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Post by manijak on Nov 20, 2008 14:29:25 GMT -5
I wanted to start a thread based on some posts in the Nubia thread.
I think this forum, more than others, is a great example of people trying to desperately hold on to what they are or maybe were. I believe people are more extreme on this forum because they think if they accept how things are in BIH, Serbia, they will stop caring. And if they stop caring, they will change. And you know what? That is not wrong.
I remember when we first came to Canada, my parents would almost be angry if I joked that now they were "Canadian". But today, they don't care, and they almost accept it. They pretty much accept this as their home. They have opportunity, its a stable situation, and they have everything they could pretty much want. So why wouldn't they feel that way?
For me, this is the saddest part in all of this. Not just for Bosniaks, but for Serbs and Croats too. I have met Serbs here and Macedonians and a lot of the people from our area, and they see this as their home now, and they see a lot of good and different reasons as why not to go back.
There is going to be a lot of people, especially young people, that we will lose from that area forever, because people want to continue with the political games and rhetoric. For me, that is sad, because I still see a future for myself back home, but who knows how long I have till I just say, why the hell would I want to go back?
And when you realize that this whole situation is pretty much about that, you should stop and think. The fact that most of us are not living in BIH, the fact that most of us will never live in Bosnia, Serbia, or Croatia, EVER again, no matter what you hope in the future, makes us in a sense traitors.
So, when people look back at history, Serb history, Bosnian history, the displaced, people who had to leave, through no fault of their own, will be looked at as traitors, because they did the "easy" thing. Many of us will be those people, when in theory, if this forum is any indication, we care for our ethnicities a lot, and put in a lot of time talking about how much we love our people.
That tells you what you need to know about Bosniaks, and us being alleged "traitors" during Ottoman times. People made different decisions, just like different people always do. Not better, not more intelligent, but different.
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Post by bog on Nov 20, 2008 14:37:25 GMT -5
Mate, I am not sure what you wanted to say. If you think that people here are nationalistic, so that they can feel that they still belong to exyu, then you are right. But on the other hand exyu is filled with nationalists, and they live there...
I do not see my self down there, I do not see exyu ever again normal in any sense of the word.. If you do, congrats, you are more of an optimist then I am...
Anyways, if all the people that live outside of exyu were to return, the place would suffer a break down, and social change, seen as the money from abroad would stop coming in, and seen as you would have more people to feed...
I think you should specify more what you meant with this thread, but i am guessing you are right.
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Post by manijak on Nov 20, 2008 14:43:11 GMT -5
Mate, I am not sure what you wanted to say. If you think that people here are nationalistic, so that they can feel that they still belong to exyu, then you are right. But on the other hand exyu is filled with nationalists, and they live there... That is exactly what I'm saying. Huge difference being that in the diaspora we see the "other" side, we get the ideal life without the arguments. We have a good standard of life, we have jobs, we have our own homes, we feel comfortable, safe, etc. We are part-time nationalists. While people are nationalistic back home, that is the only thing they have ever seen. But generally, the point is, that many of us will never go back, even though we hope. And those people, when you look back at history 50yrs from now, will in a sense be traitors in Serbian, Bosnia, Croat history books. They will say that they chose the 'easy' way and things like that.
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Post by bog on Nov 20, 2008 14:45:40 GMT -5
Mate, I am not sure what you wanted to say. If you think that people here are nationalistic, so that they can feel that they still belong to exyu, then you are right. But on the other hand exyu is filled with nationalists, and they live there... That is exactly what I'm saying. Huge difference being that in the diaspora we see the "other" side, we get the ideal life without the arguments. We have a good standard of life, we have jobs, we have our own homes, we feel comfortable, safe, etc. We are part-time nationalists. While people are nationalistic back home, that is the only thing they have ever seen. But generally, the point is, that many of us will never go back, even though we hope. And those people, when you look back at history 50yrs from now, will in a sense be traitors in Serbian, Bosnia, Croat history books. They will say that they chose the 'easy' way and things like that. In a way you are right, but what do you suggest we do about it, most poeple in exyu support the nationalists, and they have been in power for the last 20 years, our leaders are open criminals, have led us into meaningless wars, and most still support them. Why would anyone want to go back? and seen as that is the will of the majority of exyu poeples, there is not much you can do about it... Unless you have a cunning plan
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Nov 20, 2008 14:50:36 GMT -5
You're not a traitor manijak, you did what was best for you and your family, why would you stay in a country with almost 50% unemployment and no good outlook for the future? It's not like we sold our souls to become something we are not, just just took a better opportunity to make our lives better and no one gave that to us, we saught that.
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Post by manijak on Nov 20, 2008 14:55:28 GMT -5
Bosnians in Bosnia being nationalistic is not surprising. That will pass as time goes on. I mean if my parents were back home, they had great friends there, was a tight community, loads of family, they would stand up for our people and fight like everyone who is there is doing so now. That is the only thing they knew. The point is though, we got to leave, just like a lot of people, and now we have seen a totally new life, new people, new standards, new angle, better standard of life. And that without a doubt changes you.
So, point being, Serbs especially like to talk about Bosniaks being traitors due to the decision many made when the Ottomans took over. But this is quiet similar really. War displaced people, and now many will decide that its just better, easier, to live in Canada, US, Europe than Bosnia. And they will be lost forever. And as the Serb, Bosnian, history books get written, in a sense, these people will be traitors too.
So, all of us, who are not living in BIH are traitors in a sense.
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Post by manijak on Nov 20, 2008 15:03:45 GMT -5
You're not a traitor manijak, you did what was best for you and your family, why would you stay in a country with almost 50% unemployment and no good outlook for the future? It's not like we sold our souls to become something we are not, just just took a better opportunity to make our lives better and no one gave that to us, we saught that. Not saying I am, just based on how other people would define it, we all would be. I'm saying, that based on how people look at things in this forum generally, ALL of us, who are not living in BIH, Serbia, Croatia, or wherever, ARE. But I personally don't agree with that because I've never thought that I was a traitor for my ancestors choosing Islam over Christianity either. People had choices and they made them. But overall, I don't agree with it because I don't think people making decisions about their life, family, which goes beyond country, nationalism, is being a traitor. I care very deeply about my roots, and I hope I can keep them to the point that I can actually live in my country. But sadly, lot of people won't.
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Post by tito on Nov 20, 2008 15:12:06 GMT -5
You're not a traitor manijak Yes he is, izrod nacije, majku li mu cetnicku! ;D
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Post by manijak on Nov 20, 2008 15:13:14 GMT -5
Tito
Where do you live again? Sweden?
Yeah, i thought so.
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Post by tito on Nov 20, 2008 15:15:24 GMT -5
Tito Where do you live again? Sweden? Yeah, i thought so. It does not matter where I live, this topic is about your mental problems, izrode!
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Post by zgembo on Nov 20, 2008 15:38:52 GMT -5
I can totally relate to what you are trying to say, manijak. Shortly after we came to Canada, I don't think it took longer than a couple of years, but my sister and I started speaking English to each other and with my parents. We all noticed it and decided we wouldn't utter another word of English amongst us so as to preserve the language. I especially cling to that identity, more so than my parents. My mom especially feels more Canadian than any one of us (and she always tells me "bez para nisi nikom dobar", "nemoze se zivjeti od patriotizma", etc. etc.). I can totally understand why we left the country and I would never regret the decision. A part of me would regret living here for the rest of my life, raising kids who don't speak the language and just getting assimilated. A part of me wonders if it even matters (I know my judgment is clouded living here and that so many people back home, who live to survive, would think I'm idiotic for entertaining these thoughts). Hundreds of years from now many nations will fade into obscurity, the world will become one big country and we will all be citizens of it. Who knows? It's a tough choice to make.
As far as feeling like a traitor, that's just bullshit. And again I'll repeat what I hear from my parents LOL (betray what country? the one that gave you corrupt leaders and war? the one that emptied your savings accounts? they betrayed you first!). Alternatively, you can listen to Johnny Stulic's (lead singer of Azra) thoughts on the matter:
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Post by bog on Nov 20, 2008 15:54:08 GMT -5
that was slovenia if exyu ever becomes normal, something that it will not, they will look at us who left for the west, as the serbs in 1800 looked at the muslims of belgrade... but it will not become normal, so we are in the clear...
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Post by fazlinho on Nov 20, 2008 16:09:15 GMT -5
I am the first one to say only an IDIOT would return to Bosnia.
Although, if I only had 50% of the pay I'd have in Italy I'd return there, and if that happens, I will. Simply because I do Sarajevo as MY city. Most of you people live in Aussieland, USA, Canada... or northern countries. I live in Italy, we use to go to Bosnia just for 3-4 days sometimes. And I love it down there, especially the life (obviously for people who have money). I am not saying I'd return at any price - not a chance, but if certain criterias are met I might. Everything is possible. Point being, I don't blame anyone for not returning, actually I feel dumb for wanting that.
A ti tito, nemoj biti seljacina. It's the XXI century already. I greatly respect manijak for even thinking of returning in that hole of cavemen. I highly suggest you not to bro, you'd just get shit and hate the country, and the people.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Nov 20, 2008 16:10:43 GMT -5
Manijak I could go on about a few points you made but I won't. Good lukc with your dreams and aspirations! Your roots are important as I feel the same as you on that one.
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Post by kapetan on Nov 20, 2008 16:10:46 GMT -5
Well everyone seems to agree with you, but I won't. Because for me i didn't go that way and I've been living abroad for 10 years. We all know English, but we all speak Bosnian including my little sister who was born here. And we raise her in our culture not Canadian (whatever that is), and we don't call oursevles Canadian, unless it's "Canadian citizen" and we have to in order to take advantage of something. Sure we've changed to adapt to this place, of course, you have to, but identity wise no.
The point you made comparing it to Bosnians becoming Ottomans doesn't really work. Bosnians converted to Islam cuz it wasn't a big deal. Christianity never had a strong foothold in Bosnia, this has been proven again and again, and people practised whatever folk type of belifs they had. And when Islam came they saw an opportunity and were smart to take it. Nothing much changed for them except a few more holidays with different names. Same thing in Albania. Christianity simply sucked there and it was easy to switch. Being "Ottoman" isn't wasn't ethnic identity anyway. More like a title for us if nothing else.
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Post by manijak on Nov 20, 2008 16:12:18 GMT -5
Good post zgembo
The thing about it is, we are all proud of our ethnicity, as we should be. I am proud to be Bosniak, but the issue is that nationalists are making it seem that: I have to be poor, I can't have any rights, and I should have few opportunities.
Many of these extreme nations, who are nationalistic, are usually very poor nations, have horrible human rights records, and their people have very little opportunity. (ie North Korea, Iraq) The fashion in which they sell the ethnicity, is not on its uniquness, the special culture they have, music, language, customs, humor, which is what it really should be about. Instead, they sell it based on controlling the people, not giving people rights, stealing peoples money, so people basically can't compare their miserable life to any other place.
That is not what it should be about.
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Post by manijak on Nov 20, 2008 16:19:39 GMT -5
Well everyone seems to agree with you, but I won't. Because for me i didn't go that way and I've been living abroad for 10 years. We all know English, but we all speak Bosnian including my little sister who was born here. And we raise her in our culture not Canadian (whatever that is), and we don't call oursevles Canadian, unless it's "Canadian citizen" and we have to in order to take advantage of something. Sure we've changed to adapt to this place, of course, you have to, but identity wise no. I think you miss the point. Nobody is calling themselves Canadian here, either. And everyone feels more Bosnian still. But as time goes, you can see less and less of a problem reffering to them as Canadian (which is surprising for my parents..since you couldn't say that 8yrs ago for example) And if this goes much longer, I don't see why they would not continue in that fashion. Bosnia right now is just not an option for them. I am still young, so maybe there will be time for me, if I decide to put up with the mess, but for them, they are getting old.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Nov 20, 2008 16:23:51 GMT -5
^^^How old r u? That's what they all say; they will go back, many left 30-40 years ago and they are still here :-) Apart from a select few that had the guts and hope to go back. When you make a new life in a new country and have all of your family there would on earth would you want to leave?
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Bozur
Amicus
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Post by Bozur on Nov 20, 2008 16:50:13 GMT -5
Manijak has made many good points.
People who will remain long term in western country are bound to have their kids, grand kids or some other generation assimilated into whatever group is dominant in a given country.
Case and point that I have encountered many times people from former Yugoslavia who were by origin Serbs, Croats or Bosniaks.
Take the same individual and dig further in their ancestry and one might see that their grandfather or grandmother was something else (in some cases even western in origin such as German, French etc). Meaning they lost initial identity and adapted a new one.
In individualistic western culture where it is extremely easy to 'loose' oneself such assimilation become that much easier to occur.
How many have you meet or heard of Petar that is known only by Peter now or Ante that is only known as Anthony now. Hell in some cases firsta nd last name are fully western.
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Post by manijak on Nov 20, 2008 17:01:50 GMT -5
Tito
You are not funny. My father was in a concentration camp run by Cetniks so I don't find that subject funny at all.
You are a BIG Bosniak, we get it.
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