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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:44:07 GMT -5
Yea, until Russia told them to attack the Turks and they will receive their own state. Thats when things changed. The massacres didnt happen for no reason. Anger had built up to allow it to happen.
The total population of both Armenia and Greece arent a quarter of what the Turkish population is... the Armenian economy is piss poor and pathetic, worse yet for them Turkey has as ally and friend all of its neighbors, who are themselves hostile to Armenia. Gass pipelines, trains, everything seems to pass over Armenia. It has even asked Turkey to remove border restrictions. Turkey is also one of the major places for Armenians to immigrate to...
Yea... 'Turkey's turn'...
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 0:45:36 GMT -5
Turks wanted to annihilate these people much as the Serbs wanted to annihilate the Albanians from kosovo. Turks came from central Asia and conquered th indigenous people the kurds and the Armenians Serbs came from Russia and conquered the indigounes people the Albanians. Armenians wanted independence and they got genocide in 1915. Albanians in kosovo wanted to be part of the new albania in 1912 they got ethnic cleaning.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:48:51 GMT -5
I don't know where I heard this saying.... "A drowning man pulls out his own hair."
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:49:34 GMT -5
Equating what happened to the Armenians with what happened to us is useless, Albanians were among the most active contributors to the Ottoman Empire. If we were the soldiers on the eastern border, I guarantee you the Armenians would not have had any better experiences... perhaps worse, since we are far more capable than the Kurds. In fact, Sultan Abdulhamid actually had plans to have Albanians police parts of Anatolia.
What occurred to us falls in line with the general actions of Balkan Christians in the Ottoman Empire.
So go ahead, patriot, spit on the Muxhahirs and all they endured... I guess the Serbs were right to do what they did.
But like I said, say what you said here in Kosova or Ilrida.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:52:35 GMT -5
Yea, until Russia told them to attack the Turks and they will receive their own state. Thats when things changed. The massacres didnt happen for no reason. Anger had built up to allow it to happen. The total population of both Armenia and Greece arent a quarter of what the Turkish population is... the Armenian economy is piss poor and pathetic, worse yet for them Turkey has as ally and friend all of its neighbors, who are themselves hostile to Armenia. Gass pipelines, trains, everything seems to pass over Armenia. It has even asked Turkey to remove border restrictions. Turkey is also one of the major places for Armenians to immigrate to... Yea... 'Turkey's turn'... Melty, such sarcasm! You think Turkey will remain forever a power? Wow, surely you need to read history. You speak so confidently about Turkeys continued dominance in our region. Are you aware that Turkey is surrounded by extremely unstable countries? Are you aware that none of these countries are fond of Turkey?
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 0:53:51 GMT -5
Its geopolitics like insomniac said but no one has the right and its not justified by any reason to holocaust a people because they don't fit in your plans. What im saying is that there was a genocide and this is a fact and an accpeted fact by most of the respectable scholars and intellectuals of today and to deny it is ignorant and hateful.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:54:31 GMT -5
Albpatriot,
Melty is an alien, this is why we do not understand him. I guess with his logic Kosovo is an artificial state and they deserve exactly what happened to the Armenians.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 0:58:33 GMT -5
Melty you never answered my question about Turkeys funding of American universities to churn out anti armenian propaganda. YOu also never gave an opinion on Turkey and their repression of Disney making a movie about the Forty Days of Musa Dagh (GREAT BOOK FRIGGIN READ IT).
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 0:58:50 GMT -5
Its geopolitics like insomniac said but no one has the right and its not justified by any reason to holocaust a people because they don't fit in your plans. What im saying is that there was a genocide and this is a fact and an accpeted fact by most of the respectable scholars and intellectuals of today and to deny it is ignorant and hateful. I disagree, I think that there was no active and premeditated genocide. I think certain ethnic cleansing are genocide in favor of stopping violence and war in an area. Armenians attacked Turks and could no longer be trusted... so a resettlement was done that went wrong and many suffered. However to put so much attention on one suffering rather than put attention on both equally, as we should. But you have fallen victim to western Christian propaganda that puts attention only on Christian suffering, ignoring the other side. And I disgree, there is not yet any real consensus on the Armenian case. yea, I really trust Disney to make a movie on such a touchy subject... what will it be an Imax experience? What about Armenian lobbies crushing any attempt to have a post-show dialogue by different sides? What about them paying off politicians to take up their cause or paying the media to put attention on them?
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 31, 2009 1:03:48 GMT -5
Also some quotes and facts about the Armenian genocide. When Hitler first proposed his final solution, he was told that the world would never permit such a mass murder. Hitler silenced his advisers by asking, "Who remembers the Armenians?" . That is a quite funny quote. Hitler remembers, Lemkin remembers, the Western/European nations remember, and you remember too. Who is left out? The Turks recall, but bulk of people living in Turkey has different way of interpreting the events. For example, about 5-6 million Ottoman civilians were exterminated whilst 7-8 million Ottoman Muslims were forced to flee to Anatolia between 1783-1922. Those people did not only embody Turk and Turkics, but also other populations, such as Bosnians, Albanians (as Avlonyali Bey correctly points out), Pomaks, Muslim Greeks, Circassians, Chechens, Abazin, Ignush peoples, and Kurds. Who did initiate this process?The European/Western states. Who remembers those Muslim victims now? Obviously not the ones who still promote the idea of the "Armenian Genocide" as the first genocide of the 20th Century. Was there any serious threat arising from the Ottoman Armenians during the WWI? As far as what happened during the wars of 1877-1878 and 1912-1913 is concerned, one could easily conclude that there was: In 1877 and 1878 the Russians made use in Bulgaria of all the tactics they had perfected in the Caucasus. Their official agents were the Cossacks and sometimes other army units. To these were joined Bulgarian revolutionaries and Bulgarian peasants eager to seize the lands, crops and cattle of the Turks. The tactics were once again those of state terror. In a typical Turkish village, Cossacks would disarm the villagers, then surround the village and shoot all but a few who tried to escape. Hemmed in, the Turks were attacked by Bulgarians, who murdered the inhabitants... The scenes recorded by European diplomats equal any pictures of inhumanity and horror in history....www.humanities.ualberta.ca/ottoman/module4/lecture4.htmDetailed eyewitness reports collected by British diplomats revealed a more complex pattern of attack in which both Russian Cossacks and local Bulgarians drove out Bulgarian Muslims. One of the most striking examples came from Balvan, a village in north central Bulgaria. British Vice Consul Edmund Calvert collected much of the evidence about Balvan from Muslim refugees who escaped to the south. The war reached Balvan when Cossacks arrived on July 7 and demanded that residents surrender their arms. The villagers complied, but the next day two more squadrons of Cossacks arrived, this time accompanied by two thousand to three thousand Bulgarians from nearby villages, armed with hatchets, clubs, and guns. The mob plundered the village, taking away cattle and seizing valuables. "They then set the village on fire," driving those who tried to escape " back into the flames." All the while, "the Cossacks, who formed an outer cordon around the village, looked on quietly." The attack on Balvan was not unique. Similar attacks were made on villages both north and south of the Balkan mountain range. As Cossacks surrounded the village of Btikltimtik, Bulgarians took the men to a barn, which they set on fire, shooting at those who tried to escape. On July 29, only days before Turkish troops recaptured the village, Bulgarians and Cossacks set fire to houses containing the village's women and children. soc.world-journal.net/pastblanket.htmlThe Armenian Genocide is sometimes wrongly referred to as ‘the first European genocide of the twentieth century’. Yet in the Balkan wars of 1912-1913, the Christian states of Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Montenegro partitioned the Ottoman territories in Europe and slaughtered or expelled much of the Muslim population in the process. As the journalist Leon Trotsky, who reported on the Balkan Wars, wrote at the time, ‘the Bulgars in Macedonia, the Serbs in Old Serbia, in their national endeavour to correct data in the ethnographical statistics that are not quite favourable to them, are engaged quite simply in systematic extermination of the Muslim population in the villages, towns and districts[.]’ The ethnic cleansing practised by the Christian Balkan states acted as a decisive influence on the CUP to adopt similar methods. www.henryjacksonsociety.org/stories.asp?id=301These acts of killing and explusion culminated in the Balkan Wars of 1912-13, when Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria and Montenegro finally destroyed the Ottoman Empire in Europe. According to Justin McCarthy (Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922, Darwin Press, Princeton, 1996, p. 164), the Balkan Wars resulted in the death of 27% of the Muslim population of the Ottoman territories conquered by the Christian Balkan states - 632,408 people.[/i] henryjacksonsociety.org/stories.asp?pageid=49&id=691Why did the Armenians were deported?Let us recall by using Western Sources: Nov. 15 1914 - Turks defeat Russian battalion at copper mine south of Batumi, but Russian Turkestan Corps reinforced the Caucasus Corps, resumed offensive. Russians gave supplies to a volunteer Armenian division, raised from the 1 million Armenians living in Russia, that raided the region and killed 120,000 Turkish civilians. On Nov. 30, the Czar inspected the front and praised the Armenian Catholicos, saying "a brilliant future awaits the Armenians." history.sandiego.edu/gen/ww1/1915b.htmlIn that documentary you watched, did anyone mention those 120.00 Turks exterminated in late 1914 and early 1915? Did anybody say anything about the Armenian Militias fighting in tandem with Russian troops?Another large democide component is that calculated for the Armenian irregulars with Russian forces when they invaded Turkey. These irregulars no doubt massacred Moslem Turks and Kurds in retaliation for the Turk massacres of Armenians reported in Chapter 5.2 But how many? The only sources I could find on this were from Moslem Turk and Iranian sources (lines 101 and 102), neither inclined to be even-handed about Armenians. Note that the one from a former Iranian Ambassador to Turkey (line 102) gives a figure of over 600,000 Kurds killed in the Eastern vilayets of Turkey, or almost 58 percent of all Moslem Kurd and Turk deaths in six Eastern vilayets, including those dead from disease and famine during the war.3www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP12.HTMHe coined the term "genocide" for extermination of the Jews, in order to draw comparison, he utilized the idea of "Terrible Turk" commonly used as a tool in the West. For example, although Belgium exterminated 10-15 million civilians in Congo between 1890s-1910s, he did not interpret these events as "genocide". Instead, he named the Africans as some savages, and stressed that the colonization of Africans and native Americans was a necessary step to be taken to civilize the savages. He was quite a pioneer indeed! Recently in 21st Century, the US and the Western/European allies invaded a foriegn country (namely Iraq), and dierctly and indirectly killed more than a million peoples. What is that really? That is only the tip of an iceberg in terms of number of such crimes perpetriated by the Western/European states since the Modern Ages.
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 1:06:00 GMT -5
I was equating us to a suffering minority by a bigger power in this case Serbians the invaders and the Turks the invaders so its more then appropriate to compare the two. and avlonyali bey Ismail Enver one of the three perpetrators of the Armenian holocaust supposedly had an Albanian peasant mother en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0smail_Enver#cite_note-1 i became sick when i saw that and i coudnt believe it but reading your posts here its hard not to!
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 1:12:32 GMT -5
Enough of this bs who invades who, by 1900, people had been firmly fixed in their lands for hundreds of years by then. It was their land, the Armenians dont get anymore credit than any other group. Stop trying to excuse their actions in the same way Serbs or Greeks do... your not from any of these groups. Note Serbs argue that Albanians in Kosovo dont pre-date the Ottoman invasion and therefore can rightfuly be cleansed from it... do you agree with that as well?
Serbs invaded Kosovo yea, but in the time of the Armenian events, the Armenians attacked the Turkish Muslim population. They actively slaughtered and depopulated regions so as to justify making it their own. They justify if also by saying that it was their land before Ottoman times, same thing Serbs or Greeks argue. That killing is right if the victim doesnt predate a particular period.
Ive heard he was of Jewish origin or of Gypsy origin. If in fact he was part Albanian, Ill say Im damn proud that he is.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 1:12:59 GMT -5
""""""""In fact, that is only the tip of an iceberg in terms of number of such crimes perpetriated by the Western/European states since the Modern Ages."""""""""
Not to burst your bubble but the Western European states have absolutely nothing to do with the Armenian genocide. Leave the west out of it.
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Post by insomniac on Jul 31, 2009 1:13:24 GMT -5
albpatriot, you have to consider different point of views such as the one presented by Spirit of Tartary. I doubt a documentary alone would make somebody knowledgeable about what happened.
That guy you posted{Ismail Enver) does look very Albanian. Looks like he took from his mothers side.
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Post by monsterofsouli on Jul 31, 2009 1:17:43 GMT -5
""""""yea, I really trust Disney to make a movie on such a touchy subject... what will it be an Imax experience? What about Armenian lobbies crushing any attempt to have a post-show dialogue by different sides? What about them paying off politicians to take up their cause or paying the media to put attention on them?"""""""
Stephen Spielbergian!!!!
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 1:19:59 GMT -5
Genocide means the intent to exterminate a selective group of people. What the Americans did in Iraq is topple a dictator and said you can build a democracy and we will help you do that and without dought in the process the Americans took a lot of oil and will take a lot of oil for the years to come. But the Muslims are the one blowing each other up over who's Sunni or shia that is on there hands they are the one killing each other in the name of allah.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 1:20:09 GMT -5
Another book I looked into said Circassian (Cherkez) and Albanian.. so he might actually have been so. Not so unexpected. Albanians were among the most contributory people to the Ottoman realm. From poets (Mesihi Pristineli) to Veziers (Kuprili family, Avlonyali family, of which Ismail Qemali Bey Vlora was a member of, among numerous others).
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Post by insomniac on Jul 31, 2009 1:22:44 GMT -5
I have a question for Tartar.
What's the historical relations between Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia? Basically, the transcaucasian countries and even central asian(?
I want to know who has been historical foes and friends?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 1:25:00 GMT -5
Today Armenia and Azerbajzan are head to head for Nagharo/Karabagh, an Armenian self-declared state within Azerbajzan. Azeris are close together with Turkey and apparently Georgia and Armenia are also butting heads.
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 31, 2009 1:26:46 GMT -5
Spirit of tartray certainly there have been many genocides throughout the world native Americans and the TRAIL OF TEARS comes to mind but lets just stick to one genocide at a time.
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