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Post by Red Brigade on Oct 6, 2009 13:55:26 GMT -5
We should not fall to the trap of the whole superpower or great power thing. Switzerland is a small landlocked country, but I would chose Switzerland over Russia, USA and China any-day.
Let's face it. We are common people and we have nothing to win from the world conflicts. It's none of our business. The countries are pouring enormous money in the military, can you imagine how the world would be if all these money went to something more worthwhile?
I want to provide you an interesting quote from one of the powerful members of the Nazi leaderships during the Nuremberg trials, Hermann Goering.
“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
So the conflict between superpowers is none of our business. We are middle class people not CEOs neither do we own companies in the military industrial complex.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Oct 6, 2009 14:36:20 GMT -5
Certainly. I used the number two as an example. EU is comprised by 27 members.
The level of economic and political integration and social intertwinement I am refering to, as among EU's members, isn't present everywhere. This is also why the level of stability,both economical and political, as found within EU is not to be found in so many places outside Europe.
Certainly, but here we're talking of an external party that is not (sufficiently) economically (& politically) integrated. Within EU the level of interdependence has nullified the chance of such internal conflicts. This interdependence has somewhat been intercontinentally exported in the sense that many countries depend on trade with EU and its money and investments. They cannot afford nor do they have any interest in attacking the union militarily.
One nuclear weapon used is more dangerous than 100 unused. There's no political will or need to use nuclear weapons, its far too risky. .
And ultimately this will lead to, you say, a federal EU army? Is that your final point? Because as I said, this might be, but other than speculations there's not much to indicate this. There is no political movement that wishes to replace Nato with some EU federal army. Militarily, the West is still one block through Nato, and I don't see why in this regard the Europeans would want to change things or challenge the US as you hypothesized ? I'm sorry to say, but it sounds mostly like wishful thinking. Which leads us to the original question; other than the speculated scenarios you provided, what real signs of this irreversible decline of EU power do you see?
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Oct 6, 2009 16:41:16 GMT -5
We should not fall to the trap of the whole superpower or great power thing. Switzerland is a small landlocked country, but I would chose Switzerland over Russia, USA and China any-day. Let's face it. We are common people and we have nothing to win from the world conflicts. It's none of our business. The countries are pouring enormous money in the military, can you imagine how the world would be if all these money went to something more worthwhile? I want to provide you an interesting quote from one of the powerful members of the Nazi leaderships during the Nuremberg trials, Hermann Goering. “Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” So the conflict between superpowers is none of our business. We are middle class people not CEOs neither do we own companies in the military industrial complex. Yes, however what you say is true, you also have to take into account that in today's day, intellectuals are by the hundreds of millions if not stretching into billions. The Human Race is developing, and therefore we are very aware of everything that goes on. If you do not voice your opinion, you are not doing your part for the government. Ultimately, what you see in Parliament (or whoever is voted to be Prime Minister, Premier, or President) is the exact representation of the people. A Democracy works as such that there is always opposition, and contra-medium thought. Greece this week was an excellent example of that. We, the people, are responsible for our leaders, because they represent our majority. In turn, most times, we should make conflicts our business, because it is our business. Conflicts between Superpowers (Unless we live in one of those mentioned however) is none of our business. In that, you are fully correct.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Oct 7, 2009 2:11:13 GMT -5
Certainly. I used the number two as an example. EU is comprised by 27 members. OK That is right, it is not present anywhere else since it was the European powers which dominated the world politics between 18th and 20th Centuries. This era is over for some time. Therefore, Germany needs Spain, Austria, Italy, France, Holland and so on. That is why, those try to intergate their economies and political systems. So far, only economic integration could be deemed as successful. Moreover, I do not see any political stablitiy like you do. After all, it was Europe which inflicted sparks of the ethnic wars in Balkans. It was Holland which escorted the genocide in Bosnia, It was France which involved in the Rwandan Genocide. It was UK, Spain, Italy, Denmark which did commit disgusting crimes on the Iraqi civilians, and you call this " political stability"? I am sorry but I have to disagree. I do not think it is nullified. It is only minimized due to the economic interdependency you refer, of course for the time being. However, the trade routes are changing. World's production and consumption centers are slowly shifting away from Europe and West. The Western socities in general still enjoy the benefits of colonial plunder, but one can not sustain such position without exploiting the world's natural resources and labor. Such exploitation is not possible anymore. It is over for Europe as well as for the West. Time to step down is approaching gradually. ;D Frankly speaking, I do not trust in any of the European/Western powers. I am sure that the Chinese, Iranians, Chechens, Indonesians, Arabs, Africans, Native Australians, Latin Americans, Romas, Pakis, Indians, Circassians, and many other peoples of the world think like I do. After all, if you reevaluate the history of Europe, and the destructive tendencies existing in Western/European societies, then you might understand what I really stress. It is not a speculation, it is a process that is already in progress. What you seem to misunderstand is perhaps the context. The EU is not only an effort for granting better negotiation terms for individual countries in terms of global affairs, but it is a political attempt to build military infrastructure that could compete with the US, Russia, China or any other emerging powers. That is why, the EU still sticks to NATO, probably in the future, the EU will continue to participate in NATO as long as US agrees to set up exclusive partnership with the EU. If not, then there will be an EU army to rely on. EU officials on EU Army:www.wsws.org/articles/2007/sep2007/sark-s03.shtmlwww.worldpoliticsreview.com/Article.aspx?id=727#euobserver.com/9/26107euobserver.com/9/27000It might sound like wishful thinking for you, but certainly, not for everyone. In March 2006 we published a report highlighting the rapid growth and increasing global significance of what we called the ‘E7’ emerging economies: the BRIC economies of Brazil, Russia, India and China, plus Mexico, Indonesia and Turkey. Here we update our economic growth projections to take into account the latest available data.We also extend the analysis to include 13 other emerging economies. Added to the 17 largest economies considered in our earlier report, this new ‘PwC 30’ grouping of countries accounts for around 85% of world economic output.
Some of the highlighted projections of this latest analysis:
- By 2050, the E7 emerging economies will be around 50% larger than the current G7 (US, Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy and Canada) - China is expected to overtake the US as the largest economy in around 2025 - India has the potential to nearly catch up with the US by 2050
The projected list of fastest growing economies to 2050 is headed by Vietnam, and the top 10 includes Nigeria, Philippines, Egypt and Bangladesh www.pwc.com/gx/en/world-2050/beyond-the-brics.jhtmlE7 50% larger than G7, sounds like emergence of the EU or US? ;D
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 7, 2009 14:35:54 GMT -5
That's why I put those pix of Brazil, to show how selective one can be. The words like "In Europe we already have all that is needed", Malaysia or Brazil are "poor countries" is rubbish. And because it was said by a Greek, I will give some examples of what Greece still do not have. An EU menber state that gets huge amounts of EU funds (since the 70's), the infra structure looks worse than Croatia. When I was driving across GR recently, it remind me as I was in a Middle Eastern country. In addition to that, this country still oppress their non-greek minorities (specially in the north). The corruption is widely spread. Nowadays, most EU airports do strict gate controlls of all Greek flights coming with illegal (smuggled) immigrants - it's a huge problem for EU and big busines for some greek border controll areas. Despite that fact, GR is a Schengen member state, which should fight against that "business". I can make the list longer, but what I mean.. some parts of Europe are not really Europe. Europe is too different - from north to south and east to west. Belongin economically, geographically or politically to Europe doesn't automatically mean that some parts of our continent are better than i.e. New Caledonia or Brazil!
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Oct 7, 2009 17:23:02 GMT -5
It wouldn't matter what Greece has or hasn't you have an inherited bias in your simple brain to hate Greek and Greece..... it's like a scorpion ... and it's porpoise in life...I cannot say or do anything that will make you see things favorable for my country.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 7, 2009 18:56:44 GMT -5
No, I don't have a bias but pure facts. I really hate it, when some Greek mouths talk and bias other countries, but when someone has smth to say about Greece - it hurts inside, yeah.. And don't comment my brain again, pls. I like you - do not hate you.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Oct 7, 2009 19:51:36 GMT -5
Bingo.... I am always right.... now back off back under the porch. ;D
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Oct 8, 2009 1:05:00 GMT -5
That's why I put those pix of Brazil, to show how selective one can be. The words like "In Europe we already have all that is needed", Malaysia or Brazil are "poor countries" is rubbish. You were right, Malaysia or Brazil are not poor countries at all. Quite contrary. For example, Brazil has sophisticated rocket technology, builds military and commercial aircrafts, drills oil better than many developed countries. Most importantly, they play football pretty well. Malaysia's Proton owns Lotus, and build cars. Malaysia builds commercial aricrafts, and has quite sophisticated industrial infrastructure. Anybody who reads the posts of that Geek admin, could understand the points you raised on Greece. ;D I fully agree.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Oct 8, 2009 5:35:27 GMT -5
How can you tow fine gentlemen understand... I mean look where you live... it's not your fault.
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Post by chalkedon on Oct 8, 2009 6:23:37 GMT -5
Rhezus...when was the last time you drove through Greece ?
Even my brothers and other ppl from the states that come here are impressed with our new roads. It doesnt look like ME anymore....
btw...have you ever driven through some parts of big cities in America ? there are places in chicago that look like absolute chit...but you wouldnt know about that would you ?
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 8, 2009 7:35:55 GMT -5
It still look to me like the Middle East.. all the villages, towns, the mentality of people - backward and very shauvinistic impression. And yes, I've been both in the US and Canada, but that's not the point.
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Oct 8, 2009 8:02:50 GMT -5
I bet a fair penny that Rhezus has never been to Greece.
In saying that we are aware of the condition the country is in.... yes there are parts that are rotten.... yes there are people that are rotten..... like every other country... but when you take into consideration the low crime rate and the more than 1000 getaway islands ..... and the overall moderate to high standard of living....it's an excellent place to live...
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Post by chalkedon on Oct 8, 2009 8:42:54 GMT -5
It still look to me like the Middle East.. all the villages, towns, the mentality of people - backward and very shauvinistic impression. And yes, I've been both in the US and Canada, but that's not the point. where exactly did you drive through ? Just out of curiousity ? btw...what the hell does this have to do with Russia ? LOL !
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 8, 2009 8:44:02 GMT -5
Kanaris, you loose.. I have been to Greece and I know a lot about your country. I see you are protecting it by saying: moderate to high standard of living... an excellent place to live.. 1000mof islands and low criminality. Sounds like a travel commercial.
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Post by chalkedon on Oct 8, 2009 8:51:44 GMT -5
again.....where ? ^^^
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Oct 8, 2009 9:08:37 GMT -5
;D It still look to me like the Middle East.. all the villages, towns, the mentality of people - backward and very shauvinistic impression. And yes, I've been both in the US and Canada, but that's not the point. Sounds like a hell of a place. ;D
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 8, 2009 9:10:02 GMT -5
Mostly through the mainland GR.. south, central, north etc. But as you said it is off topic. LoL
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Kanaris
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Post by Kanaris on Oct 8, 2009 9:56:14 GMT -5
I passed through while I was in an airplane and looked down LoL
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 8, 2009 10:19:32 GMT -5
You wish it was so.. ^^
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