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Post by insomniac on Jul 31, 2009 1:32:22 GMT -5
Today Armenia and Azerbajzan are head to head for Nagharo/Karabagh, an Armenian self-declared state within Azerbajzan. Azeris are close together with Turkey and apparently Georgia and Armenia are also butting heads. Interesting. And how do they relate to Russia? Im guessing Armenia has good relations with Russia and Georgia might join Azerbaijan and Turkey against Armenia?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 1:33:58 GMT -5
Armenia is pretty much a Russian puppet in the area since without Russia they would have been toast. The very reason why Turkey and Azerbajzan havnt acted against Naragho/Karabagh is because of Russia.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 1:35:40 GMT -5
Spirit of tartray certainly there have been many genocides throughout the world native Americans and the TRAIL OF TEARS comes to mind but lets just stick to one genocide at a time. Hypocritical. The very people who promote these documentaries deny the other major massacres and brutalities. Like Democratic Jewish-Americans who promote the Armenian case but defend Israel's rights.
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Post by insomniac on Jul 31, 2009 1:38:18 GMT -5
Russia does want to gain access to these areas (make them puppet state). Ever since Catherine the Great expansions there. Access to warm sea(Baltics and the Caspian), warm weather.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 31, 2009 1:58:37 GMT -5
Not to burst your bubble but the Western European states have absolutely nothing to do with the Armenian genocide. Leave the west out of it. That is what they wish so. However, it is not the correct way of interpetating of history. If one asks them, they might even tell that they are the ultimate version of an advanced cultural formation. Now tell me: How could an advanced culture exterminate hundreds of millions since the Modern Ages? How could an advanced culture possess tens of thousands of weapons of mass destruction? How could an advanced culture lead the world to the verge an enviromental disaster?
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 31, 2009 2:30:41 GMT -5
I have a question for Tartar. What's the historical relations between Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia? Basically, the transcaucasian countries and even central asian(? I want to know who has been historical foes and friends? There was no Armenia when Ottomans conquered the region. In fact, Armenia was sometimes independent kingdoms in Eastern Anatolia, but mostly those were the vassals of the Roman and Byzantine, Turkish, Russian and Persian Empires. However, there were Armenian peoples all over Anatolia when Seljuk Turks arrived, and Armenians kept on proliferating all over Anatolia during the Ottoman Era. Azerbaijan is what is left from Khanate of Yerevan, which was the khanate of the descendants of the Seljuk Turks who conquered the region back in 11th Century. Today, Azerbaijan has tough relations with Armenia. Azeri Turks were used to be called as the Tatars even in early 20th Century, and in early 19th Century, Azeri Turks and local Muslims used to constitute the majority in Yerevan (now the capital of Armenia). Why this happened? As the Crimean Khanate was annexed by Russia in 1783 following the war of 1768-1772, the Khanate's principilaties in Cuacasus also feel into the Russian control within less than a century. The first genocidal act took place within days of the declaration of Crimea's annexation by Tsarina Catherine II. At the end of April 1783, several thousand Crimean Tatar intellectuals, military officers and clergy were rounded up in Karasubazar and killed. The whole early 1800s marked a period of genocide and ethnic cleansing targeting the Crimean Tatars and aiming at wiping out their culture, intellectual heritage as well as physical presence from the Crimean Peninsula.[2] Following the Crimean War (1853-1856), by the summer of 1860, the flight of Tatars from the terror in Crimea had turned the once flourishing peninsula into a "torched earth" landscape.[3]users.jyu.fi/~aphamala/pe/2004/terrorism.htmEarly in 19th Century, today's Dagestan was fully annexed, then Russians invaded today's Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. Back then the region was a part of the Qajar dynasty of Iran. That dynasy was another Turkish dynasy of the Seljuk Turks of Iran. After the Crimean War, the Circassians, Karachay-Balkars, Kumyks, Nogais, Chechens, Abazins, Inghus got the hit of the Russians, and roughly 1.5 million of them were forced to flee to the Ottoman Empire whilst hundreds of thousands of them died due to violence, hunger and disease on their way. In the meantime, the Russians encouraged Ottoman Armenians to settle in Caucasus near Yerevan. In a time less than a century, the Russian Armenia's population reached more one million level, and the Ottoman Armenians started actively supporting the Russian policies in the region after the war of 1877-1878. What happened first to the Crimean Tatars, stroke next the Circassians in the 1860s. An unprecedented genocide and wave of terror aimed at emptying the whole Caucasus from Circassians. Russia started a mass expulsion in Circassia in 1860, with catastrophic consequences. Unlike the Tatars, who chose the exile and fled from the dar al-harb, the Circassians put up armed resistance, fortified their capital, Sochi, and made appeals to Turkey and the West to gain recognition for independent Circassia. After having forcibly halted the exodus of Crimean Tatars, in 1862, Russia launched terror campaign, massacres and targeted famine against Circassians, and by May 1864, the Circassian resistance movement had been crushed. In 1865, Russia spread the terror campaign against Chechens. By the 1880s, more than three million Circassians (up to 90 % of the population) as well as hundreds of thousands of Chechens, Abkhazians, Georgian Muslims and other Caucasians had been forced to emigrate to Turkey in the proportionally most massive ethnic cleansing of the time. The number of those directly killed has not been properly investigated.users.jyu.fi/~aphamala/pe/2004/terrorism.htmToday the Russian province of Erivan is the main part of the Armenian Republic but in the 1820s Turkish Muslims made up the majority of its population. The Armenian population whose descendants would live in the Armenian Republic were in the 1820s scattered over the Caucasus and eastern Anatolia. In 1826, the Russians began a great forced exchange of population that was to create an Armenia in Erivan and cause great suffering to both the Turks and Armenians The ongoing exchange of population changed the demographic picture of the East and caused great hardship and hatred on both sides. If blame were to be assigned to anyone it would be to the Russian imperialists, but the hatred that developed was between the Muslims and the Armenians. By the end of the nineteenth century sides had been drawn... As the Russians advanced both Turks and Armenians were gradually drawn into the conflict that had its bloody conclusion in the First World War. (pp.334,5)www.humanities.ualberta.ca/ottoman/module4/lecture4.htmFor the reasons explained above, Armenians have tough relations with Azeris, and other Cuacasus Muslims since they were the Russian allies since the mid 19th Century. The Georgians were always around and they had their kingdoms too, and Gerogia was mostly a place of interest for bigger empires like the Persian, Roman, Ottoman and Russian ones. Russia annexed Gerogia in early 19th Century, and remained there until 1990s. Today, Turkey and Azerbaijan have friendly relations with Georgia whilst Armenia has some problems due to Armenian claims on some portion of Georgia.
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Lib-Fier
Amicus
Bricklayer 'works for meals'
Posts: 1,092
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Post by Lib-Fier on Jul 31, 2009 3:40:08 GMT -5
interesting read indeed, there's always two sides to every story.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jul 31, 2009 3:50:05 GMT -5
That guy you posted{Ismail Enver) does look very Albanian. Looks like he took from his mothers side. He gas albanian name and surname too... ;D ;D
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Aris
Amicus
Greek Troll
Posts: 832
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Post by Aris on Jul 31, 2009 6:25:53 GMT -5
The Turks are more victims than this Armenians(a milkshake of Georgians and Iranians) !
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 13:42:10 GMT -5
The Turks are more victims than this Armenians(a milkshake of Georgians and Iranians) ! +1
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Post by leshte on Jul 31, 2009 14:03:14 GMT -5
I put it like this. I as an Albanian, as long as Armenia is so closely allied to a power, Russia, that has persistently backed the eradication of Albanians from the Balkans (Kosova included) am copmpletley neutral about what the Turks did to the Armenians. Their alliance to those who seek the doom of our nation speaks volumes to what they think about us. That is they do not care about us. I reciprocate the feeling they have towards us.
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 31, 2009 15:02:43 GMT -5
cmon...are you guys serious ?! of course they have to align with russia. What other choice do they have ? Man are you ppl insensitive...
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Post by leshte on Jul 31, 2009 16:22:42 GMT -5
Well are they sensitive towards us? I don't think so. Its all about reciprocation.
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 31, 2009 16:26:27 GMT -5
who...the russians or the armenians ? For someone that says the serbs massacred your ppl, you show have a funny way of sympathizing with other ethnic groups that had it a LOT worse..
anyway..
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Post by leshte on Jul 31, 2009 16:33:30 GMT -5
The Armenians. I don't see any Armenians sympathise with the Albanians since we were massacred. Why should we be the ones to care about them when they don't care about us. Since we're talking about prosecution and massacres now I feel for the Kurds. They are a defenceless people. Their struggle needs to be heard.
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 31, 2009 16:46:00 GMT -5
i dont know if you noticed...but the armenians have enough problems of their own. They are landlocked and turkey is blocking them from any effective trade. Let be realistic...what exactly do you want them to say ?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 31, 2009 16:49:03 GMT -5
The Armenians. I don't see any Armenians sympathise with the Albanians since we were massacred. Why should we be the ones to care about them when they don't care about us. Since we're talking about prosecution and massacres now I feel for the Kurds. They are a defenceless people. Their struggle needs to be heard. On the contrary, most Armenians probably sympathize with Serbia since they support their Christian brethren. Hell, even though Kosovo's declaration and recognition is in their favor, they havnt recognized it. Good for Turkey, let the bastards starve. And hopefully the Azeris will reclaim their lost Naragho-Karabagh.
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Post by insomniac on Jul 31, 2009 16:55:13 GMT -5
The Armenians. I don't see any Armenians sympathise with the Albanians since we were massacred.
I havent met any to judge. The virtual ones insult us. Turkey is a pretty big country though and has a lot of influence.
Turkic minority in Russia is extremely discriminated against as well. Keep that into account.
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Post by leshte on Jul 31, 2009 17:03:40 GMT -5
I think its easy for them to figure out what to say. Until they distance themselves from backing the massacres towards the Albanians I will reciprocate their feelings. It is easier for them since our suffering is recent. There's plenty of video footage and the whole world was there to see. There's no excuse.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Aug 1, 2009 4:31:08 GMT -5
Of course Armenians sympathize with Serbs. My father knew this Armenian guy who was under the impression that my pig-eating and raki-drinking father was a Christian. "Now that communism is dead, time has come for the Muslims. I would kill them all, one by one, with a blade" he said to my father. Relentless hatred, and their sympathy with Serbs isn't just because they have to because of their alliance with Russia, but really a cordial support to the point where Armenia refuses to recognize Kosova, even though it would be convenient for them to do so, considering the similiar position the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh find themselves in.
This doesn't mean I support the genocide of 1915 ... but I think one side of the story has been left out, namely the preceeding massacres and genocide on Turks and Kurds perpetrated by Armenians under the guidance and assistance of Russia. This has been totally and unjustly ignored in many western debates concerning this historical period, which is really shameful.
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