një gjë të tillë ndaj kombësve të tij. (s.g/e.n/BalkanWeb) They make many good points, particularly over the issue between the imbalance between give/take between the two countries, and how Albania seems to only be giving and giving without any reciprocation from Greece.
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Post by Kassandros on Apr 30, 2009 16:36:09 GMT -5
Redbaron "Individuals are asking for the land for wich they have documents from the greek state that proves they own it." A lot of these people have documents from the Greek government. Same documents the average greek has to claim his land." ------------------------------------------------------- Nobody doubts it .We know these people have documents. We also know that Germans from Polland (a huge minority!!) have documents for Polish land too. After the war.. they lost that right! That is what we say here. If your actions create pain to people in you country... you loose that right to have land. Even for Greeks who cooperate with the enemy during wartimes, there is a law that says "They loose their property in Greece. It is confiscated from the Greek state." For Greeks!! Also to remind you... after the war.. many Greeks cooperators were found hanging from trees. Greeks!!
"Albania as a state was not allied to Italy or Germany ( you know this so you can stop B$-ing). It was in fact occupied by them. So as the war was over we were on the winning side since there were no more Germans or Italians in Albania, occupation was over. Albania as a state was not in war with Greece. The Germans and Italians were." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You're wrong again! In wartimes... giving your land to an enemy... makes you an enemy too!! Try to understand that. There is no neutrality when somobody uses your land... to attack a county! That country has EVERY RIGHT to defent even if that defend means to invade in that "neutral" country for a certain period so as to attack the invaders. Also, dont forget that Albanians has formed MILITARY units in help of the Nazis. Thats enough to attack these people.
"What you are intentionally trying to say is something like this, I'm making an analogy here. Since the Ottomans came to Albania and attacked us through Greece, then Greece was at war with us, even though Greece itself was occupied by the Ottomans. That is a very naive argument" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Greece gives without a fight its land to Ottomans and also... if Greek citizens of Albania... had formed military units... in cooperation with Ottoman forces... attacked albanian forces... automatically you have EVERY right to defend your country against these Greeks... even if that counterattack takes you inside Greece. You have to get that. Its very crusial to every future discussion. Its not only something that Greeks did... Its an international norm during wars.
PS. I'll give you an example of this way of attacks. The bombers of 9/11... were some individuals. Al Kaida... are some individuals. The goverenment of Aphganistans never attacked US. The government of Pakistans never attacked US. BUT... since that organization has bases inside their countries..... US had EVERY right according to UN to attack in this countries!!
On the other hand... UN didnt gave its permission to US to attack Iraq. That was illegal. US was not on defence in this case.
Do you see the differences now?
In other words... if you decide to host Turkish ships in an Albanian harbor today... and Greece and Turkey start a war... then Greece has EVERY RIGHT to attack Albania regardless if Albanian citizens are innoccent or not. ! If you get that.. you get the whole picture.
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Apr 30, 2009 17:06:54 GMT -5
I got a simple solution how about we give the Chams all the lands in Himara and send anyone claiming Greek nationality packing to their motherland. It's only 65 years too late but better late than never.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 30, 2009 19:38:37 GMT -5
TAMAM!!!
I would advocate outright slaughter as revenge for the crimes they committed against the Albanian population in 1912-20. Hak!!!
Their day will come eventually. Maybe not in blood as we Albanians want it, but in otherways. but I think eventually their day will come.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 1, 2009 3:22:34 GMT -5
And what are they protesting for then? It can hardly be for sth good....if I hate a country...independendly from if I have the right to go there back or not...I will hardly want to return to there...except...I want to commit riots again.
And the question is. What are the Chams calling for after all? A new Napoleon Zervas?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 1, 2009 7:17:54 GMT -5
They're calling for justice.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 1, 2009 9:32:41 GMT -5
You have an inverted idea of justice if you believe that its entitled to public enemies and murderers.
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Post by ErmirI on May 1, 2009 9:36:05 GMT -5
Which public enemies/murderers?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 1, 2009 9:49:35 GMT -5
You have an inverted idea of justice if you believe that its entitled to public enemies and murderers. And you're twisted if you sincerely believe an entire populace can be blamed for the acts of a minority, especially considering that a majority of Chams were passively opposed fascism or even took part in the anti-fascist movement actively, either in the ranks of the Albanian partisan brigades or in ELAS.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 1, 2009 10:48:47 GMT -5
Who is writing such things, me or you?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 1, 2009 11:08:39 GMT -5
What, their justified contempt for a state that has abused, mistreated, massacred and displaced them, makes them criminals? Is that what you're suggesting ... ?
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Post by ErmirI on May 1, 2009 11:31:20 GMT -5
They are not alone. Most of the Greek minority in Abania suffered the same destiny, given they were communists, and to this day they can't get Greek citinzenship and get humiliated in the border points by the Greek pigs just becuase they have Albanian passport. Not even their kids who were born in Greece these 18 years have the chance to become Greek citizens.
No wonder Greeks in South Albania are self-Albanizing fast. Only songs to the UCK are missing, but soon....
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Post by Kastorianos on May 1, 2009 16:58:11 GMT -5
All Germans of todays Poland and the Czech Republic were expelled as well back then....and not all of them were Nazis... On the other hand many of them sympathized with the Nazis seing in them liberators. But all of them paid the price of expulsion and none is doubting the rightness of this event today.
Exactly the same can be said about the Chams. Most of them sympathized with the Nazis (no matter for what reasons)...all of them were expelled. It is totally obvious and without doubt that there were Cham rebells-that were supported by their people- that collaborated with the Nazis when the Greek state was in highest danger. This widespread support of the Germans did totally shatter the trust of both peoples. Thus the expulsion was, independendly from how bitter it was for particular individuals ...overall justified.
Keep also in mind that after their collaboration with the Germans they would never ever again be able to live a normal life without extreme discrimination and pressure coming from the Greek people against them.
Next to that...if other nazi-collaborating groups were treated this way... and if none does question it...there cannot go anything else for the Chams...
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Post by Kassandros on May 1, 2009 18:33:22 GMT -5
ErmirI "... by the Greek pigs just becuase they have Albanian passport. Not even their kids who were born in Greece these 18 years have the chance to become Greek citizens. "Only songs to the UCK are missing, but soon...." ------------------------------------------------------------------- take a look at your post... take a look at the post of the turkalbanians.... and answer in real; If you were Greek... would you give a Greek citizenship to them?! Come on dude.. you're a Greek hater... you're dreaming of UCK in Greece... and you blaim Greeks for not giving the Greek citizenship? In the beggining I was among the first who believed that Albanians born in Greece MUST have the Greek citizenship. After I start wonderting around forums... and after I saw the infuence of Turkalbanians over Albanians.... I have some doubts... Ged rid of that Ottoman past... become real Albanians... and then we can discuss...
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Post by Teuta1975 on May 1, 2009 21:27:21 GMT -5
But we are overall Albanians...what does TurkoAlvanos term have to do with anything? We never mentioned it...where do you see "TurkoAlvanos" Basil? In which part of which post?
As per Chams, we keep listening to crimes committed by Chams against Greeks and as a result they took revenge attacking an entire population...always, but always forgetting to mention why did Chams act that way! Can you Basil assume one simple reason why did Chams fight against Greeks? I expect a good answer..
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Post by Kassandros on May 2, 2009 4:36:51 GMT -5
Teuta "But we are overall Albanians...what does TurkoAlvanos term have to do with anything? We never mentioned it...where do you see "TurkoAlvanos" Basil? In which part of which post?" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No you're not overall Albanians. Albanians were a friendly nation leaving peacefully side by side with Epirots and Macedonians (except some sheeps & horse thefts ) and never were in the enemies list for Greeks. Turkalbanians is a new kind of Albanians formed after Ottoman and Commounist eras and is exaclty the opposite. There is no need to see it written. We know. "As per Chams, we keep listening to crimes committed by Chams against Greeks and as a result they took revenge attacking an entire population...always, but always forgetting to mention why did Chams act that way! Can you Basil assume one simple reason why did Chams fight against Greeks? I expect a good answer.. " --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dont you believe that German citizens of Poland and Chezchslovakia... had their own rightfull reasons to be with the side of Germany in WW2? That does not justify them. They were citizens of a different coutnry!! not of Germany! I'm sure Roma in Greece dont feel assimilated in the Greek society. They must feel somehow a second class citizens. Does that gives them the right in a future war of Greece with... India lets say.... Roma to become allies of Indians and start attacking their Greek fellow citizens?! Before you answer have something in mind; You have a Greek minority.... that Greek minority feels they dont have their minority rights the last 50 years. They feel bad for that. They have their own reasons.. right or wrong. Thats not the point. Now...Imagine during the Kossovo war... members of these minority... forming military groups.... and going to Kossovo to help Serbian forces against Albanian forces. Even more.. imagine Serbs winning the war.. and occupy the whole of Albania... and that Greek minority start pointing fingers in members of the Albanian commounity in Himmara..... and Serbs start hanging these members as gorillas. Tell me now... what would be the outcome for the Greek minority after the end of war when Albania would be free again? Try to imagine...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on May 2, 2009 5:37:26 GMT -5
If you think that this event isn't questioned at all from a moral aspect, you're deluded. Or perhaps you're seeing it from the Czech perspective?
BS. You can never prove most of them "sympathized with the Nazis" -- if this was true, how come more Chams took part in the anti-fascist brigades of Albania and Greece than they did in fascist military units?
You're sincerely more brainwashed than I thought. How would you describe the treatment of the Chams prior to World War Two? Humane and civilised? Proper? The very reason why some elements in the Cham society collaborated with the Nazis was due to the despicable treatment they received by the Greeks and the Greek government before the invasion of Greece in WWII. Greece was going to cleanse them from Epirus either way ... the "collaborationist" card was merely used as an excuse. This much is obvious to anyone with half a brain and a dose of decency.
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Post by ErmirI on May 2, 2009 6:32:52 GMT -5
ErmirI "... by the Greek pigs just becuase they have Albanian passport. Not even their kids who were born in Greece these 18 years have the chance to become Greek citizens. "Only songs to the UCK are missing, but soon...." ------------------------------------------------------------------- take a look at your post... take a look at the post of the turkalbanians.... and answer in real; If you were Greek... would you give a Greek citizenship to them?! Come on dude.. you're a Greek hater... you're dreaming of UCK in Greece... and you blaim Greeks for not giving the Greek citizenship? In the beggining I was among the first who believed that Albanians born in Greece MUST have the Greek citizenship. After I start wonderting around forums... and after I saw the infuence of Turkalbanians over Albanians.... I have some doubts... Ged rid of that Ottoman past... become real Albanians... and then we can discuss... Trollos I am a cham and none in family would ever want a stinking Greek citinzenship. You ahev no idea what chams want, how could you, you are too busy boasting how you are a true Macedon despite your Turkish second name. You couldn't face the part about the Greek minority people hating you but went into insulting. You are a miserable troll. Period. Keep showing your miserable character in balkaninsight too. ps: It's so nice going into villages of the Greek minority and after asking them in Greek they prefer responding in Albanian. What you won through ethnic cleansing we're winning through exemplary humanity. Donnie, you forgot one thing, that the orthodox members of my father's parent were not cleansed. You can't win a debate with these pathetic orthoturks.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 2, 2009 6:41:42 GMT -5
Clearly from the German perspective. Because in contrast to you they are a people with discretion. Only Neo-nazis make claims that Chams make, too.
You can never prove.....I dont have to prove anything...its a fact that the Chams sympathized with the Germans. You yourself are saying that they hated Greece even back then...stop contradicting yourself just in order to be right after all whereas its obvious that you arent.
To be honest they were discriminated because they clearly deserved to be treated like that. They converted to Islam once in order to benefit from that...they had the most and best fields from all....at the expense of the Christian majority..and were the "Turks" of western Epirus, means the executive authority of this region. Western Epirus didnt ever have Turks, their Turks were the Chams. But they were not less oppressing than the real Turks. I believe they got what they deserved....the thought that my greatgrandfathers got land from expelled Chams for ridiculous prices just satifys me. They simply paid for the malicious behaviour of their forefathers. Its clearly not our fault...we just changed the roles...all of a sudden we stopped being victims and they stopped being committers. I feel its like total justice.
Instead of making claims...their descendants should apologize for the sins of their forefathers. But where shall this besa come from...surely not from Albanians.
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Post by Kassandros on May 2, 2009 11:51:01 GMT -5
ErmirI "Trollos I am a cham and none in family would ever want a stinking Greek citinzenship. You ahev no idea what chams want, how could you, ." -------------------------------------------------------- Ahhh... so you're one more Muslim Nazi that his forfathers killed people and stole their land during WW2 and during Ottoman occupation? I'm shocked! I couldnt predicted it! So gentle figure of the Albanian forum... couldnt be something different. lol lol lol Muslim Albanian, Kossovar or Chams! It starts becoming so easy... lol lol One more Turkalbanian... Listen Tourko.. I know very well what Chams want. All the privileges they used to have during WW2 and Ottoman years. LAND! And they believe that now that Bush is still around... they will have the chance to do what always did; ally with a big power with guns to grab land from Greeks. That is how they raised generations after generations. Ally with the big boy... fu.ck your neighbor. "..despite your Turkish second name" ----------------------------------------------- Turkish.. with 2 syllables only? "You couldn't face the part about the Greek minority people hating you but went into insulting." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyze it a little bit because I cannot get the point... You are a miserable troll. Period. Keep showing your miserable character in balkaninsight too." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not only in balkanisight... but in many Turkish newspapers and many English newspapers. I have to admitt that I have a lot of free time from my job the last year.. "ps: It's so nice going into villages of the Greek minority and after asking them in Greek they prefer responding in Albanian. What you won through ethnic cleansing we're winning through exemplary humanity." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maybe they... fear Chams like you that is why they avoid Greek language? Now get real. If they didnt like their Greek origins... they wouldnt vote for Bollano who is far-fetched even for me.. "Donnie, you forgot one thing, that the orthodox members of my father's parent were not cleansed. You can't win a debate with these pathetic orthoturks." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe because they showed some respect to their Greek fellow-citizens and didnt wear hoodies and pointing fingers for the Germans so as to execute the Greek villagers and grab their land... ? Have you thought of that?
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