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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 30, 2009 23:53:01 GMT -5
I just watched the PBS documentary The Armenian Genocide a very informative piece. It is very sad what happened to the Armenians in 1915 by the genocidal ottoman government. The Armenians are a great people who have contributed much intellectually to humanity and i think its one of the biggest if not the biggest scandal of the20th century that the whole world has not recognized the Armenian Genocide even Israel has not recognized the Armenian genocide a country built by survivors of a genocide that's really shocking i guess because Turkey is there strongest ally in the Middle East but for Isreal not to recognize the genocide is just revolting IMO i know there are politics but at the end of the day.
What are your guys thoughts on this had you even heard of the Armenian genocide before this?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:01:26 GMT -5
The documentary is just another one of the western ways to try and make the slaughter of Christian Armenians grand while minimising the equal suffering endured by Muslim Ottomans (Albanians are included in this) during the last stages of the Ottoman government. Those "great people" are also the ones today rushing to Serbia's side when it comes to Kosovo . In fact, ask the average Armenian what he thinks of the Kosovo issue and then rethink your adjectives 'great people. Worse yet, the full extent of the documentary, where pro-Armenian and pro-Turkish scholars were supposed to come in and discuss the event was silenced by activity of the Armenian lobby. Active in trying to promote pro-Armenian propaganda even through this very documentary. Sad to say that that worked... Im not going to bother getting into the issue. There have been enough discussions by both pro-Turkish and pro-Armenian sides in the Turkish Forum. And no, I do not believe that it was an act of premeditated genocide, but a case of ethnic cleansing and deportation gone wrong. Wrong when the Ottomans realized that they could not trust the Armenians in their eastern end because they showed themselves active allies and tools of the Russians (another major obstacle of Albania's). If an Albanian says Armenians were the ones suffering while the Turks and Muslim Ottomans not, then he is spitting on the suffering of his own people...
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 0:03:36 GMT -5
Also some quotes and facts about the Armenian genocide.
When Hitler first proposed his final solution, he was told that the world would never permit such a mass murder. Hitler silenced his advisers by asking, "Who remembers the Armenians?"
The Raphael Lemkin Polish Jewish legal scholar who coined the term GENOCIDE in referring to the word said evoked "memories of the slaughter of Armenians" during World War I.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:07:16 GMT -5
I agree with you Alb, it is a terrible loss to humanity and to Central Asia that one of the most forward thinking and intelligent ethnic groups to ever live has been nearly wiped off the face of the earth. The damage that has been done to these people will take a thousand years to reverse the effects.
One of my groomsmen for my wedding is from Armenia. Needless to say he does not like Turks very much. His family though, no matter what wrongdoings have been done against them are devout Christians and beleive in forgiving those who have harmed them. They harbor no hatred against anyone. They are outstanding people who have family bonds and work harder than any other ethnic groups I have ever seen.
On another note, I recall the United States pushing forward to recognize the genocide but Turkey said that they would invade Iraq and begin attacking Kurdish rebels. The United States almost immediately dropped any and all recognition. Anyways some good books to read about the Armenian Genocide are-
The Godless and the Infidels
Forty Days of Musa Dagh
Taner Ackam: A Shameful Act
They are all very informative books and provide crazy storylines.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:11:12 GMT -5
Melty,
Are you aware that the Turkish government funds American universities to churn out all kinds of anti Armenian propaganda that negates the Armenian genocide ever happening? Now malaka what business does the Turkish government have funding history departments in the United States?
Are you also aware that the book Forty Days of Musa Dagh was supposed to be made into a Disney movie? You know why it never came out? The Turkish government had a shit fit. No movie!
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 0:11:57 GMT -5
What Armenians say about Kosovo is irrelevant to the genocide that happened 90 years ago. We are talking about the systematic killing of a group of people. Who were forced into death marches. The Nazi put the jews into Labor Camps knowing very well they were not going to survive but just torturing them to their dying day. Same with the Armenians The Turks/ottomans knew very well that the people were not going to survive these marches and that was there plan to kill them by subjecting them to the most hideous and inhumane treatment possible to say the least.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:12:10 GMT -5
Oh... how honorable of them... I wonder if they will want to apologize for the slaughter of Ottoman Muslims by Christian groups like Armenians, Greeks, Serbs and Russians? The depopulation of over a quarter of Muslim Ottomans from the Balkans, the genocide committed by their biggest Christian ally, Russia, on the Circassian population, Tartar population?
Or the Muxhahir movement whereby thousands of Albanian Muslims, Turks, and others were kicked out from their native lands and deported to Turkey?
It matters plenty. Because their mentality today is indicative of their mentality 100 years ago. They openly attacked the eastern border of the Ottoman Empire, with the help of their Russian brothers, ensuing the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Muslim Ottomans, just like the same was happening in Kosovo, Macedonia and all over Rumelia by Serbs, Greeks and others. The Armenians never had a population strong enough to have their own state on it. Muslims dominated everywhere and so they forged a nation out of ethnic cleansings, just like Greeks were trying to do in southern Albania.
Like I said, you promote the Armenians, you spit on the suffering of Albanians, like the Muxhahirs.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:13:43 GMT -5
Melty,
Just thought I would bring it to your attention that Armenians have nothing to do with Kosovo. Find me somewhere or some link or whatever that is an Armenian bashing Kosovo and Albanians. If you find me one I will send you a nickel in the mail.
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 0:16:49 GMT -5
What suffering did the Albanians endure because of the Armenians please inform us all we are guying to know?
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:19:27 GMT -5
Oh... how honorable of them... I wonder if they will want to apologize for the slaughter of Ottoman Muslims by Christian groups like Armenians, Greeks, Serbs and Russians? The depopulation of over a quarter of Muslim Ottomans from the Balkans, the genocide committed by their biggest Christian ally, Russia, on the Circassian population, Tartar population? Or the Muxhahir movement whereby thousands of Albanian Muslims, Turks, and others were kicked out from their native lands and deported to Turkey? How can I respond to this? You are not even from the same planet as me, and I cannot see your side of the story. You are an alien to side with Turks like this.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:22:05 GMT -5
It has plenty. It was the general backstabbing and slaughter committed by Christians in the Ottoman Empire against the Muslim populations in order to create their artificial states on them. Serbia did this in what is today its southern borders, where dozens of thousands of Albanians were deported to Turkey or were pushed increasingly south. Greeks attempted this in southern Albania, pushing the Muslims out in order to make it Christian majority and claim it as theirs, and Armenia did the same on Turkey's eastern border in order to carve out an ethnic state.
Albanians and other Balkan Muslims suffered tremendous population loss as a result of these. Turkey as well since it had to deal with simultaneous invasions from west and east (much like Albania). Armenians were a nuisance on the eastern border, a threat to the local population and in turn suffered by acting as a nuisance.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:25:01 GMT -5
What suffering did the Albanians endure because of the Armenians please inform us all we are guying to know? Armenians suffered the same powers that empowered Serbia to act in Kosovo empowered them to act against Muslim Ottomans on the eastern border of Turkey. They, like Serbia, were acting as puppets of same power: Russia, and acted with intense hatred against Muslims. I wonder if you asked an Armenian 100 years ago whether Kosovo should belong to Serbia or remain Albania, what he would say?
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 0:25:28 GMT -5
So being a political nu since justify the killing of one million people woman and children and elderly people. The Jews were a nuisance in the eyes of the Nazis so i guess killing them is justified also?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:28:49 GMT -5
Jews werent a niusance, they were an active part of German society. They contributed to all corners of German society: banking, art, entertainment, industry, government. Most, if not all, were proud Germans who fought in WWI with pride. There is a clear difference between what happened to the Armenians and the Jews in Germany. One group suffered revenge, the other scapegoat.
The fact is all the Christian Balkan entities (Serbians, Greeks and Armenians) acted with a single frame of thought against a particular group: Muslim Ottomans. They held the same view, same ideas and motivates, same strategies. The difference is that the Armenians lost big time and suffered for it... You know what? Too fukin bad. Or will you tell me now of the "tragedy" suffered by Serbs after the Kosovo war?
Oh and go to Kosovo or Ilirida and mention the Armenian genocide, see whether they support Turkey or the Armenians. Im quite confident of the results you'll get.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:30:37 GMT -5
Like I said, an Albanian who says that the Armenians suffered is an Albanian who is spitting on the suffering of his own people during that very same period.
If you placed Albanians back on that eastern border of the Ottoman Empire, I guarantee you they would not have defended the "poor little Armenians"...
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:31:35 GMT -5
"""""It was the general backstabbing and slaughter committed by Christians in the Ottoman Empire against the Muslim populations in order to create their artificial states on them.""""""
Are you implying that the Ottoman Empire was not an artificial state? Surely something must have been wrong if all of these Ottoman subjects were trying destroy the empire and carve out their own states. Why were they willing to die to have their own states? Please try to make sense! Also what loyalty did Ottoman subjects owe to the Ottoman empire? They were treated as slaves.
""""Albanians and other Balkan Muslims suffered tremendous population loss as a result of these. Turkey as well since it had to deal with simultaneous invasions from west and east (much like Albania). Armenians were a nuisance on the eastern border, a threat to the local population and in turn suffered by acting as a nuisance. """""
So if Armenians, Serbs, Greeks and whoever are not allowed to have their own state or country do you beleive that we should now sit back and allow Kosovo to exist? Your a hypocrite dude. Pull your head out of your ass you make no sense.
KEEEEP STUDDDDDYING MALAAAAAAKAAAA YOU ARE GETTING SMAAAAAARRRRRTEEER.
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 0:33:45 GMT -5
Again you support Muslims and Armenians would support the christian Serbs which is why we have so many wars but the ottoman actions were absolutely grotesque to kill more then one million non combatant population is evil and the ottomans did this which is why there was a genocide sure there is killing on both sides likes the jewish resistance in WW2 but they were fighting soldiers the didn't start annihilating every German in their line of sight.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:37:17 GMT -5
An artificial state means a state created in the modern era by forces involving active and mindful creation of demographic, state and territory defined by a synchronic, rather than diachronic way (France today started over a thousand years ago and grew however way it did, Israel is artificial).
Everyone has the right to their own nation, provided they can populate it and organize it into a common identity. Armenians couldnt do that since they didnt have such a concentrated population. They were all over the place with Turks being majority in most areas... if not Turks, Kurds. What right do they have to expell or slaughter the existing population in order to forge their own? Same happened with Kosovo. Serbs came into it in the modern era in 1912 when the popualtion didnt agree with their state.
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Post by insomniac on Jul 31, 2009 0:39:51 GMT -5
Whatever Melty said is true of geopolitics. But we shouldnt carried away in the face of human suffering. My message is: every innocent dying/abused/persecuted or whatever is wrong. I'm a big advocate of freedom and libertarianism.
Of course, i dont feel much connection to Armenians today given the fact that they are tools of Russians. They are being used for Russian interests. And in that issue i would rather avoid them and pick my friends.
If a genocide did happen, than it should be recognized for being so. Vice-versa as well.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:41:10 GMT -5
"""""Jews werent a niusance, they were an active part of German society. They contributed to all corners of German society: banking, art, entertainment, industry, government.""""""
Melty,
I think you need to read up on the Armenians. The Armenians were called the Loyal Millet. They were bankers, Artists, entertainment, top dogs in the economy, and they were also active contributors to the Ottoman military. What happened to them was very much the same as what happened to the Jews.
Yes dude your right it is too fukin bad what happened to them. But Turkeys turn will come and guess what? WE WILL ALL SIT BACK AND SAY TOO FUKIN BAD.
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