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Post by Duke John on Sept 25, 2009 11:17:38 GMT -5
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Post by hellboy87 on Sept 25, 2009 13:19:03 GMT -5
Actually,I really wonder about the descendants of Jannisaries
I think its hard if not impossible to tell who is descendant of one because the Jannisaries were disbanded in 1826.
Jannisaries were first taken from Christian boys in Anatolia,then as the Empire annexed lands in the Balkans,they got Serbians,Grecian Greeks,Bulgarians and others to be part of the Jannisary.
Not sure about Bosniaks and Albanians though,because they were mostly Muslim ethnic groups of the Balkans and I've read that since these Jannisaries are like slaves of Muslims,the Muslim Sultan,they couldnt be Muslim.
Does anyone,whether the Jannisaries were posted all over the Empire? Or were they mostly in the Balkans? Or were they at the borders of the Empire all over?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 25, 2009 13:36:32 GMT -5
Bosnians and Albanians were the chief recruits in the Janissary system. In fact they gained a monopoly over it and did not allow any other group to really move upwards in the system. Even after Albanians converted to Islam they still demanded for their children to be taken under the Devshirme since they hoped for them to rise up to a high status and then come home and support the family. In southern Albania Christians would often intermarry with these families so as to attain support as well. So a priest would give his daughter to a Baba's son in the hopes that that son would then provide security for the priest as well.
Im not sure about northern Albania, but in southern Albania, where most Muslims are Bektashi, the majority of conversions came through willful devshirme and while the sons were soldiers in the Ottoman service. Bektashism was very much intertwined with the Janissary system.
In fact the Janissaries were a terror for contemporary Europeans. You can see it in their writing.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 25, 2009 14:11:11 GMT -5
I dont think it was as widespread in the north. This is also evident when one considers the number of southerners vs the number of northerners who attained high positions outside Albania as grand viziers, pashas etc. Also Bektashism isn't as important in the north as in the south, and as you have said, this particular Islamic branch was intricately linked with the Janissary corps.
In the north, the country was generally less integrated and the people were not to fond of being conscripted. There are many tales of rebellions against attempts of recruitment ... it was usually preferred that they stayed home and served in the army there, perhaps as derbendcis (wacthers of mountain passes, e.g. Rugove) or as soldiers of local pashas belogning to local dynasties, i.e. the Bushatlliu family in Shkoder, Rotul of Prizren, Mahmutbegolli of Peje, Gjinolli of Prishtine and Gjilan and so forth. Although it happened occasionally that they also fought outside the homeland, e.g. against the Russians in the 1700s etc, or the Greeks in the 1770s.
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Post by Gigolo on Sept 25, 2009 14:21:25 GMT -5
As Janissaries became aware of their own importance they began to desire a better life. By the early 17th century Janissaries had such prestige and influence that they dominated the government. They could mutiny and dictate policy and hinder efforts to modernize the army structure. They could change Sultans as they wished through palace coups. They made themselves landholders and tradesmen. They would also limit the enlistment to the sons of former Janissaries who did not have to go through the original training period in the acemi oğlan, as well as avoiding the physical selection, so of lesser military value.
When Janissaries could practically extort money from the Sultan and business and family life replaced martial fervour, their effectiveness as combat troops decreased. The northern borders of the Ottoman Empire slowly began to shrink southwards after the second Battle of Vienna in 1683.
In 1449 they revolted for the first time, demanding higher wages, which they obtained. The stage was set for a decadent evolution, like the Streltsy of Tsar Peter's Russia or Praetorian Guard which had proved the greatest threat to Roman emperors, rather than an effective protection. After 1451, every new Sultan felt obligated to pay each Janissary a reward and raise his pay rank. Sultan Selim II gave janissaries permission to marry in 1566, undermining the exclusivity of loyalty to the dynasty.
By 1622, the Janissaries were a "serious threat" to the stability of the Empire. Through their "greed and indiscipline", they were now a law unto themselves and, against modern European armies, ineffective on the battlefield as a fighting force. In 1622, the teenage sultan, Osman II, came to the throne, determined to curb Janissary excesses and outraged at becoming "subject to his own slaves". In the spring, hearing rumours that the Sultan was preparing to move against them, the Janissaries revolted and took the Sultan captive, imprisoning him in the notorious Seven Towers: he was murdered shortly afterwards.
In 1807 a Janissary revolt deposed Sultan Selim III, who had tried to modernize the army along Western European lines. His supporters failed to recapture power before Mustafa IV had him killed, but elevated Mahmud II to the throne in 1808. When the Janissaries threatened to oust Mahmud II, he had the captured Mustafa executed and eventually came to a compromise with the Janissaries. Ever mindful of the Janissary threat, the sultan spent the next years discreetly securing his position. The Janissaries' abuse of power, military ineffectiveness, resistance to reform and the cost of salaries to 135,000 men, many of whom were not actually serving soldiers, had all become intolerable.
By 1826, the sultan was ready to move. Historian Patrick Kinross suggests that Mahmud II incited them to revolt on purpose, describing it as the sultan's "coup against the Janissaries". The sultan informed them, though a fatwa, that he was forming a new army, organised and trained along modern European lines. As predicted, they mutinied, advancing on the sultan's palace. In the ensuing fight, the Janissary barracks were set in flames by artillery fire resulting in 4,000 Janissary fatalities. The survivors were either exiled or executed, and their possessions were confiscated by the Sultan. This event is now called the Auspicious Incident. The last of the Janissaries were then put to death by decapitation in, what was later called 'the blood tower' in Thessalonica.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 25, 2009 14:21:29 GMT -5
Yea, ottoman sources speak of Gegelik as a territory quite disparagingly. One Ottoman writer calls all Gegs "cobans" (a term that has been used disparagingly for many groups, today Vlachs). while Toskalik "are imployed in all kinds of services". Many in the north did not want to send their sons to istanbul for fear that education under the Ottomans would "corrupt them". It was also a necessity to keep boys at home to make sure families could partake in bloodfeuds. Hence northern Albanians in the Ottoman army were vehemently opposed to partaking in foreign expeditions that took them too far outside their lands. In the league of Prizren is stipulated that Albanians would only police Albania and would not be sent outside of Albania and further that Turks would be prohibited from entering Albania (that is the various Pashaluks making up Arvanudluk) without a particular Albanian decree.
This went opposed to the Sultans plans, which were that Albanians would become a general police force throughout the empire (he even wanted to settled large groups of Albanians in Anatolia, where unrest was rising).
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Sept 26, 2009 5:59:00 GMT -5
PS.Btw can you give me the definition of the word "ancient"...i though osmanlilik wasn't in ancient times...
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Post by hellboy87 on Sept 26, 2009 6:16:06 GMT -5
toska
I dont know what exactly is Bektashi and its link to Jannisaries
another thing is,i thought the ottomans only got non-muslims to be jannisaries because they cannot get muslims to be their slaves?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 26, 2009 13:53:34 GMT -5
The program is called "Ancient Warriors" and it deals with various elite units throughout history.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Sept 26, 2009 17:17:30 GMT -5
Interesting video to watch. Several observations... Battle of Varna is basically lost by Ottomans if it was not for kidnapped Balkan christian kids that later were to become janissaries. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_VarnaOttomans start weakening in power roughly around the same time that Janissaries stopped being slave army in 1600s and by the time they are disbanded several decades later Ottoman Empire is in the state of even faster deterioration. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries some interesting quotes " From the 1380s onwards, their ranks were filled under the devşirme system, where feudal dues were paid by service to the sultan.[3] The "recruits" were mostly Christian youths, reminiscent of Mamelukes.[1] Sultan Murad may have used futuwa groups as a model. Initially the recruiters favoured Greeks (who formed the largest part of the first units) and Albanians (who also served as gendarmes), usually selecting about one boy from forty houses, but the numbers could be changed to correspond with the need for soldiers. Boys aged 14-18 were preferred, though ages 8-20 could be taken. As borders of the Ottoman Empire expanded, the devşirme was extended to include Bulgarians, Armenians, Croats, Bosnians and Serbs and later Romanians, Georgians, Poles, Ukrainians, southern Russians, and Black Africans." " The Janissaries’ reputation increased to the point that by 1683, Sultan Mehmet IV abolished the devşirme as increasing numbers of originally Muslim Turkish families had already enrolled their own sons into the force hoping for a lucrative career." " The northern borders of the Ottoman Empire slowly began to shrink southwards after the second Battle of Vienna in 1683." PS: It appears that the Janissaries were the ones primarily responsible for the Ottoman expansion and their demise meant Ottoman demise (which should have really occurred with the battle of Varna). Well educated, well trained, intensely disciplined and with unquestioned loyalty for their Sultan the Kapikulari were also Achilles heel for the Ottomans. Corrupting the system that makes it meant neutralizing it and thus neutralizing Ottomans.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Sept 26, 2009 17:24:39 GMT -5
deleted unrelated and offensive remarks that made a chain reaction that was also deleted.
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Post by hellboy87 on Sept 26, 2009 18:17:26 GMT -5
so Jannisaries were taken from several European ethnic groups and also had Armenians and sub-Saharan Africans in them.
But I did also remember reading where the Sultan was quoted saying that he preferred Bosniaks I think by saying that they are the most handsome,most pious,most discipline ones,something like that.
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yeni
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Post by yeni on Sept 26, 2009 19:11:01 GMT -5
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 26, 2009 20:51:01 GMT -5
The Bosnians were in large majority until the 17th century, after that Albanians began to dominate the system, eventually overthrowing the Bosnians from their height. I posted an article 'Ethnic cins in the Ottoman Empire' a long time ago.
What offensive remarks? I said Janissaries beat KAUR armies... which is true.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Sept 27, 2009 10:08:27 GMT -5
They were Kaurs themselves since they were kidnapped kids brainwashed into being some proud slave army of the sultan (proud slaves - imagine the amount of brainwashing) that were the primary reason of ottoman expansion.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 27, 2009 12:43:29 GMT -5
Many families wanted their kids to be kidnapped. And the taking of Christian children largely died out in the mid 16th century since by that time there were enough Muslims to keep the system alive.
Most of these kids lived in the highest form of life available at that time, received amazing educations and themselves usually gave back to their own community (like Mehmet Sokolovic).
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 27, 2009 13:20:40 GMT -5
It always seemed contradictory to me, that the Janissaries were abducted Christian children brought up to be slave-soldiers and property of the Sultan ... and the fact that the Janissaries were primarily composed by Albanian and Bosnian Muslims. This means the devsirme practice must've ended early on, as Kapikulu said, in the 16th century ... what followed? Did the position of a Janissary become hereditary? And if so, how was that possible if the Janissaries were prohibited from marrying ... if they had offspring, they were illegitimate bastards who couldn't have been entitled to any sort of heredity, including a position as a Janissary.
I'm just guessing now.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 27, 2009 13:23:39 GMT -5
In the 16th century the Janissary system opened up to Muslim volunteers. After that the Blood tax that became unfamous during the classical Ottoman era was no longer necessary. it declined substantially (for instance Greeks were no longer taken, although Bulgarians could be on some occasions).
As the system became more "polluted" it became hereditary... sort of like how unions in America have become today these large corrupt links between family and close ties, making it difficult for outsiders to pierce in without any links.
And it is an exageration to say that janissaries were the reason for the rise of the Ottomans. No elite unit is ever the reason behind a major power...
Of major significance to the Ottomans were also the Timars, the elite equestrian units of the empire. Known for their agility and speed. They had an amazing likeness to the Balkan Stradiotes, which was composed largely of Albanians.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 27, 2009 13:47:15 GMT -5
It always seemed contradictory to me, that the Janissaries were abducted Christian children brought up to be slave-soldiers and property of the Sultan ... and the fact that the Janissaries were primarily composed by Albanian and Bosnian Muslims. This means the devsirme practice must've ended early on, as Kapikulu said, in the 16th century ... what followed? Did the position of a Janissary become hereditary? And if so, how was that possible if the Janissaries were prohibited from marrying ... if they had offspring, they were illegitimate bastards who couldn't have been entitled to any sort of heredity, including a position as a Janissary. I'm just guessing now. The chief purpose for the original janissary system was a personal military unit that could be under the direct control of the Sultan. These groups would have no ties or links to any other Ottoman noble houses and so could not have any double allegiances. They were raised under the Sultans watch and were to be his. That was the main idea behind them, to undermine the threat posed by other Ottoman families.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 27, 2009 13:53:09 GMT -5
It always seemed contradictory to me, that the Janissaries were abducted Christian children brought up to be slave-soldiers and property of the Sultan ... and the fact that the Janissaries were primarily composed by Albanian and Bosnian Muslims. This means the devsirme practice must've ended early on, as Kapikulu said, in the 16th century ... what followed? Did the position of a Janissary become hereditary? And if so, how was that possible if the Janissaries were prohibited from marrying ... if they had offspring, they were illegitimate bastards who couldn't have been entitled to any sort of heredity, including a position as a Janissary. I'm just guessing now. The chief purpose for the original janissary system was a personal military unit that could be under the direct control of the Sultan. These groups would have no ties or links to any other Ottoman noble houses and so could not have any double allegiances. They were raised under the Sultans watch and were to be his. That was the main idea behind them, to undermine the threat posed by other Ottoman families. I see. In other words, none other than the Sultan was their direct commander. And Albanians like those who fought in Egypt under Mehmet Ali pasha were not Janissaries at all ? What category would they fall into?
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