New Macedonian Encyclopedia

[Kanaris]

Obama has shelved that plan.... and the way things are going.... in America... it's as good as dead.

[L0gjICK]

Sept 21, 2009 3:15:45 GMT -5 Kassandros said:

Sept 20, 2009 13:09:22 GMT -5 rex362 said:

greece gets nothing ....as a matter of fact greece has to give up some

Rex... just in case anything happens... I say just in case...... I think Monastiri/Bitola will become the most northern city of Hellenism again.. as it was.
So, keep your dreams around Tetovo area... and let Greek cities with Greek state and dont be greedy because you gonna loose Tetovo too..

This is why you do not trust Greeks. They'll pretend to help you and end up trying to fck you over afterwards.

History has shown that your kind is not to be trusted.

[chalkedon]

history has shown we are the only ones to trust.
We could of had your asses and all of N. Epirus if we wanted to, justifiable so.
Forget the Italian fascist incedent ? We pulled out as soon as we kicked their asses back to Italy. A Turk would of set camp and bring in settlers

We backed Serbia during the Nato bombing and pissed off many of our allies because of our stance. We dont back kosovo ( even though on a personal level my opinion is changing ), we dont back Iraq war of even Afghanistan. Hell, we are probably the most peace loving nation in the world and the most anti-imperialistic country in the world.

[epiroti]

Chalkedon, we haven't debated much against each other, but seems that you are a good thinker (although that last paragraph doesn't make too much sense ;D). This is not to say I agree with the above. First, let me say that the direction of discussions gets always derailed in this forum - the likes of Basil are to be thanked for that - and before you know it, we start finding justifications for past events without examining them correctly. Names-calling follows shortly after. I might appear very anti-greek, when in fact I get along great with greeks in my university. But boy there are some annoying members in these forums... Basil loves conspiracy theories, Kartela is a pure instigator, Canaris is fixated with the idea that we didn't exist before the 13th century and refuses to consider theories that all hint to illyrian descendence, etc etc... It's these people that annoy me, not even Kastorianos or you. Kastor is openly anti-albanian (not extremely so), and that I accept. Life after all is largly conflict, and I personally don't have a problem with that.

Now, I'll address your above post. Be careful before you try to justify certain greek actions of the past. Because of nationality, you instinctively want to prove that your "tribe" is and has been right. But I highly doubt that you as a person would have made some of the decisions that you justify: you would have not ordered those fascist greeks in '44-'45 to massacre some 6000 albanians and make 30000 more flee before the greeks got to their villages. Also, I could be wrong, but I am convinced that the greeks didn't retreat so willingly after they entered into albania in pursuit of the italians. They did more or less what you claimed that turks would have done: set up camp. I was raised not far from the region where the greeks set up bases in albania. And you didn't pull out volunteraly... Also, the greeks in 1912-1913 commited many massacres in Albania - against civilians. Then there is the treatment of albs in chameria, and not just during the 2nd world war. So based on past actions, I am sorry to say you don't have the moral highground.

But as I said, some of you guys in here would have not carried out those actions or made those decisions if it was you who had to make them. So why the hell justify them?! You don't see me trying to justify any wrong actions that Albanians have undertaken, or orders they have obeyed during ottoman times.

Also, we have been less "modern" with our political organisation during the ottoman days (take away Scanderbeg's glorious days, and pne or two other periods). But we had quite a good traditinal organisation. If you don't believe me, find an english translation of the Kanuni (that of Laberia if you can, since you border our south), and you'll see how regulated decision-making processes for going to war were. Making it much less likely to start unfair wars than our neighbours who took orders from greedy "nobility". Donnie and Toskaliku know more than me on this, and they're wellcome to correct me.

[L0gjICK]

Chalkedon, I don't trust Greeks. Say hypothetically if Greeks were to fund the Albanians in Macedonia, and say hypothetically if the Albanians would win, what next? Greeks would come and take our lands from us -- Greeks are not to be trusted. We have done your dirty work in the past and have gotten screwed over.

Besides I would rather wait and try to resolve our differences internally with the Slavic Macedonians then to receive external help from the Greeks or Bulgarians whom would want Albanian lands.

Macedonians Slavs will eventually realize that there is no Macedonia without the Albanians. You can not run a divided State! No need to rush anything, we have time.

And truth be told I actually prefer Macedonian Slavs to Greeks because at least we have some leverage with the Slavs. There's no way I would trust your country of 10+ million against our 500-700k of Albos in Macedonia. Albos in Macedonia need to stay arm length away from the Greeks for our own safety.

[todhrimencuri]

Sept 21, 2009 7:31:51 GMT -5 Kanaris said:

Obama has shelved that plan.... and the way things are going.... in America... it's as good as dead.

Obama shelved an extremely antagonistic and aggressive GOP policy towards Russia that has served to alienate the two groups to complete extreme. If anything, it shows his ability to bring change to the US by reversing its bully image. America still wields immense influence int he EU and the Russian border states.

[todhrimencuri]

history has shown we are the only ones to trust.
We could of had your asses and all of N. Epirus if we wanted to, justifiable so.
Forget the Italian fascist incedent ? We pulled out as soon as we kicked their asses back to Italy. A Turk would of set camp and bring in settlers

Lets get one thing straight. Greece did not pull out of anything... Greece was pummeled out of southern Albania by a light German offensive in the area. Germans were the ones who pulled out of the region once the Partisans had established firm control over the southern area. Greece had no intension of pulling out of southern Albanian. NONE! She in fact was planning to stay for the long haul. She closed Albanian schools, ordered mass arrests of Albanian nationalists in Korca, planted Greek flags everywhere. In fact, Greece became furious when England told it that she would not be able to hold the region once the war was over since borders would be reverted to pre-1939.

Ill remind you and my people: You guys are ENEMIES. Not friends.... you were during WWII just as much as you are today. If it were the Turks, we would have joined their army and we would have fought together against a common enemy, as we did during the Ottoman Empire.

[luarasi]

Now is the time and only time that Albania has to side with Greece and screw this twisted mf Fyromians. They make false claims about our history, we don't have to do the same only not recognize their "Macedonian heritage" that's all we have to do. This has to be "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"

[Kassandros]

Logjik, if someone reads your post and Toskalis post... he would never understand that Greece was under attack by 2 huge countries in WW2...

You pass along the idea of Greece as aggressor and the invader.
To remind you... Greece was a peacefull country... with no problems.. and one morning.. 2 huge countries (Italy-Germany) attacked Greece with the help of 2 neighboring countries (Albania-Bulgaria)... and 1/6 of the Greek population died!
Now.. how it comes.. and ..... Greeks are the ones who have to give explanations to you? ..really now... isnt it very weird? Shouldnt be... the other way around?
What is next? Germans, Italians and Bulgarians will accuse us as "killers" and "genociders" too?
Just common logic...

Also... am I the only one who see Greeks are the only people in the area that does not claim land from a neighbor country and Greece is the ONLY country in Balkans that OPPOSE every change of borders.. despite the fact that ALL the Balkan countries have less military power than Greece... and Greece should have been the one who would love to see borders changing in Balkans?!
Imagine Greece not being there.. and Turkey be on its place; Do you understand that you would have wars every 10' ?

Also.. that "massacred" 6000 Chams..... is there any evidence for that except books from Hotza or other Albanian "scientists"?
There is not even ONE SERIOUS non-Albanian evidence for that "massacre"! And you know.. when a genocide takes place.... the place is full of bones and skeletons.. and people know!
How it comes and these huge "massacre" is know only between the nationalistic circles of Albania and not to the rest of the world?
Is it the same kind of the"genocide" of the "Macedonians" by the Greeks... Fyromians claim? ;D ;D

Yes.. 20-30000 Chams fleed the country after Nazism collapsed and German left them out alone... but.. .wtf? It is war!
Close to my neighborhood in Thessaloniki there was a huge commounity of Italians. They were around 25,000 leaving in ONE neighborhood. The street until lately was named "Italias"... and the last 10-25 years it changed the name to "28th October".
They fleed 10 times faster than Chams when Germans start retreating from Greece for the same reason Chams left; Fear!
And they had right!
If I was a Greek back then... suffered starvation for 4 years... humiliation from the occuping soldiers... humiliation from the well feed Italian citizens of Thessaloniki.... seing with my own eyes villages around Thessaloniki and neighborhoods on fire with people inside the church being burned alive! because some gorillas killed 1 soldiers...... seing with my own eyes family members dying from starvation or bullets or in flames as retaliation...
..do you believe I would react different when I would have the chance?! Both Chams and the Italian citizens of Thessaloniki knew it.. and good for them.. they left. Thats it and it is over.
I forgot my hate.. they forgot their homes. That is how things in wars are.
We suffered the same and even worst in Asia Minor.. (WITH EVIDENCE this time ) .
1,5 million Greeks were massacred and lost their land, homes and everything by Turks.
We got over it! Isnt it time for you to get over these 30 thousand of people... who were Nazis... and just lost their land but they saved their lives?

Greek official state mentions NOTHING in the Greek school books about the Chams and their role in WW2 just because we dont want to raise our children full of hate for Albanians.
All we know is from personal education.
Even a nationalistic group like "Mavi" who claims liberation of Northern Epirus was hounded down immediatelly and dissolved.
Isnt it time to hound down your nationalistic groups like Chams... before they succeed to remind the Greeks about the role of the Cham in WW2.. and bring back the hate inside our souls for them.. now that we have forgotten it?
Believe me.. from this hate.. we're not the ones who gonna loose.

[chalkedon]

Sept 21, 2009 8:47:27 GMT -5 epiroti said:

Chalkedon, we haven't debated much against each other, but seems that you are a good thinker (although that last paragraph doesn't make too much sense ;D). This is not to say I agree with the above. First, let me say that the direction of discussions gets always derailed in this forum - the likes of Basil are to be thanked for that - and before you know it, we start finding justifications for past events without examining them correctly. Names-calling follows shortly after. I might appear very anti-greek, when in fact I get along great with greeks in my university. But boy there are some annoying members in these forums... Basil loves conspiracy theories, Kartela is a pure instigator, Canaris is fixated with the idea that we didn't exist before the 13th century and refuses to consider theories that all hint to illyrian descendence, etc etc... It's these people that annoy me, not even Kastorianos or you. Kastor is openly anti-albanian (not extremely so), and that I accept. Life after all is largly conflict, and I personally don't have a problem with that.

Now, I'll address your above post. Be careful before you try to justify certain greek actions of the past. Because of nationality, you instinctively want to prove that your "tribe" is and has been right. But I highly doubt that you as a person would have made some of the decisions that you justify: you would have not ordered those fascist greeks in '44-'45 to massacre some 6000 albanians and make 30000 more flee before the greeks got to their villages. Also, I could be wrong, but I am convinced that the greeks didn't retreat so willingly after they entered into albania in pursuit of the italians. They did more or less what you claimed that turks would have done: set up camp. I was raised not far from the region where the greeks set up bases in albania. And you didn't pull out volunteraly... Also, the greeks in 1912-1913 commited many massacres in Albania - against civilians. Then there is the treatment of albs in chameria, and not just during the 2nd world war. So based on past actions, I am sorry to say you don't have the moral highground.

But as I said, some of you guys in here would have not carried out those actions or made those decisions if it was you who had to make them. So why the hell justify them?! You don't see me trying to justify any wrong actions that Albanians have undertaken, or orders they have obeyed during ottoman times.

Also, we have been less "modern" with our political organisation during the ottoman days (take away Scanderbeg's glorious days, and pne or two other periods). But we had quite a good traditinal organisation. If you don't believe me, find an english translation of the Kanuni (that of Laberia if you can, since you border our south), and you'll see how regulated decision-making processes for going to war were. Making it much less likely to start unfair wars than our neighbours who took orders from greedy "nobility". Donnie and Toskaliku know more than me on this, and they're wellcome to correct me.

Hey Epirot ;D your pretty level headed yourself. Dont worry, im a moderate around here regarding you guys. I used to hate you ppl with a passion ( kind of like meltdown now ), but after years living in greece i really made a turnaround. I met many albs through work and through everyday routine. Most are descent ppl in my opinion and get along quite well in greece. They are completely into the greek vibe with the frappedes and everything.

I stand on what i said above, i really do believe that greek ppl are not imperialistic genocidal maniacs as some of you would like to portray. In all reality, most greeks just want to be left alone to enjoy life and cant be bothered ;D In any case, like I said many times before....come to greece to find out yourselves how we are as a ppl rather on the internet.

Public enemy no 1 for me now are the skopians.

[chalkedon]

Sept 21, 2009 9:04:20 GMT -5 L0gjICK said:

Chalkedon, I don't trust Greeks. Say hypothetically if Greeks were to fund the Albanians in Macedonia, and say hypothetically if the Albanians would win, what next? Greeks would come and take our lands from us -- Greeks are not to be trusted. We have done your dirty work in the past and have gotten screwed over.

Besides I would rather wait and try to resolve our differences internally with the Slavic Macedonians then to receive external help from the Greeks or Bulgarians whom would want Albanian lands.

Macedonians Slavs will eventually realize that there is no Macedonia without the Albanians. You can not run a divided State! No need to rush anything, we have time.

And truth be told I actually prefer Macedonian Slavs to Greeks because at least we have some leverage with the Slavs. There's no way I would trust your country of 10+ million against our 500-700k of Albos in Macedonia. Albos in Macedonia need to stay arm length away from the Greeks for our own safety.

hey logik, we exchanged posts before...and i would just like to correct you on something. The only time you did the dirty work was for the ottomans and nazi's. Thats when things didnt go well for some of your ppl ( collaberators and opportunists ). That resulted in your famous chameria issue. The times that albanians sided with the greeks were probably the best of their times. Again, i will repeat...come to greece to see how many albanians get along here and at the same time keeping their cultures strong. They fit in quite well here... The ones that like us and are into the greek society really have a good life here. You said you would stop by one day in the summer...I hope you do.

And finally, dont give us that much credit. I only wish sometimes we interfered with other countries politics like our friends the turks do.

[chalkedon]

Sept 21, 2009 10:24:55 GMT -5 @todhrimencuri said:

history has shown we are the only ones to trust.
We could of had your asses and all of N. Epirus if we wanted to, justifiable so.
Forget the Italian fascist incedent ? We pulled out as soon as we kicked their asses back to Italy. A Turk would of set camp and bring in settlers

Lets get one thing straight. Greece did not pull out of anything... Greece was pummeled out of southern Albania by a light German offensive in the area. Germans were the ones who pulled out of the region once the Partisans had established firm control over the southern area. Greece had no intension of pulling out of southern Albanian. NONE! She in fact was planning to stay for the long haul. She closed Albanian schools, ordered mass arrests of Albanian nationalists in Korca, planted Greek flags everywhere. In fact, Greece became furious when England told it that she would not be able to hold the region once the war was over since borders would be reverted to pre-1939.

Ill remind you and my people: You guys are ENEMIES. Not friends.... you were during WWII just as much as you are today. If it were the Turks, we would have joined their army and we would have fought together against a common enemy, as we did during the Ottoman Empire.

meltdown, dont try to push your personal opinions on us as a group issue between albos and greeks. And lastly, pls post sources of how we got our asses owned by the germans and how upset we were at the english.

If anything was closed back then or anything " forced " than that was simply done because it we were in wartime. In the USA they forced american japs to be in camps during the WW2 era. Or didnt you know that ?

[Gigolo]

Sept 21, 2009 14:06:29 GMT -5 Kassandros said:

Logjik, if someone reads your post and Toskalis post... he would never understand that Greece was under attack by 2 huge countries in WW2...

You pass along the idea of Greece as aggressor and the invader.
To remind you... Greece was a peacefull country... with no problems.. and one morning.. 2 huge countries (Italy-Germany) attacked Greece with the help of 2 neighboring countries (Albania-Bulgaria)... and 1/6 of the Greek population died!
Now.. how it comes.. and ..... Greeks are the ones who have to give explanations to you? ..really now... isnt it very weird? Shouldnt be... the other way around?
What is next? Germans, Italians and Bulgarians will accuse us as "killers" and "genociders" too?
Just common logic...

Also... am I the only one who see Greeks are the only people in the area that does not claim land from a neighbor country and Greece is the ONLY country in Balkans that OPPOSE every change of borders.. despite the fact that ALL the Balkan countries have less military power than Greece... and Greece should have been the one who would love to see borders changing in Balkans?!
Imagine Greece not being there.. and Turkey be on its place; Do you understand that you would have wars every 10' ?

Also.. that "massacred" 6000 Chams..... is there any evidence for that except books from Hotza or other Albanian "scientists"?
There is not even ONE SERIOUS non-Albanian evidence for that "massacre"! And you know.. when a genocide takes place.... the place is full of bones and skeletons.. and people know!
How it comes and these huge "massacre" is know only between the nationalistic circles of Albania and not to the rest of the world?
Is it the same kind of the"genocide" of the "Macedonians" by the Greeks... Fyromians claim? ;D ;D

Yes.. 20-30000 Chams fleed the country after Nazism collapsed and German left them out alone... but.. .wtf? It is war!
Close to my neighborhood in Thessaloniki there was a huge commounity of Italians. They were around 25,000 leaving in ONE neighborhood. The street until lately was named "Italias"... and the last 10-25 years it changed the name to "28th October".
They fleed 10 times faster than Chams when Germans start retreating from Greece for the same reason Chams left; Fear!
And they had right!
If I was a Greek back then... suffered starvation for 4 years... humiliation from the occuping soldiers... humiliation from the well feed Italian citizens of Thessaloniki.... seing with my own eyes villages around Thessaloniki and neighborhoods on fire with people inside the church being burned alive! because some gorillas killed 1 soldiers...... seing with my own eyes family members dying from starvation or bullets or in flames as retaliation...
..do you believe I would react different when I would have the chance?! Both Chams and the Italian citizens of Thessaloniki knew it.. and good for them.. they left. Thats it and it is over.
I forgot my hate.. they forgot their homes. That is how things in wars are.
We suffered the same and even worst in Asia Minor.. (WITH EVIDENCE this time ) .
1,5 million Greeks were massacred and lost their land, homes and everything by Turks.
We got over it! Isnt it time for you to get over these 30 thousand of people... who were Nazis... and just lost their land but they saved their lives?

Greek official state mentions NOTHING in the Greek school books about the Chams and their role in WW2 just because we dont want to raise our children full of hate for Albanians.
All we know is from personal education.
Even a nationalistic group like "Mavi" who claims liberation of Northern Epirus was hounded down immediatelly and dissolved.
Isnt it time to hound down your nationalistic groups like Chams... before they succeed to remind the Greeks about the role of the Cham in WW2.. and bring back the hate inside our souls for them.. now that we have forgotten it?
Believe me.. from this hate.. we're not the ones who gonna loose.

Lol Italy and Germany didn't "attack Greece one morning". Italy attacked, failed, like they failed pretty much everywhere, and then almost a year later Germans intervened to salvage Axis respect.

[todhrimencuri]

germany had to do the same in the African campaign. 200,000 Italian troops were defeated by some 10,000 British troops.

[Kassandros]

Sept 21, 2009 15:45:11 GMT -5 Gigolo said:

Sept 21, 2009 14:06:29 GMT -5 Kassandros said:

Logjik, if someone reads your post and Toskalis post... he would never understand that Greece was under attack by 2 huge countries in WW2...

You pass along the idea of Greece as aggressor and the invader.
To remind you... Greece was a peacefull country... with no problems.. and one morning.. 2 huge countries (Italy-Germany) attacked Greece with the help of 2 neighboring countries (Albania-Bulgaria)... and 1/6 of the Greek population died!
Now.. how it comes.. and ..... Greeks are the ones who have to give explanations to you? ..really now... isnt it very weird? Shouldnt be... the other way around?
What is next? Germans, Italians and Bulgarians will accuse us as "killers" and "genociders" too?
Just common logic...

Also... am I the only one who see Greeks are the only people in the area that does not claim land from a neighbor country and Greece is the ONLY country in Balkans that OPPOSE every change of borders.. despite the fact that ALL the Balkan countries have less military power than Greece... and Greece should have been the one who would love to see borders changing in Balkans?!
Imagine Greece not being there.. and Turkey be on its place; Do you understand that you would have wars every 10' ?

Also.. that "massacred" 6000 Chams..... is there any evidence for that except books from Hotza or other Albanian "scientists"?
There is not even ONE SERIOUS non-Albanian evidence for that "massacre"! And you know.. when a genocide takes place.... the place is full of bones and skeletons.. and people know!
How it comes and these huge "massacre" is know only between the nationalistic circles of Albania and not to the rest of the world?
Is it the same kind of the"genocide" of the "Macedonians" by the Greeks... Fyromians claim? ;D ;D

Yes.. 20-30000 Chams fleed the country after Nazism collapsed and German left them out alone... but.. .wtf? It is war!
Close to my neighborhood in Thessaloniki there was a huge commounity of Italians. They were around 25,000 leaving in ONE neighborhood. The street until lately was named "Italias"... and the last 10-25 years it changed the name to "28th October".
They fleed 10 times faster than Chams when Germans start retreating from Greece for the same reason Chams left; Fear!
And they had right!
If I was a Greek back then... suffered starvation for 4 years... humiliation from the occuping soldiers... humiliation from the well feed Italian citizens of Thessaloniki.... seing with my own eyes villages around Thessaloniki and neighborhoods on fire with people inside the church being burned alive! because some gorillas killed 1 soldiers...... seing with my own eyes family members dying from starvation or bullets or in flames as retaliation...
..do you believe I would react different when I would have the chance?! Both Chams and the Italian citizens of Thessaloniki knew it.. and good for them.. they left. Thats it and it is over.
I forgot my hate.. they forgot their homes. That is how things in wars are.
We suffered the same and even worst in Asia Minor.. (WITH EVIDENCE this time ) .
1,5 million Greeks were massacred and lost their land, homes and everything by Turks.
We got over it! Isnt it time for you to get over these 30 thousand of people... who were Nazis... and just lost their land but they saved their lives?

Greek official state mentions NOTHING in the Greek school books about the Chams and their role in WW2 just because we dont want to raise our children full of hate for Albanians.
All we know is from personal education.
Even a nationalistic group like "Mavi" who claims liberation of Northern Epirus was hounded down immediatelly and dissolved.
Isnt it time to hound down your nationalistic groups like Chams... before they succeed to remind the Greeks about the role of the Cham in WW2.. and bring back the hate inside our souls for them.. now that we have forgotten it?
Believe me.. from this hate.. we're not the ones who gonna loose.

Lol Italy and Germany didn't "attack Greece one morning". Italy attacked, failed, like they failed pretty much everywhere, and then almost a year later Germans intervened to salvage Axis respect.

... figure of speech Einstein..

[Patrinos]

Sept 21, 2009 15:47:11 GMT -5 @todhrimencuri said:

germany had to do the same in the African campaign. 200,000 Italian troops were defeated by some 10,000 British troops.

And why a mass of trime shqiptaret... ...couldn't drop them in Adriatic...?

[Patrinos]

Sorry, I forgot...Ottomans teached you hospitality...

[todhrimencuri]

Sept 21, 2009 16:39:12 GMT -5 Patrinos said:

Sept 21, 2009 15:47:11 GMT -5 @todhrimencuri said:

germany had to do the same in the African campaign. 200,000 Italian troops were defeated by some 10,000 British troops.

And why a mass of trime shqiptaret... ...couldn't drop them in Adriatic...?

Let our enemies kill each other. Look up the defense of Durres. 300 of Zog's most loyal troops held the Italians at the beach for three days until the Italians bombarded the beach.

Its in this book: books.google.com/books?id=vXP0NwAACAAJ&dq=albania%27s+self+made+king&client=firefox-a

We also already kicked the Italians out of Albania once during the Vlora War... without an organized army but with peasants.

I say. Italians had nothing to do with Albania, they wanted to attack Yugoslavia and Greece. Why attack them when they will just help us kill an enemy?

[Patrinos]

Sept 21, 2009 16:51:07 GMT -5 @todhrimencuri said:

Sept 21, 2009 16:39:12 GMT -5 Patrinos said:

And why a mass of trime shqiptaret... ...couldn't drop them in Adriatic...?

Let our enemies kill each other. Look up the defense of Durres. 300 of Zog's most loyal troops held the Italians at the beach for three days until the Italians bombarded the beach.

Its in this book: books.google.com/books?id=vXP0NwAACAAJ&dq=albania%27s+self+made+king&client=firefox-a

We also already kicked the Italians out of Albania once during the Vlora War... without an organized army but with peasants.

I say. Italians had nothing to do with Albania, they wanted to attack Yugoslavia and Greece. Why attack them when they will just help us kill an enemy?

Anything more that this : ;D is futile....

[terroreign]

Sept 21, 2009 5:57:41 GMT -5 @rusebg said:

Well, you were never a bright and observative person. Why spoiling that image?

Enough of your tatarian idiocy.