CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
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Post by CiKoLa on May 1, 2008 0:15:02 GMT -5
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
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Post by MiG on May 1, 2008 2:11:39 GMT -5
General Zivota Panic had a plan to move into Croatia and advance onto Zagreb, but it was never carried out, as the JNA would receive too much international attention.
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Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
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Post by Fender on May 1, 2008 6:53:07 GMT -5
General Zivota Panic had a plan to move into Croatia and advance onto Zagreb, but it was never carried out, as the JNA would receive too much international attention. This is not the same thing that I was talking about. Actually two completely different set of circumstances and to mix the two would be to deny history. What you have shown here MiG is the contingency plan the JNA were about to use because there was a leadership vacumm in the Federal Parliament. When that happens, The JNA has only the constitution to guide it. The consitution gave the army the power to protect the Yugoslav borders. There were still elements of Croatian generals in the JNA at that time. What happened in Vukovar was the end rewult where the vacumm could no longer be breached and rogue elements sprang into being. As I said two different scenarios. Do your research Cikola as you continue to fail dismally every time.
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MiG
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Republika
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Post by MiG on May 1, 2008 11:56:41 GMT -5
^ There was Ante Markovic. The Army had to, by federal law (Constitutionally), listen to him and take orders from the man, but they chose to choose their nationalist leaders over a united Yugoslavia. From 1990 and on, it was all free game and fair play.
When the Slovenes started their uprisings, Gen. Aleksandrovic (The main General of the JNA in Slovenia and the TO), chose to leave to Belgrade, even when there was JNA soldiers still stuck in their Barracks all around Slovenia. Why did he do that? Was it not his duty to stay there and protect the Sovereignity of Yugoslavia from External and Internal threats, as per the Constitution?
Back to Ante Markovic. Jovic, Milosevic, and even Tudjman, blocked his attempts to gain any respect, or recognition amongst the people of Yugoslavia. When he created his own Party (Savez Reformskih Snaga), Whatever was left of the SKJ, which was the rising stars of Nationalism, dismantled his programme by a sheer campaign of propaganda.
This is what Jovic had to say about the man:
They branded him a traitor, and the Army blindly took that to heart, and even though he was the Prime Minister, and acted in the will of the Yugoslav People and Nation.
As for the plan of the offensive onto Croatia, it was made by Milosevic, Jovic, and top JNA General (Although it was awarded as Zivota Panic's Plan). By this time, it was all nationalist forces, and they had already stirred the pot in RSK, and they were starting to break away from Croatia. This was not a contingency plan, because there was nothing to contain at all. By this time, it was already too late. Greater Serbia plan was already in effect, as all the parameters were met (Propaganda, Arms Embargo, "Saving Yugoslavia" in the eyes of the International community).
Croatia was on the verge of invasion, and they saw that the West didn't want major action, and thats one of the few, and the biggest if not maybe the only, reason Croatia wasn't outright invaded.
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niquetamere
Amicus
Ancient Bosnian Serbatron
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Post by niquetamere on May 1, 2008 16:04:21 GMT -5
Mig.. why bother? Fender is pro-Serb and no real Croat.
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Post by terroreign on May 1, 2008 16:38:52 GMT -5
Fender would rather have a serbian zagreb then an independent croatia
Sad what being brainwashed does to you, children killing their parents!
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Post by vinjak on May 1, 2008 17:31:50 GMT -5
Why do you people constantly attack a member when they have a different point of view to yours ? argue the points dont freakin attack and accuse ...oh I know its easier to just mindlessly attack rather than debate.
And terror stop jumping on bandwagons its quite sickening I know you have more intelligence than you display here.
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
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Post by MiG on May 1, 2008 17:40:16 GMT -5
Mig.. why bother? Fender is pro-Serb and no real Croat. He's still a Croat, but a very Patriotic Yugoslav. He's no Conservative Nationalist Croat, he's a Liberal Leftist Yugoslav Croat. There is no problem with that at all, but downplaying the importance of the war and the real situation isn't, well, sort of fair. I just don't like to outright insult him when I argue, because he's a person too. Sure he's wrong in our eyes, and the majorities eyes, but he puts up great arguments sometimes. So if I think he's wrong or a little misleading, I'll put in my 2 cents, back them up with facts and sources, and let it go at that. I can't change someones mind, rarely anybody can, but his opinion is his opinion, just like yours and mine, and no matter what we are arguing about, there will always be biases. Fender's a good guy, but I don't judge his personality on his opinion.
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Post by vinjak on May 1, 2008 17:46:49 GMT -5
Bravo Mig....well said.
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Post by terroreign on May 1, 2008 19:05:29 GMT -5
Yes I agree MiG that was nicely said, and I'm sorry if I insulted you fender.
Furthermore, vinyak I might have less knowledge about the war between the JNA and the Croatians, perhaps you can explain this to me.
Why were the battles fought in the republic of Croatia? Who was agressor/defender?
I just dont see how anyone can defend the JNA for what they did...its not like the Croats were attempting to take land that wasn't part of their republic during Yugoslav times...
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CiKoLa
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Gotovina Heroj!
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Post by CiKoLa on May 1, 2008 21:30:28 GMT -5
Eh, kak bi se sad neki 'pojedinci' izvlacili .. al nije ti uspjelo.
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Post by vinjak on May 1, 2008 23:00:19 GMT -5
Furthermore, vinyak I might have less knowledge about the war between the JNA and the Croatians, perhaps you can explain this to me.
Terror my comment was not about your knowledge it was about you jumping on the bandwagon regarding Fender.
I just dont see how anyone can defend the JNA for what they did...its not like the Croats were attempting to take land that wasn't part of their republic during Yugoslav times...
You are confusing the JNA action and the Croatian Serbs actions
The JNA acted acording to the constitution and where engaged to secure the Jugoslavian borders before recognition of Croatia.
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CiKoLa
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Gotovina Heroj!
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Post by CiKoLa on May 1, 2008 23:19:46 GMT -5
did that include demolishing Vukovar to the ground and committing one of the world worst war crimes since WW2?
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Post by vinjak on May 1, 2008 23:26:00 GMT -5
I think you do realize that the JNA was fully equipt with heavy weapons not feather dusters, the defenders engaged a fully equipt army. Not only that but the U insignias of some didnt help either. Snipe from a building and the building will be leveled The JNA was not the proffesional army of today where a few can take out the same sniper with a surgical strike it was a crude broadsword not a scalpel.
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
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Post by CiKoLa on May 1, 2008 23:38:40 GMT -5
^^ it didnt help them in the end thou.
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Post by vinjak on May 1, 2008 23:45:19 GMT -5
They where ordered to pull back Dude you seriosly cannot tell me that without international pressure, the confusion on the ground,missinformation orders not getting through to the commanders etc that the JNA would not have achieved its goals.
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
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Post by CiKoLa on May 2, 2008 0:20:36 GMT -5
^^ hypotheticals nothing more ...
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Post by Zvone on May 2, 2008 7:22:29 GMT -5
Sad when you think that most of this war was fought in BiH and Croatia, but not Serbia. Tells you who the offenders were.
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Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
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Post by Fender on May 2, 2008 8:42:14 GMT -5
Eh, kak bi se sad neki 'pojedinci' izvlacili .. al nije ti uspjelo. I understood what you wrote but not the context of its meaning. What exactly are you trying to say?
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Fender
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Post by Fender on May 2, 2008 8:46:29 GMT -5
I had forgotten about Markovic but I don't recall anywhere in the books I've read that the JNA initially went with their nationalist leaders. After an extended period yes but not at the moment Jugoslavija began to fracture.
I'm uncertain as to how much Markovic had power over the Army?
Thats the first time I've heard that Markovic was that badly vilified by Jovic. I had immense respect for Markovic as he did a brilliant job at curbing inflation in 1989-1990. He was a true politician that cared about the people, not his own back pocket.
I had known that he tried to start up his own political party and I believe he was the best placed politician to allow Croatia a much smother transition from the break up.
Must find that book again.
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