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Post by vinjak on Sept 5, 2009 1:36:35 GMT -5
"Umrete Siptari" ... at the Manastir's pazar Pfft definitely not written by a Serb.... it should read Umrite Siptari and no Serb would write that, if it was a Serb it would read "UBI SIPTARA" this was done by your own
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Post by shejtani on Sept 5, 2009 2:36:37 GMT -5
"Umrete Siptari" ... at the Manastir's pazar Pfft definitely not written by a Serb.... it should read Umrite Siptari and no Serb would write that, if it was a Serb it would read "UBI SIPTARA" this was done by your own actually Manastir/Bitola is in Macedonia ...
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Post by terroreign on Sept 5, 2009 5:08:17 GMT -5
^Except in the 7th century onwards when it was the capital of Dioclea. You're suggesting uninterrupted continuity since the 7th century? The Serbs/Montenegrins/whatever of Vraka came in the 18th century, fugitives of a blood feud in Montenegro. Some of these later settled in Shkoder ... but overall they're quite few. Oh, and then there's also a number of Muslim Slav families from Podgorica who fled in the 1870s to escape Montenegrin opression. But they hardly see themselves as 'Serbs' ... and they too are very few in numbers. Whatever medieval 'Serb' settlements existed in Shkoder and its vicinity, they got lost along the way a long time before the Serb fugitives settled Vrake. The point is that there has always been slavs in that region, ie. since Duklja The people of Vraka are split between Montenegrins and Serbs, which is why their cultural society was originally called: Serbians-Montenegrins of Albania (or something to that extent) There is a small community of Muslim Montenegrins in Shkoder, their association is called Albamontenegro and not only has Muslim members but Orthodox as well. Their president is Burhan Culic.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 5, 2009 9:46:21 GMT -5
You're suggesting uninterrupted continuity since the 7th century? The Serbs/Montenegrins/whatever of Vraka came in the 18th century, fugitives of a blood feud in Montenegro. Some of these later settled in Shkoder ... but overall they're quite few. Oh, and then there's also a number of Muslim Slav families from Podgorica who fled in the 1870s to escape Montenegrin opression. But they hardly see themselves as 'Serbs' ... and they too are very few in numbers. Whatever medieval 'Serb' settlements existed in Shkoder and its vicinity, they got lost along the way a long time before the Serb fugitives settled Vrake. The point is that there has always been slavs in that region, ie. since Duklja The people of Vraka are split between Montenegrins and Serbs, which is why their cultural society was originally called: Serbians-Montenegrins of Albania (or something to that extent) There is a small community of Muslim Montenegrins in Shkoder, their association is called Albamontenegro and not only has Muslim members but Orthodox as well. Their president is Burhan Culic. Again, if you're trying to say there's a continuity of Slav presence since the 7th century, you're wrong. The people of Vraka are recent fugitives of a bloodfeud. Understand? They don't descend from local Slavs who invaded the plains in the 700s. And the Muslim Slavs are recent refugees, so called muhajirs, who fled Montenegrin opression and Austro-Hungarian conquest in the 1870s, some perhaps as recent as 1912. If you have proof of the contrary, please provide, would be interesting to see.
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Post by srbobran on Sept 5, 2009 10:57:35 GMT -5
I don't see how its ANY different than what you guys are claiming in Kosovo. You came during the Ottoman times, it certainly wasn't a continuous presence in Kosovo either yet you still claim it as your land.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Sept 5, 2009 11:19:54 GMT -5
Istorijat
Problematika i pravci integrisanja srpsko-crnogorske nacionalne manjine u Albaniji
Uvod
Srpsko-Crnogorska nacionalna manjina tokom protekle decenije bila je subjekt nepravdi državnih struktura tog vremena, čije su institucionalne represivne mere dovele do diskriminacije i pokušaja asimilacije manjine. Politika represije i asimilacije počinje sa režimom kralja Zoga, koji je zatvorio sve postojeće škole na srpskom jeziku i nastavila sa komunističkim režimom koji je zabranio izjašnjavanje po nacionalnoj pripadnosti za srpsko-crnogorsku manjinu, zabranio korišćenje imena i naročito karakterističnih prezimena koji su se završavali na –ić, oduzeo pravo na obrazovanje i informisanje na maternjem srpskom jeziku, zabranio održavanje kontakata sa matičnom državom, pravo na slobodu veroispovesti itd.
Geografski položaj srpsko-crnogorske manjine u Albaniji
Istorija postojanja srpsko-crnogorske manjine datira iz ranijeg srednjeg veka. Ova manjina je uglavnom koncentrisana u gradovima Skadar, Koplik, u selima Komune Gruemira: Vraka, Omaraj, Gril, Veliki Borič, Mali Borič, Kamica, Stari Štoj i Novi Štoj, Dobrač, Golem, Mušan, Bušat itd. Takođe, živi i u okruzima Leža, Drač, Tirana, Elbasan, Libražd, Fier u selima Rreth Libovša i Hamil, Korča, Berat itd. Prema našim podacima, analizama i posmatranjima, broj pripadnika srpsko-crnogorske manjine je oko 30.000 stanovnika.
Kratak istorijski pogled
Tokom istorije njenog postojanja na ovim prostorima, srpsko-crnogorska manjina je suživela sa većinskim stanovništvom u duhu bratstva, mira, etničke i verske tolerancije služeći kao primer za ceo balkanski region. Nikad se nije predala pred nepravdom i sačuvala je maternji jezik, kulturu i običaje. Totalitarni režimi Ahmeta Zogua i Envera Hodže upotrebili su svu institucionalnu moć za asimilaciju i dezintegrisanje ove manjine, oduzevši njenim pripadnicima najelementarnija i prirodna prava koja im pripadaju: - U matičnim knjigama je izbrisana prvobitna srpsko-crnogorska nacionalnost i njihova nacionalnost je definisana kao albanska; - 1934. godine zatvorena je i poslednja škola na srpskom jeziku. I dan danas u Albaniji ne postoji nijedan oblik obrazovanja na srpskom jeziku za pripadnike naše manjine; - Pripadnici naše manjine su bili prisiljeni da zamene njihova karakteristična porodična imena i prezimena albanskim imenima i prezimenima koja su, po svom značenju, ponižavajuća, kao što su npr.: Druri (Drvo), Arra (Orah), Guri (Kamen), Hekuri (Gvožđe), Qershia (Trešnja), Dritarja (Prozor) itd. - Roditelji novorođenčadi, pripadnici naše manjine, bili su prisiljeni da deci daju albanska imena, iz već pripremljenog spiska albanskih imena koji je bio napravljen od strane državnih organa tog vremena; - Uništavanjem verskih objekata vezanih za vekovnu kulturu srpsko-crnogorske manjine i njihovim pretvaranjem u objekte zadnjeg reda, omogućen je kontinuitet politike asimilacije albanske države prema našoj manjini.
AKTUELNO STANJE
Nacionalni Identitet
Od strane albanskog komunističkog režima, pripadnicima naše manjine je oduzeto pravo upisa nacionalnosti u matičnim knjigama rođenih kao i pravo nošenja njihovih tradicionalnih imena i prezimena. Sa druge strane, pozitivni albanski propisi predviđaju da se promena nacionalnosti obavlja samo na osnovu odluke suda, stvarajući presedan zakonskog sukoba između jednog domaćeg zakonskog akta i odredaba Okvirne konvencije Saveta Evrope "o zaštiti nacionalnih manjina" koja je potpisana i ratifikovana od strane albanske države, konkretno člana 3. te konvencije, gde se izričito spominje: "Svako lice koje pripada jednoj nacionalnoj manjini ima pravo da slobodno odlučuje da li hoće da se tretira kao takvo".
Što se tiče povraćaja starih i tradicionalnih, silom oduzetih, imena i prezimena, pripadnicima koji su bili prisiljeni da se odriču tih imena i prezimena, u poslednje vreme je dato pravo da u kancelarijama službi za vođenje matičnih knjiga, putem jednostavne procedure, učine zahtev za njihovu promenu. www.moraca-rozafa.org/onama/istorijat.html
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 5, 2009 15:18:22 GMT -5
I don't see how its ANY different than what you guys are claiming in Kosovo. You came during the Ottoman times, it certainly wasn't a continuous presence in Kosovo either yet you still claim it as your land. Wrong, and not only because Kosova is well over ninety per cent Albanian inhabited and the Serb presence in Albania totally insignificiant .... we also had a continuous presence in Kosova. Serbian charters in the 11th and 12th centuies document the presence of Albanians in villages and pastoral settlements. Other documents mention our presence in towns, such as Novo Brdo in 1455, in the works of Michael Lukarevic from Dubrovnik. There is no question that our presence there preceeded the Ottoman conquest. What the Ottoman presence did result in was a switch in the demographic balance, making us the majority. But that doesn't mean we didn't have a continuous presence in Kosova; we did, and thus your analogy is wrong. A better paralell would be Bosnia and Krajina, where the Serbs became a significiant minority and majority in many parts in territories previously inhabited by Catholics and Muslims only during the Ottoman period. Infact even this paralell is flawed, because you don't have a continuous presence of Serbs in Bosnia and Krajina, rather this element was pretty recent/new. There are very few/scarce references to Orthodox monasteries in Bosnia, let alone Krajina, during the Middle Ages. Depopulation as a result of wars paved the way for an influx of Orthodox Vlachs and Slavs, so called martolosi, who changed the ethnic balance tremendously ... these Orthodox people would later self-identify as 'Serbs' in the 20th century after previously having been known simply as hriscani (Christians) or vlasi (Vlachs).
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 6, 2009 0:01:43 GMT -5
^ Dude you are lying again about Bosnia. Did you even read that last link I replied to you with? There were always Serbs in Bosnia. And especially through present day Hercegovina. There's also plenty of reasons to believe that the main ethnicity in Bosnia was Serbian. It's massively questionable that Bosnian could have even been considered an ethnicity at any stage. It certainly isn't today. And for the most part Vlach did not even have an ethnic meaning. For the most part this is purely Croatian & Bosnian propaganda. Bosnian Serbs & Bosniaks share practically the same genetics for a start. Initially Vlach meant Romance speaker & they were to be found everywhere. Later it had the meaning of shepard & that's what most Serbs were when they moved to north west Bosnia & Croatia. There were less than 10% Vlachs in Kosovo in the 13th century. You think it was any different in the rest of Raska were most Serbs moved from to north west Bosnia? In modern times Serbs are still in the greater majority farmers in Bosnia. But Bosniak as an ethnicity is just bullshit. Most Bosnian Kings took the title "King of Serbs..." and they certainly did not come even close to ruling most Serbian lands. They said in ink they spoke Serbian, not Bosnian language anywhere ever! or Croatian. They referred to their genealogy as Serbian. Externally as early as the 9th century (DAI) the only ethnicity represented through present day Hercegovina and the initial Bosnia was Serbian. Bosnia is Serbian land. The Muslims have a completely manufactured identity. Without Islam it would not exist.
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Post by shejtani on Sept 6, 2009 5:10:36 GMT -5
actually, even in Kosovo itself, very few Serbs descend from the Serbs who lived there in the 14th century ... because in Balkans, the populations move a lot ! Lot of Serbs who live today in Kosovo came there in the 18th and 19 th century from Macedonia and Montenegro.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 6, 2009 7:58:03 GMT -5
^ Dude you are lying again about Bosnia. Did you even read that last link I replied to you with? There were always Serbs in Bosnia. And especially through present day Hercegovina. There's also plenty of reasons to believe that the main ethnicity in Bosnia was Serbian. It's massively questionable that Bosnian could have even been considered an ethnicity at any stage. It certainly isn't today. And for the most part Vlach did not even have an ethnic meaning. For the most part this is purely Croatian & Bosnian propaganda. Bosnian Serbs & Bosniaks share practically the same genetics for a start. Initially Vlach meant Romance speaker & they were to be found everywhere. Later it had the meaning of shepard & that's what most Serbs were when they moved to north west Bosnia & Croatia. There were less than 10% Vlachs in Kosovo in the 13th century. You think it was any different in the rest of Raska were most Serbs moved from to north west Bosnia? In modern times Serbs are still in the greater majority farmers in Bosnia. But Bosniak as an ethnicity is just bulls**t. Most Bosnian Kings took the title "King of Serbs..." and they certainly did not come even close to ruling most Serbian lands. They said in ink they spoke Serbian, not Bosnian language anywhere ever! or Croatian. They referred to their genealogy as Serbian. Externally as early as the 9th century (DAI) the only ethnicity represented through present day Hercegovina and the initial Bosnia was Serbian. Bosnia is Serbian land. The Muslims have a completely manufactured identity. Without Islam it would not exist. I wasn't referring to Herzegovina which I am aware of was predominantly Orthodox during the middle age. But the Orthodox people of Hercegovina weren't all Slavs, a significiant deal of them were Vlachs,. Turkish registers allows us to estimate their numbers, since the Ottomans taxed the Vlachs with a special tax known as rusum-i eflak, "the Vlach tax". By the end of the fifteenth century, there were atleast 35,000 Vlachs in Hercegovina, and in the sixteenth century as many as over 82,000 Vlach households. This is an enormous figure for a barren land as Hercegovina where the population has always been smaller and scarcer than elsewhere, and where even today it consists of half a million people. As for Bosnia; as I've said earlier, if anything, it was culturally, religiously and politically closer to Croatia than Serbia. Its inhabitants are best described simply as 'Slavs' and not as Serbs, since the Serbian national consciousness was barely developed back then and religion played a more important role than a vague concept of ethnicity. The Bosnian monarchs supposedly designating themselves as "Serbs" could very well have been a political move to gain legitimacy in their quest to extend and expand their power over adjacent regions in the east and south. I doubt we're dealing with some sentimental identification with a Serbian "race" and "nation", but rather the will to win support for their ambitions to widen their influence. The closeness of Bosnia with Croatia rather than Serbia is further strengthened by Ottoman sources. I'm not advocating a Croatian identity of Bosnia, since as I said, the medieval Bosnians are best described as simply Slavs or Bosnians. But still, it is rather obvious they were closer in many respects to the Croats than they were to the Serbs, atleast in the eyes of outsiders. One Marco Pigafetta for instance wrote that "Croatian" is understood by "almost all official Turks, especially military men". This is interesting because Christians weren't given high positions in the Ottoman administration. And of the peoples of former Yugoslavia, it is the Bosnians who are of the Islamic faith. These were in all probability Bosnians Pigafetta wrote of, and he is identifying their speech as "Croatian" .... don't you find that interesting?
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Sept 6, 2009 11:01:33 GMT -5
You make very little sense as a lot of what you say is contradictory. You say it was predominantly Orthodox yet you say it was culturally, "religiously" & politically closer to Croatia? They are two definite opposites. A lot of what you say is mumbo jumbo. Look, you have a strength in language but you've shown over time that this dominates over substance. That last paragraph I'm confused as anything… For language it’s like this. In the middle ages there are charters that specifically refer to Croatian language & Serbian language. The only referral to language in any Bosnian document is to Serbian language. As a matter of linguistic debate for the most part Stokavian, as opposed to the Croatian Kajkavian & Cakavian is considered Serbian. For ethnicity the Bosnian King specifically referred to his Serbian heritage, not Croatian or Bosnian even though he could have. He specifically had the title “King of Serbs…” in his title. This was removed when Croatia (the other ethnicity) was specifically included in his title! In the 9th century (very early days) the DAI identifies the ethnicity through Dalmatia & in the smaller sized Bosnia as Serbian... You say it's best described as slavic rather than Serbian. I think the very nucleus of Bosnia in the small area of it's initial size is best described as just slavic. Outside this sphere & also somewhat within it due to the above I would describe it as mostly Serbian. Definately there was also a Croatian presence & that is seen in the geneology of the leaders but they still only refer to their Serbian heritage, not Croatian... Every second post, you refer to "sources" but you hardly ever say what they are. Like when I asked you to detail Albanians changing their names to Serbian names you came up with fa of substance. I think you & Novi are on a similar wavelength. You are both into reading interpretations & then regurgitating them but the main thing I'm concerned with on this boards & the way history I believe is promoted academically these days is always pure hard evidence. Things like Bosnian charters & documents of the time. I’d encourage you to go with this if you want your own interpretations taken seriously.
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Post by fazlinho on Sept 6, 2009 14:00:58 GMT -5
Donnie I'm glad there's another outsider with no connections to Bosnia who mostly shares our views (like the hungarian on this forum did) about Bosnia's and Bosniak history. I made my reply in the Bosnian forum to nearly everything arsenije posted here, it's in English now so you can read it too. illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bosniahercegovina&action=display&thread=26373&page=1Really I'm quite happy to see that outsiders like you, the hungarian (hell I can't remember his name, he is like the only one here on the forum, not wbb lol) mostly agree with us.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 6, 2009 17:52:48 GMT -5
Lol. Who go ahead and look for them... you wont find more than 2000 Shkjas in Albania. The Slavs in Durres are all Muslim and do not identify with Serbs in any way (in fact, most of them settled in durres while fleeing the Austrian control in Bosnia). Durres is where they are centralized, 10,000 Slavic speaking Muslims (of whom only few can speak Slavic)... they maintain relations with Bosnia, not Serbia. Furthermore, they selfdeclare themselves as Albanians, not minority. In the Korca area, the Slavs declare themselves Macedonian-Bulgarian, not Serb. They have their own party in Albania. The number of Slavs in Fier and Elbasan do not go over 100 at most and there they are Muslim as well... all Albanian speaking today. In Albania, Serbs are practically nonexistent. And a reminder for you Aadmin, look at my quote below. As for Shkoder. In the early 1900s the city had only 2 kinds of places of worship: Catholic Churches and Mosques. The city was devoid of Orthodog centers. There were no churches until very recently in the post communist period. And even today the churches serve mostly Orthodox Christian Albanians who moved to Shkoder during the Communist period... liturgy is in Albanian only. 'Serb center' in Durres: lajme.parajsa.com/Shqiperia/id_65831/
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 6, 2009 18:46:43 GMT -5
You're suggesting uninterrupted continuity since the 7th century? The Serbs/Montenegrins/whatever of Vraka came in the 18th century, fugitives of a blood feud in Montenegro. Some of these later settled in Shkoder ... but overall they're quite few. Oh, and then there's also a number of Muslim Slav families from Podgorica who fled in the 1870s to escape Montenegrin opression. But they hardly see themselves as 'Serbs' ... and they too are very few in numbers. Whatever medieval 'Serb' settlements existed in Shkoder and its vicinity, they got lost along the way a long time before the Serb fugitives settled Vrake. The point is that there has always been slavs in that region, ie. since Duklja The people of Vraka are split between Montenegrins and Serbs, which is why their cultural society was originally called: Serbians-Montenegrins of Albania (or something to that extent) There is a small community of Muslim Montenegrins in Shkoder, their association is called Albamontenegro and not only has Muslim members but Orthodox as well. Their president is Burhan Culic. Podgoricans = Slavic Muslims in Shkoder who identify with Montenegro. Most have been relocated to Montenegro since the 90s. During the Milosevic era they were placed in Kosova from Montenegrobut were kicked out after the war and now live mostly in Montenegro today. They will not be welcomed into Shkoder if they dare ever to return...
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Post by terroreign on Sept 6, 2009 23:43:46 GMT -5
There has been a Slavic presense in Shkoder since the 5th century, how continuous it was I cannot say. But it's clearer than the history of albanians that's for sure.
The people of Vraka are indeed recent fugitives of a bloodfeud, but you can't claim that there weren't slavs in that area before they arrived. For example the Busatlija family from Shkoder descend from the Crnojevic family, who were slavs.
The muslim slavs may have came to Shkoder in the late 1800's, as the majority of them do trace their origin to Podgorica and other Montenegrin towns, but that does not mean there weren't muslim slavs in Shkoder before them, as there definitely was. Shkoder was never traditionally homogenous by any means.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 6, 2009 23:46:26 GMT -5
The point is that there has always been slavs in that region, ie. since Duklja The people of Vraka are split between Montenegrins and Serbs, which is why their cultural society was originally called: Serbians-Montenegrins of Albania (or something to that extent) There is a small community of Muslim Montenegrins in Shkoder, their association is called Albamontenegro and not only has Muslim members but Orthodox as well. Their president is Burhan Culic. Podgoricans = Slavic Muslims in Shkoder who identify with Montenegro. Most have been relocated to Montenegro since the 90s. During the Milosevic era they were placed in Kosova from Montenegro but were kicked out after the war and now live mostly in Montenegro today. They will not be welcomed into Shkoder if they dare ever to return... From a recent poll 2000 people register themselves as ethnic Montenegrins in Albania, the majority still live in Shkoder. Good day.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 7, 2009 0:21:59 GMT -5
Arsenije wrote; You misread what I wrote, read again. I said Bosnia (excluding Herzegovina) was closer in all those respects to Croatia. Whereas Herzegovina, on the other hand, was predominantly Orthodox, and a considerable number of these were de facto Vlachs. What reference was there made to the Serbian language? Well we're not discussing Croats but Bosnia, and to my understanding Stokavian is also the version spoken by Bosniaks, not to mention alot of Croats. You seem sufficiently confused on your own issue to not use language as an argument in this regard, since some consider Torlak to be the "original" Serb dialect, even though gramatically it is reminiscent of Bulgarian, while others prefer Vuk Karadzic's Eastern-Herzegovina based dialect and grammar. Go figure ... Dusan also styled himself "king of Greeks", for obvious political reasons. Doesn't mean he was Greek. Now, nobody is contesting that King Tvrtko had Serbian blood in him, mixed ethnic marriages were common as a mean to forge political alliances. But it seems funny that Tvrtko needs to mention his genealogy in order to prove his Serbian blood. The very need to specify their Serbian identity, shows that the Bosnian kings weren't ethnic Serbs ... why repeat the obvious? Because it wasn't obvious. Hence the reference to his genealogy; Tvrtko used proof to show he wasn't just a Bosnian, but that he also had royal Serb blood flowing in his veins, and consequently, he had a legitimate claim to lands in Serbia. As I read your thread in the Bosnian subforum, it also read (from Tvrtko's own charter); " I idoh v` srbskuju zemlju" or " I ventured into Serb lands ..." -- if Bosnia was Serbian land, and Tvrtko a Serbian king, why did he venture into 'Serb' lands? He is in other words differentiating between Serb and Bosnian lands! Oh, yes about that. How about this as a proof; Astrit Ajdarevic? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrit_Ajdarevi%C4%87He is an Albanian football player with roots in Kosova and Presheva/'Presevo'. His father Agim Ajdarevic played for Spartak Suboticain the '80s & '90s. Their real surname should read Hajdari, but Serbs benevolently changed it to Ajdarevic.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 7, 2009 0:27:41 GMT -5
Donnie I'm glad there's another outsider with no connections to Bosnia who mostly shares our views (like the hungarian on this forum did) about Bosnia's and Bosniak history. I made my reply in the Bosnian forum to nearly everything arsenije posted here, it's in English now so you can read it too. illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bosniahercegovina&action=display&thread=26373&page=1Really I'm quite happy to see that outsiders like you, the hungarian (hell I can't remember his name, he is like the only one here on the forum, not wbb lol) mostly agree with us. I think you meant yeniceri, he is Hungarian. And yes, I agree with your stance because there's no real substance to the claims of the Serbs. The 'proof' they see in Tvrtko's charters only really proves the contrary. Because Bosnia was not Serbian land and because Tvrtko was not considered a Serb king, he needed to prove through his genealogy that he did have Serb blood too, and self-styled him as king of the Serbs as well. An obvious political move to anyone who can see beyond the modern nationalist propaganda of today.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 7, 2009 1:22:12 GMT -5
2k... exactly what I said...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 7, 2009 1:27:37 GMT -5
There has been a Slavic presense in Shkoder since the 5th century, how continuous it was I cannot say. But it's clearer than the history of albanians that's for sure. The people of Vraka are indeed recent fugitives of a bloodfeud, but you can't claim that there weren't slavs in that area before they arrived. For example the Busatlija family from Shkoder descend from the Crnojevic family, who were slavs. The muslim slavs may have came to Shkoder in the late 1800's, as the majority of them do trace their origin to Podgorica and other Montenegrin towns, but that does not mean there weren't muslim slavs in Shkoder before them, as there definitely was. Shkoder was never traditionally homogenous by any means. Shkoder is homogenous. It is 99% Albanian populated. The Muslims of Shkoder, by majority, are not Montenegrins. Only a few, called 'Podgoricans', are and many of them have relocated themselves to Montenegro and Serbia during the 90s. The rest are just Muslim Slavs of various subgroups.
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