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Post by soko on Apr 23, 2009 7:52:50 GMT -5
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paja
Membrum
Posts: 193
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Post by paja on Apr 23, 2009 9:09:29 GMT -5
Some funny excerpts:
Lol. Come on now...............................
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 23, 2009 11:45:09 GMT -5
Actually, what tito is saying is mostly right. One of the chief reasons why the Turks beat out the Balkan principalities was that they became accustomed to fighting as mercenaries under Balkan leaders and learned how to fight them. Moreover, it became commonplace for Balkan lords to call upon the Sultan to support them against another lord. Look at the history of Epirus and you see a common theme. Serbs also regularly called upon the Turks to help them against a rival...
The Byzantines themselves started the whole process...
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Apr 23, 2009 11:52:49 GMT -5
lol at everyone claiming the bosniaks rofl
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paja
Membrum
Posts: 193
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Post by paja on Apr 23, 2009 11:56:37 GMT -5
No one likes them yet everyone wants them.
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Apr 23, 2009 12:00:06 GMT -5
Exactly. haha
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 23, 2009 13:04:11 GMT -5
Some funny excerpts: Lol. Come on now............................... You're right. Those 2,000,000 probably wouldn't exist either.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Apr 23, 2009 21:00:16 GMT -5
Orthodoxy is almost as new to Bosnian soil (minus Hercegovina) as Islam is, esp. when quantatively speaking. Oh yeah just minus Hercegovina. Just minus a quarter of the present borders. I already told you not to underplay it and you did it again. Hercegovina was central to the development of Serbdom. You're straight up contradicting yourself with that statement saying it's almost as new as Islam in Bosnia. Oh yeah except for Hercegovina cough cough. Any pseudo-Christian existence in Bosnia has far more to do with Orthodoxy then the disgusting force of Islam anyway.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Apr 23, 2009 21:03:44 GMT -5
Hypothetically, imagine the Turks never invaded the Balkans. Obviously it would be a much more peaceful place, but what would the present day borders look like? What else would be of the Balkans, it’s people and its culture? Would the Hapsburg Empire have asserted more control? No doubt this would have been better. Just imagine the Balkans without the devastating, divisive and culturally destructive effect of islamicization for one thing. I’ve no doubt the place would be so much better. The Turks actually Never "invaded" the Balkans, they where INVITED by the local Balkan rulers who where always at war with each other before the Ottomans liberated the Balkans. PS. The only positive thing I can imagine in a scenario where the Ottomans didn’t liberate the Balkans is that there would be no Orthodox people west of the Drina river and that Dalmatia would still be a part of the Bosnian state. Turks. Islam. Turks & Islam = biggest insult to Serbdom.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Apr 23, 2009 21:12:49 GMT -5
Fair enough, I'll rephrase. Speaking about how good it would be if Islam never entered the Balkans is as constructive and smart as speculating about how it would have been if the Slavs never invaded the Balkans, in which scenario Serbia wouldn't of existed like today and it wouldn't have been able to wage war against its neighbours. See, two can play your game. Start the topic. Nothing wrong with it. Only you Albanians always get stuck with fantasies about slavic hordes reigning in destruction on Albanians even though slavs lived side by side with all the little tribes they came across. You take the perspective that there were sky scrapers and a massive homogenous Illyrian civilization in place that was overun by slavic hordes without producing a shred of evidence.
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MiG
Amicus
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Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Apr 23, 2009 21:17:59 GMT -5
Man we certainly overran them all. Look at us, we can still overrun them.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Apr 23, 2009 21:42:37 GMT -5
Well, honestly speaking, I am not an expert on Bosnia (neither are you it seems), but references to Serbdom in Bosnian documents might have been a political step to claim legitimacy to the Serbian throne, or at the very least, lands in Serbia? And Hercegovina of the Middle Age shouldn't be thought of in the same terms as today. The Orthodox element of the time was largely Vlach. The Ottomans, you see, taxed Vlachs with a special tax known as rusim-i eflak, consisting of a sheep and a lamb on St George's day every year. This enables us to estimate the number of Vlachs in the late fifteenth century Hercegovina, which was around 35,000, a huge number for a scarcely inhabited and arid region like Hercegovina in the Middle Age. And in the Smederevo region south of Belgrade, there were around 85,000 Vlach households in the sixteenth century; they would comprise the main group of immigrant Vlachs in Bosnia. Well let me tell you about it then. There are a number of sources on the internet (Bosniak & Serbian mainly & some Croat interpretations) on the charters of the Bosnian bans and kings you can look up. The Bosnian sources emphasise one main thing to support Bosnian ethnicity in Bosnia and these are the references to the term Bosnjanin. Bosnia was not an ethnic derived term in the first place unlike Serbia and Croatia. Croats and obviously Serbs dispute this as an ethnic term mainly as it's in the context of the Bosnian church. Serbs on the other hand use several references to Serbian language, Serbs (Srbljem), religion, Serbian names & Serbian genealogy on these charters to support the Serbian ethnicity in Bosnia which is really much stronger than any Bosniak perspective I’ve seen on them. Bosniak’s for instance have made up a language in hindsight called Bosancica despite the fact these charters actually specifically say that they are using Serbian language. Croats have f**k all to support Croat ethnicity except that the people were supposedly good Catholics despite all the references to Bosnjanin & Srbljem, Serbian languaguage, Serbian names & Serbian genealogy etc. On Vlachs, these charters often have specific reference to Vlachs as a separate group whom I would describe primarily as Romanized natives (Illyrians even). The Decani Charter in Kosovo has statistics that record a less than 10% representation of Vlachs and less than 5% Arbanasi. Vlachs are just as much Serbian as Slavic Serbs.
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Post by srbobran on Apr 23, 2009 21:47:58 GMT -5
What if Slavs never invaded the Balkans? Well, we couldn't call ourselves Serbs and we wouldn't speak a Slavic tongue. Thats about it.
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Post by Novus Dis on Apr 23, 2009 22:05:55 GMT -5
We're not Illyrians or Vlachs!
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Post by zgembo on Apr 24, 2009 0:01:45 GMT -5
What if Slavs never invaded the Balkans? Well, we couldn't call ourselves Serbs and we wouldn't speak a Slavic tongue. Thats about it. Slavs didn't invade, they were actually invited by Byzantium to populate deserted lands. And unlike what Muslims and Albanians will have you believe, Turks weren't invited. They steadily invaded and conquered Byzantium, and then used divide and conquer tactics to expand further. There's a key distinction there, but I don't expect to convince ones whom it doesn't suit. Arsenije, neznam sto komunicaras sa tim Siptarom uopste. Njegove znanje se sastoji od dve procitane (memorisane) knjige najveceg Engleskog Srbofoba, Noel Malcolma. Samo je sposoban da ponavlja sta je taj rekao. Nezna nista drugo. Samo trosis svoje vreme.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 24, 2009 0:18:33 GMT -5
The Turks didnt incite the warlords of the Balkans to fight one another, they called on them to come and help. The wars were a general aspect of the end result of the collapse of Byzantine power, the holes were filled in by rival potentates, including Byzantine successor states (such as Despotate of Epirus and Nicaea). If you want a good example of this in action, read the work The Despotate of Epiros by Nicol. He studies only one region, but what happened there was occurring on a larger scale in the Balkans in general. And yes, the Turks were initially called in for help. With time they were able to keep control of given areas. This is the very thing proposed in The Late Medieval Balkans by John VA Fine
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Apr 24, 2009 7:55:56 GMT -5
Arsenije
Maybe the whole issue of the Bosnian Serb identity is a little emotional for you, so let's skip that talk since you're probably going to stick to your opinion either way. Just answer this; if Orthodoxy is such a successive key to peace and economic prosperity, how the fvck do you explain the misery that is Russia? And the suffering it has inflicted on its non-Christian as well as Christian neighbours, even to one another ... in Russia where the serfs made up nearly fifty per cent of Russia's peasantry well into the nineteenth century.
To blame everything on the Turks and Islam for your own ineptitude of developing normal sane relations with your neighbours is just an easy way out.
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Post by soko on Apr 24, 2009 8:23:35 GMT -5
lol @ serbdom... lol @ obsession with turks and islam "my cat died, if it hadn't been for the fact that 300 years ago my family was oppressed by a turk feudal lord rather then a serb one, my cat would be living happily now" religion sure has given you a lot of success.. oh, thats right, when you began to care about history and pseudo history and religion, you became third world... unfortunately we are third world as well, so I shouldn't laugh
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Post by tito on Apr 24, 2009 8:48:59 GMT -5
Islam = biggest insult to Serbdom. Here is another one: Required fertility rate for a population to maintain itself: 2.11 children per women. With anything less then 2.11 children per women the population will decline. Historically no population has ever reversed a 1.9 fertility rate. A rate of 1.3 is impossible to reverse because it would take 80-100 years to correct itself and there is no economic model that can sustain a culture during that time! Total fertility rate of Serbia with Sandzak and Presheva in 2007: 1.4 webrzs.statserb.sr.gov.yu/axd/en/drugastrana.php?Sifra=0013&izbor=odel&tab=20
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Post by SKORIC on Apr 24, 2009 9:08:13 GMT -5
If Turks never invaded the balkans this thread would be called "What if Turks invaded the balkans?"
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