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Post by SKORIC on May 13, 2009 10:34:15 GMT -5
I looked briefly and couldnt find anything on it and am pretty lazy too lol but found these quotes instead that i thought id share for no real reason..
"I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria." —During his trial in 1914.
"I am the son of peasants and I know what is happening in the villages. That is why I wanted to take revenge, and I regret nothing."
"I am not a criminal, for I destroyed a bad man. I thought I was right." —Princip after he performed his assassination
"No I am not sorry. I have cleared evil out of the way" —Princip during his trial
"There is no need to carry me to another prison. My life is already ebbing away. I suggest that you nail me to a cross and burn me alive. My flaming body will be a torch to light my people on their path to freedom." —Princip to the prison governor on being moved to another prison
"Our shadows will be walking through Vienna, strolling through the court, frightening lords." —Found engraved on the wall of Princip's prison cell after his death
"If I hadn't done it the Germans would have found another excuse." —Supposedly his last words.
So if a Serb soldier found out the english were behind it he'd desert even if the Austrians were going to invade anyway? Doubt it.
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Post by fazlinho on May 13, 2009 11:47:26 GMT -5
You could first read my post carefully next time, as I was talking about Russians as you can see by mine and illyria's posts, as you know Germany never invaded Serbia so I couldn't be talking about Serbs, I also couldn't be talking about the whole Allies as ultimately they whooped central powers asses so again I was talking about Russians only who are the only allied power who lost the war against AH and Germans.
I didn't say a word about Austrian massacres, which obviously make me sick.
Serbia rejected the ultimatum because they had the support of Russia, a war against AH was in their interests to get control of suth slav peoples as in those times pan-slavism was high. I do continue to believe Serbia had more reasons to go to war than Austria did, which would only be harmed by incorporating Serbia into it's borders, which would make Slavs outnumber hungarians in numbers.
Serbia is the other country.
... I haven't heard even in the doco about churches, nor about destroying every house nor church, just some. What austrian authorities did is not our business though. It doesn't justify it, it's to say yes in those times it was normal to do it if you see your Emperor killed. Was it stupid and barbaric? yes. When Serbs entered in Belgrade they levelled every mosque.
I doubt it.
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Post by SKORIC on May 13, 2009 12:23:31 GMT -5
Ah my bad then. You were talking about both Serbs and Russians so it wasnt clear to me. Germans sent reinforcements to the Austrians in 1915 so i thought you were talking about that. The Serbs puppets of Serbia? Ok then Watch from 1:05 till 1:25 in the first video. It said "everyone and everything Serbian, Serbian shops, schools and churches smashed and looted" etc etc. I said houses instead of schools but thats even worse lol You do realise the ultimatum was pretty much annexing Serbia into its borders in all but name? Allowing Austrian-Hungarian troops free access everywhere. No country would accept that even without the backing of powerfull allies.
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Post by soko on May 13, 2009 13:58:30 GMT -5
.. nope. but if he found out that as in most wars the leadership and higher officers were having sex whilst he was risking his life, and that men just the same as him were on the other side, and they all got wasted whilst the elite had a good time... this goes for 90% of wars...
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Post by aaayyy on May 13, 2009 18:10:34 GMT -5
fazlinho (and others),
Why do you think Serbia had less rights for Bosnia than AH (in 1878 for example)?
After taking Bosnia, AH tried to direct Serbian politicians toward Macedonia (as some kind of compensation for Bosnia), pushing them to conflict with Bulgaria. Thus destabilization of Balkans...
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Post by aaayyy on May 13, 2009 18:17:21 GMT -5
soko,
Your thoughts were exactly Russian Bolsheviks' position during WWI and those ideas were very progressive. Unfortunately such agitation failed to stop WWI though it had great influence on people all over the world.
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Post by aaayyy on May 13, 2009 18:23:32 GMT -5
fazlinho,
Russia had to agree to give Bosnia to AH to keep it neutral during Russian-Turkish for liberation of Slavs from Ottomans. (and the majority of Slavs did see that war as a war for their liberation).
Otherwise Russians would have had to fight against not only Turkey, but also AH and probably England, which we couldn't do.
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Post by aaayyy on May 13, 2009 18:29:33 GMT -5
It was. A lot of AH Slavs didn't like their second-sorted status in AH and newly born Serbian state was a source of inspiration for them.
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Post by tito on May 13, 2009 18:32:39 GMT -5
fazlinho (and others), Why do you think Serbia had less rights for Bosnia than AH (in 1878 for example)? Serbia had no right at all, Austria on the other hand settled the issue with the Ottoman empire. Also Austria never abolished Bosnias autonomy, the Bosniak national identity or the Bosnian language. Austria only took parts of Bosnia, Sandzak was left out and is now split between Montenegro and Serbia. AH tried to direct Serbian politicians toward Macedonia (as some kind of compensation for Bosnia), pushing them to conflict with Bulgaria. Thus destabilization of Balkans... LOL, no one could push Serbia into a conflict with another country if it had stayed inside it’s own borders. Serbian expansionists seem to think that Serbia had a right to move outside it’s modern borders(settled in 1878) and that is exactly what lead to destabilization just like it does today.
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Post by aaayyy on May 13, 2009 18:34:11 GMT -5
fazlinho,
It doesn't contradict to my statement. AH gave prosperity to Bosnia, but its ethnic politics wasn't balanced it played people of different ethnicities against each other.
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Post by aaayyy on May 13, 2009 19:03:30 GMT -5
tito,
Do you mean AH bought Bosnia from Ottomans? (BTW I've never heard before that AH payed to Ottomans for Bosnia) Thus the major (that time) ethnic/religion group in Bosnia - Bosnian Serbs were bought by one Empire to which they didn't want to belong from another Empire to which they didn't want to belong either...
BTW when Southern Slav uprising for liberation started in 1876 (well, all South Slavs with the exception of Bosniaks saw it as such ) Russia tried to convince European powers to settle the issue with Ottomans somehow in favor of Southern Slavs. European powers refused to do it and encouraged Turks not to give in to Slavs demands. Russia had to go to war against Ottomans (and leading European countries which helped Ottomans a lot) and pay with blood for South Slavs liberation. Then AH came and took the lands which it hadn't liberated and which major ethnic group opposed to AH occupation.
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Post by tito on May 13, 2009 19:37:15 GMT -5
the major (that time) ethnic/religion group in Bosnia - Bosnian Serbs were bought by one Empire to which they didn't want to belong from another Empire to which they didn't want to belong either... The so called "serbs" in Bosnia where a minority that hardly owned any land, they where free to move out like everyone else so no one was forcing them to be part of either of the two empires. They chose to stay in Bosnia and if it wasn’t for Serbia’s fanatic ideals of expanding it’s borders the Balkans would have stayed stable. Still today it is Serbian expansionism that is the main destabilizing factor in the Balkans.
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Post by aaayyy on May 13, 2009 19:55:44 GMT -5
They were the largest ethnic group that time. Then who i your opinion owned Bosnia land?
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Post by tito on May 13, 2009 20:13:18 GMT -5
They were the largest ethnic group that time. Not at all, you are confusing religion with ethnicity. Then who i your opinion owned Bosnia land? My opinion is totally irrelevant to the historic fact that the orthodox christians(who you choose to label as somehow "serbs") did not own almost any lands in Bosnia. It was the agrarian reforms in Yugoslavia that gave them Bosnian lands that had never before belonged to them.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on May 13, 2009 20:47:28 GMT -5
Not at all, you are confusing religion with ethnicity. You're confusing Bosnian with ethnicity.
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Post by fazlinho on May 14, 2009 4:27:03 GMT -5
fazlinho (and others), Why do you think Serbia had less rights for Bosnia than AH (in 1878 for example)? After taking Bosnia, AH tried to direct Serbian politicians toward Macedonia (as some kind of compensation for Bosnia), pushing them to conflict with Bulgaria. Thus destabilization of Balkans... I don't see how it had any right at all considering: 1) Bosnia was legal ownership of the Ottoman Empire and they legally gave it to AH in the Congress of Berlin, no matter the reasons, it was an agreement, a legal international agreement. 2)The majority of Bosnia's citizens were favouring AH instead of Serbia 3)Land wise, the majority of land was Bosniak owned: Conducted in 1910 by Austro-Hungary. Percentages land ownership: * Muslim Bosniaks owning 91.1% * Orthodox Serbs owning 6% * Catholic Croats owning 2.6% * others owned 0.3% I don't see why on earth Serbia had any claims towards Bosnia. No problems with that, they still agreed on it, no matter the reasons. While the great majority favoured AH over Serbia at any time. If there were such strong sentiments for an union with Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia could have revolted against their AH "oppressors" (lol) at any time in ww1, they instead chose to fight for AH and never deserted. Hell even a lot of the Orthodox population was in the AH army and if you read some first hand witnesses you'll see how they were proud to fight for the Emperor and the AH Empire. tito, Thus the major (that time) ethnic/religion group in Bosnia - Bosnian Serbs were bought by one Empire to which they didn't want to belong from another Empire to which they didn't want to belong either... But the majority of the people did, or at least favoured it against Serbia at any time. Bosnia was never a part of Russian wars, sure Russia indeed played a big part in the history of Bulgaria, Moldavia and Serbia but it didn't do anything as for Bosnia, because Russia was never seen as a liberator by the majority of people anyways. In no treaty that Russia did with the Ottoman empire Bosnia is ever mentioned. What Austria did was a perfectly legal agreement. And I don't care much about other Slav states who generally managed to bring only wars to Bosnia, what to other orthodox slavs was a liberation with the total levelling of mosques in such cities and the expulsion of muslims, couldn't possibly be seen as a a liberation in Bosnia. Considering catholics also were reluctant in being incorporated in orthodox states, those are the reasons why Bosnia can't and indeed is never a part of those "wars of liberation" by orthodox slav states. The only major war of liberation seen in Bosnia can be considered the great bosnian uprising, which was led by Bosniaks. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bosnian_uprising
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on May 14, 2009 4:30:59 GMT -5
Exalt, we have found our second comedian at this forum!!!
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Post by fazlinho on May 14, 2009 4:34:12 GMT -5
^ You being the first I suppose.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on May 14, 2009 4:40:04 GMT -5
If you actually read my posts you will understand who was the first...
You just have no idea do you, you write things here which are very large statements (not just you personal opinion) without citing a source. Because what you write is well not factual, no onder there's no source.
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Post by fazlinho on May 14, 2009 4:41:46 GMT -5
It is indeed because I read your posts that I think you are the first.
What exactly isn't true of what I wrote? Please point it out. All my statements are based on historical facts, if mine are different than yours, point them out.
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