donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 1, 2008 11:19:06 GMT -5
It is exactly what you're trying to do. Nah man definatley not trying to justify anything all I have done is tried to look at it from another angle, Massacres,War crimes etc are a part of the Chaos that War brings I dont like it nor do you but nevertheles it is a reality. And I am not only talking about the conficts between us I am talking about all wars past and present. Massacres etc have been a reality of all Wars wether commited by Armys or Paramilitarys or even Civilians it is the reality, no matter how much the world governments tries to sanitize war for the public. And this sanitization has succeded as people generaly accept that Soldiers are there to fight and die (fair enough) but a soldier who is tortured executed etc seems to be ok and esier to swallow for the masses the sanitization I am talking about has dehumanitised the soldier on the ground. So I do stand by my point that there are consequenses to War and civilian casualtys intentional or not are a reality of War. I am not saying its right I am merly being realistic. Actually, whether your intention is or is not to justify, the reasoning you make is that of an apologist. "It happens in all wars" i.e. get over it. True, collateral damage is part of a war. Except this wasn't a case of civilians being "in the way"; it was, as many contemporary correspondents (including Serbs) made clear, a conscious attack against the Albanian civilians with the intention of cleansing Kosova from this 'unwanted foreign elements'. It was a systematic killing machinery at work here attempting at inflicting as much damage as possible. That is not collateral damage. And to say that "it happens in all wars" is false. Self-restraint is possible in wars. A clear example of this is how the Albanians responded to this savagery. In 1915, the retreating Serbian Army was a sitting duck during its march through the Albanian highlands. While it is true many of the local highlanders denied their own menace assistance such as shelter and food, this is the least they could have done. Or to quote Edith Durham; " That they suffered great hardships on the way, is because they fled through districts which they had completely pillaged and devestated barely two years before. That the Albanians spared the lives of the retreating Serbs who had previously shown them no mercy, is to their honour." Personally, in retrospect, while I admire this chivalry of our predecessors, i also see that it has gone unrewarded. And while I do not wish to inflict damage on Serbian civilians the way Serbs have massacred Albanian women and children, I would not have hesitated to eliminate the same army which had previously massacred the Albanians indiscriminately. The Albanian way, i.e. the code of not touching women and children, was preserved despite of the Serbs & Montenegrins not honoring the same code (due to lack of it in your culture I suspect). In 1919, the Kosova Comittee explicitly guided the Kosovar Albanian rebels known as "kaçaks" to not harm any Serb besides those standing with arms against the common cause. The Serbian response? After the rebellion was crushed, between the years 1919-21, some 12,371 had been killed, 22,110 imprisoned and 6,000 houses burned down. Self-restraint is possible, and our ancestors showed that this was possible even after enduring such hardships. A clar example is the Rugova district. This mountainous territory near Peja had always been a cradle of resistance. In 1919, like in the rest of Kosova, a local rebellion ensued. It was crushed the same year by a combined Serbian-Montenegrin force with modern arms. Then the revenge on the locals started. Although many were men, most of the victims were actually children, women and elderlies. The Rugova district remained uninhabited for THREE years, since its population was severely decimated through massacres (and the rest fled to Albania or other parts of Kosova). I will not go deep into this, since it is a topic of its own, but I will illustrate how savage the Serbian retaliation against the Rugovans was; In the village of Shtupeq i Madh, some 83 people were burned alive in the house of Isuf Veseli, including 18 infants. Among the victims were Istref Shaban Beqiraj, 3 years old, Zekë Broçi, 4 years old, Xhemile Shaban Broçi, 4 years old, Faze Zenel Broçi, 99 years old, Hajrie Murat Broçi, 18 years old, etc. The manner in which some were massacred is mindblowing. Zyke Ibër Lajçi was for instance 23 years old and pregnant. She was killed with bayonetts, and her infant was cutt out by the Serb and Montenegrin soldiers. Here one can also mention the bravery of the women. The wife of Avdi Brahimi, Hajrija, was said to be one of the most beautiful ladies of Rugova. The Serbs wanted to abduct and rape her. Knowing their intention, she fled with a child to a nearby house and climbed up a pillar. Unable to bring her down, the Serbs burned her alive. The reason why I am mentioning these concrete examples is because one can relate to people when you read how they died, what their names were, their age. Simple statistics, like 30,000 dead, make people sometimes indifferent. The massacre of Rugova is just one example. In 1942, the Rugovans had the chance to retaliate against the Serb-Montenegrin inhabitants of nearby who had participated in the crimes against them. After having fenced off Chetnik attacks headed by Pavle Djurisic and Novica Popovic, the Albanians headed by Sak Faslia pursued their enemies to a nearby village. None of the men were to be found, however. All women and children. Not a single of them were touched ... the houses were burned though, in a sign of revenge for their own houses being burned. But murder and rape was not a part of this operation. This pretty much characterized all the Albanians of Kosova. Infact, as you will conclude irregardless what source you read (be it Serbian, Croatian, Albanian), the least Serbian casualties were suffered in Kosova. This despite that we, not the Croats or Bosniaks, had suffered the most under the Serbian yoke. We settled with expelling the Serbian colonists who had been brought here by the Yugoslav state from Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Croatia. Colonists who had been given land unjustly after their previous (Albanian) owners had that very land confiscated from them. In other words, self-restraint is possible, to be somewhat civil in war is possible, to avoid deliberately massacring a whole population while disregarding age or sex is possible. I do not deny that the Albanians have committed crimes as well. But I believe this is very much the result of us being treated unhumanely by you. In result, some Albanians responded the same way. But they were always a small minority. Whereas among Serbs and Montenegrins, it was pretty much the norm. Edith Durham was told by the Serbs themselves that the Albanians never touch women, hence no fear is to be expected from them in this department.
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Post by vinjak on Feb 1, 2008 19:05:58 GMT -5
Where do you see a apologist stance by me ? definatley not, my reasoning is that of a realist ? there is no doubt whatsoever that revenge was taken because of the collaboration with the Turks and many Serb Civilians had been massacred as Sh1 shonic highlighted. You mentioned that Women and children where never touched how could you say that with any degree of certainty ? how can you speak for everyone ? especialy when civilains take revenge after the armys move on, the truth is you cannot nor can you vouch for what the Albanians did to civilians while in collaboration with the Turks as I have said before Revenge has been sought not just by Serbs but by Albanians also, You mention by giving names and dates to the victims removes the coldness of statisticks and puts a human element to massacres and you are correct and for to long Serbs that have been massacred have also just been statistic's (to the rest of the world not to us) and to this day that is what they have remained.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Feb 1, 2008 21:48:05 GMT -5
AAdmin: Prvo ja ne razumijem albanski, drugo ja sam preveo jer sam mislio da si njima pisao (sa obzirom da su oni pisali u tome topiku prije tebe) a da to nijesi znao uraditi na engleskom. Ja ti vise necu prevoditi ne boj se. Engleski znam solidno (polozio sam TOEFL pre jedno 14 godina). Ja samo pisem Srpski jer imam pravo na to koliko i Albanci da pisu na Albanskom. Pola njih razumeju Srpski jezik samo se prave. Inace zovem se Nebojsa.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 2, 2008 2:37:17 GMT -5
A shonic neznas ti engleski sta pricas brate, ti si pravi srbin!! Samo pricas srpski i druge jezike ne valja!! Hajmo na traktoru da krenemo po smrdljerevu ajde bre gdeee si bre lele
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 2, 2008 7:09:17 GMT -5
Where do you see a apologist stance by me ? definatley not, my reasoning is that of a realist ? Do not act oblivious. As I said, whether your intention is or is not to sound like an apologist, you're doing exactly that. Why else drag other, irrelevant wars, into the discussion? Unless you aim to 'justify' it and condone it as the 'ugly, but normal part of war'. And why speak of revenge unless, again, trying to (sub)consciously justify the crimes perpetrated 1912-13? In your first reply to this thread you even said; ' it is harsh and looks like I am trying to justify' You did not write that without reason. Firstly, what did Sh1 highlight? I cannot read/understand Serbian. Secondly, what 'revenge'? Revenge implies an eye for an eye. This genocide was unprecedented, meaning we never did this to you. It cannot be justified with the word 'revenge'. Thirdly, to say you were taking revenge is to imply that we started it all. Wrong. The hostilities between the Albanian and Serbian communities began in the 1870s, after Serbia had driven away more than 60,000 Albanians from their homes in what is now Southern Serbia (Nis, Kursumlija, Prokuplje, Leskovac, Vranje, Tripolica etc) while massacring people along the way. And if you want to play that game, then one might go as far and say that anything we did to you was in revenge for Serbian crimes against Albanians during the Middle Age (e.g. Thomas Preljubovic etc). Furthermore, what Albanians did in 1912, they did as individuals, in groups and so forth. What the Serbs did in 1912-13 was institutional violence, the greatest form of evil seen uptil now in modern history (another example is Nazi Germany and its institutionalized violence against Europe's Jewry and Gypsy population). Exactly, I do not speak for everyone. But I speak for the overwhelming majority. You are unaware of the Albanian ways, hence I do not blame you for your skepticism. But Albanians of the past lived by a Code of Honour which was to be strictly maintained by each individual, each family, each clan. Not doing so was dishonorable, and losing one's honour was the worst thing ever. I will illustrate what I mean through one example. In 1878, one of the main Albanian organizers and leaders of the Prizren League, welcomed one Ottoman official into his home (he was popularly known as Maxhar pasha due to a misinterpretation of his German origins as Hungarian). A part of the Code of Honour is that a guest taken in by you is under your besa, hence you are obliged to defend him with your life if someone seeks to kill him while he is your guest. The Albanian leader was suddenly confronted by hundreds of angry Albanians seeking to kill Maxhar pasha for his attempt to infiltrate and destroy the League (which in itself wished to prevent the annexation of Albanian lands by our neighbours). Despite being a leader of the League, the Albanian could not hand over his guest. And so a fight ensued between him, his men, and the Albanians outside. It ended with both him and Maxhar pasha being killed. To someone like you, or anyone, this sounds strange. But when giving your word, you could not break it. Likewise, killing a woman was thought of as dishonorable. If a man was in a feud with another man, that man could not kill him as long as he was accompanied by a woman. This phenomenon, i.e. the reluctance to touch women or children, was routinely exploited by the Chetniks who thus concluded they had never to fear for their families. This is what Edith Durham wrote before she came to sympathize with the Albanian cause; " Savage as are the Albanians, I have been told repeatedly that they never assault women." Source: "Throughout the land of the Serb" 1912 was not "revenge". Revenge is committed by individuals or groups driven by emotions. A state is not an individual. It is an organized mechanism which acts rationally. What occured in 1912 was an expansion which not only added new territories to the Kingdom of the Serbs, but also alot of new minorities. This was an era of nationalism, and the Serbs feared the eventual consequences of having alot of non-Serb elements within their borders. Something needed to be done. "Revenge" was a mere excuse. Also, I did not say that revenge never occured. We're people too, and bad apples exist everywhere. But these were exceptions rather than the rule, because as I said, the Albanians of before were very much driven by social norms and laws evolving around the notion of honour. And a part of these rules included not touching women and children. That it occured nevertheless is a possibility, but these were isolated events condemned by the mainstream. The Rugova example is a clear one. As I said, figures speak for themselves. The LEAST Serbian casualties were suffered in Kosova of all places; the very region where Serbs had committed the most crimes and persecutions! I have never said that the Serbs haven't suffered. But to say we're even is false. We have never inflicted the same amount of damage on you as vice-versa. This due to two reasons. Firstly, we were never able since you always had the upper hand. Secondly, there were these social norms and rules which prevented us. On the other hand, despite not having a state to back them up, Chetniks and other Serb groups continued perpetrating crimes against civilians, especially against Muslim Bosniaks of Bosnia (e.g. Foca) & Sanjak. But you cannot blame us for what others have done to you, e.g. 'Velika Seoba' (where we actually fought on the same side). We have never committed something similiar to what you did us in 1912. Never.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Feb 2, 2008 7:45:32 GMT -5
A shonic neznas ti engleski sta pricas brate, ti si pravi srbin!! Samo pricas srpski i druge jezike ne valja!! Hajmo na traktoru da krenemo po smrdljerevu ajde bre gdeee si bre lele Well my English is quite well. Much better that your "maternji". Magyarul is beszelhetunk ha tudnal. Milaw kai Ellenika. Esi?
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Post by vinjak on Feb 2, 2008 17:50:11 GMT -5
This was never about who started it my point is that revenge inspired more revenge and in War time the strongest takes advantage of its position. Fortunatly for the Serbs you where never in that position unless you where allied with someone who could ie the Turks.
Also, I did not say that revenge never occured. We're people too, and bad apples exist everywhere. But these were exceptions rather than the rule
I have said many times you cannot reason like this in a time of War the man on the ground does not look at a massacred body and then reasons .."oh but this is not the norm" the anger overwhelms and any opurtunity that is presented will be taken, I cannot believe you do not understand this or what I am tring to get through here the Army is not comprimised of just one body of men that travel together in one long column like in the medieval times. Many will stumble upon a sceen of a masscre military and civilian none of them will reason like we can now... Albanian or Serb.
Likewise, killing a woman was thought of as dishonorable.
A while ago I asked you how many Albanian Women took up arms I think you said you didnt know exactly, I have seen many pictures here and elswhere of women who where combatants and thus legit targets and just because they hide there weapons and put on a apron does not make them civilian yet should they be found as a casualty it would be easy for anyone to paint a picture of how women where targeted..no ?
Secondly, what 'revenge'? Revenge implies an eye for an eye. This genocide was unprecedented, meaning we never did this to you. It cannot be justified with the word 'revenge'.
Again, you can reason like this now in hindsight, but at the time the average man cannot. I am guessing you have not had a taste of War (I appolagise if you have) but had you witnessed the madness, chaos, fear, smells,anger etc you would understand what I am getting at.
Self-restraint is possible,
Yes it is but its up to the individual to practise self restraint, Lets say you are in a bar drinking and someone walks up and in front of you grabs your girls breast what do you do ? well there are many options but you will act in the moment after you have beaten him to an inch of his life and while sitting in a Cell sobering up you know that you could have grabbed your girl and walked away this is what the law demands of you and you know it but did you follow the law ? I know you know what I am getting at here.
So no matter how you want to explain it or look at it, it is always the same "revenge and counter revenge"
Allie yourself to your neighbours foe, pick fights with the stronger side etc etc it will always lead to the cosequences of War and open the door to revenge hatred etc.
I am human but if I ever had a chance to get my hands on the Bastard that was pictured ripping off the crosses on churches during the riots my humanity would be put aside and someone would find this mutt and would be after me, and if he got hold of me one of mine would find me, and then go after him etc REVENGE AND COUNTER REVENGE does not matter who started it, and whilst this is a small circle that gets wider, add a War to this and the circle is now massive.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 3, 2008 9:33:07 GMT -5
I said it already, but you make me repeat myself. Revenge denotes an eye for an eye. What the Serbs perpetrated 1912 was UNPRECEDENTED, hence it was not revenge, but a conscious attempt at re-structuring the ethnic makeup of Kosova. Furthermore, revenge is committed by emotionally driven individuals or/and groups. Serbia, not just Serbs, committed these crimes with a clear intention, namely to drastically reduce the percentage of Albanians in the newly annexed territories.
And yes, the strongest do take advantage. And yet, even when we did have an advantage, the Albanians never committed something remotely similiar to what occured 1912.
Vinjak, you're speaking of paramilitary or guerrilla groups. This was the Serbian Army. There was some level of discipline there. Now, I could accept your excuse if we delt with a small figure of atrocities here and there. Yet this was a full-scale operation which cost the Albanians tens of thousands of lives in the Vilayet of Kosova alone (Serbs advanced into Northern and Central Albania as well where crime was likewise systematic and organized). No way that this could have escaped the Serbian authorities. Infact, it was they themselves who ordered these operations. It was also during this time that a considerable figure of Albanian Muslims and Catholics as well as Bosniak Muslims were forcefully converted to Orthodoxy, particularly in the zones occupied by the Montenegrin forces.
The figure was small Vinjak. So small that most of the examples can be mentioned. The majority of these atrocities were committed against civilians unable to defend themselves. They were anything but "legitimate targets". They were non-combatants. Does this sound like "legitimate targets" and "proper conduct" by Serb soldiers;
"As I speak Serbian fluently, many Serbian officers and soldiers regarded me as one of theirs. And so it was that a Serbian soldier boasted to me of their attack on an Albanian village near Kumanovo. "Many of the villagers who were not able to flee, hid in their attics. We smoked them out, and when their houses were in flames, they came out of their hiding places like moles, screaming, cursing and begging for mercy. We shot them at doorways, sparing our bullets only with the children on whom we used our bayonets. We destroyed the whole village because shots had been fired out of one of the houses bearing a white flag." The military authorities did nothing to hinder these bloodbaths and many officers took part in the atrocities. There was no Serb to be found who had not acted in the full conviction that, with these atrocities, he was doing his country a great service, and one which his superiors wanted of him."
Leo Freundlich, "Gathering Clouds". This just one mere example. You want more?
Fortunately I have not been to war. But plenty of my kin has. And they did not committ atrocities even though they had the opportunity. In WWII, an Albanian ballist battalion entered a village in Kolasin. All the mem had fled to the forests and mountains. The women were left with the children. All were spared. Two members of the battalion were the two brothers of my greatgrandmother.
As I said, of all people of former Yugoslavia, the Albanians were the ones to suffer the most if we take the whole period. Despite this, the least Serbian casualties were suffered in Kosova, whereas the greatest in Croatia. Kind of intriguing, don't you think? As I said, self-restraint is possible. Group pressure helps as well, especially one guided by principles and norms based on a code of honour which condemns the assault on defenceless women and children. Your unability to understand that reflects your background and why things like these were perpetrated by your people and not mine.
A group can also practice self-restraint. As I said, group pressure. This can work both ways. Conscripts not really wanting to committ any murder or rape might be forced to do so for the sake of not angering his companions. Likewise, someone thirsty for blood might restrain himself in order to not be condemned by the others.
There is a difference between beating a guy molesting your girlfriend and massacring innocent women and children because you were fed by propaganda about the "evil Albanian".
Absolutely. But revenge can be perpetrated in different ways. For instance, if someone kills my brother and I kill that person, that's quite justified. However, if I was to kill his whole family, including the children, that is a different thing. In this department, Serbs had oftenly no self-restraint or mercy, 1912 being a painful example. Albanians, however, did have self-restraint most of the times in this department. This doesn't mean that Albanians didn't hunt the men, burned houses or pillaged. Perhaps in some cases they did even dishonor themselves by assaulting women and children. But never at the same proportions as the Serbs. Infact, the greatest dishonor was made following the war 1999. Up till then, we had a very clear record in this department; the rate of rape or attempted rape was the lowest in Kosova of all former Yugoslavia just to illustrate. But times have changed and we do not follow the Code of Honour the same way our ancestors did. And so, some old ladies were assaulted and even murdered, and this is despicable (and was condemned by most).
Political alliances is the reality of life. Serbia isn't the lone-wolf some of you would like to portray it as. But this doesn't mean there are, or atleast should not be, any rules in combat.
You're speaking of revenge against those who've made themselves guilty of something. But I am speaking of full-scale attempted genocide. We're clearly on two different levels. People who make themselves guilty of something are valid targets, though I still believe retribution must be proportional. But attacks on a civilian populace where you disregard sex and age is not "revenge"; it is inexcusable evil.
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Post by vinjak on Feb 3, 2008 17:20:23 GMT -5
We destroyed the whole village because shots had been fired out of one of the houses bearing a white flag."
I think I made a point earlier about this sort of situation if a village harbours combatants they become targets, if a voilation of a white flag are made then the cosequences of this is grave everyone wants to save there own heads ...yes even soldiers and i mentioned before that just because you put the gun down and put on a apron does not make you a civilian.
There is a difference between beating a guy molesting your girlfriend and massacring innocent women and children because you were fed by propaganda about the "evil Albanian".
Yes I know my point to this was that what the law demands of you and what actualy happens are two different things all together....Human nature.
Perhaps in some cases they did even dishonor themselves by assaulting women and children. But never at the same proportions as the Serbs.
The proportions make no difference no man civilian or Soldier reasons in a time of War, revenge is sought for this as I have explained, noone looks at the above as this was done by John, no, it is looked at as the Albanians done this,or look what "they" have done.
But times have changed and we do not follow the Code of Honour the same way our ancestors did. And so, some old ladies were assaulted and even murdered, and this is despicable (and was condemned by most).
Condemned or not it sets the stage for more revenge at a later time should the opportunity arise, and the circle goes on and on.
Basicaly my points about revenge etc rings true as I explained you cannot apply reason in an extrodianry situation such as War is, If we jump forward to the Riots, there was no selective targets no selective revenge or eye for an eye as you highlight no it was a general release of anger against any Serb that was unlucky to be around at that time, Honour and rules did not exist this is another consequence of War I bet the KLA could have prevented the Riot if not by arms then by influence but as we know they actualy influenced the riots, Not every Serb that was involved in the last War or even in 1912 commited a massacre yet the result is the same as if they had, (to the populace). Am I not correct ? I really think you cannot deny that if The KLA was able to or for that matter going back to 1900's had you an organised Army, and they defeated the Serbian forces, would compasion be shown towards any Serb left in the area ? we only have to jump to our lifetime to see that it would not have.
I am not excusing advocating apolagising etc etc my thoughts have always been, and it has saved many that think the same, if civilians chose to stay in a theatre of war they should never expect mercy from the other side there is no law, it is war and you need to do anything you can to stay alive and keep your family safe. This is the reality. No matter how much people want to romantise it.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 3, 2008 17:58:13 GMT -5
You got to be kidding me? It was ONE house. ONE man who shot. Yet they destroyed the WHOLE village and massacred ALL inhabitants, including little children whom they murdered with bayonets!
Sure, it was uncool to do that with a white flag. But to collectively punish a whole village while disregarding age or gender; you think that was to be 'expected'? You amaze me. It appears as if you're growing desperate in trying to justify the activities of the Serbian Army 1912-13. Here is another example from Freundlich's account, wonder if you'll find an "excuse" there;
"Eighty-five Albanians were slain in their homes in Tetova/Tetovo and the town was looted without a sign of an armed uprising beforehand. The heinous deeds committed against the women and girls, including twelve-year-old children, are indescribable. To top off such horrors, the fathers and husbands of the victims were forced by revolver to hold candles and be witness themselves to the outrages committed against their daughters and wives in their own homes."
And further on;
"Over 1,200 Albanians fell victim to the carnage in Ferizaj/Urosevac. The town is almost devoid of inhabitants now. There are only three Moslem Albanian over the age of fifteen left. In Gjilan/Gnjilane, too, where the Albanians put up no defence, almost all the inhabitants were killed by fire and sword. A very small number of fugitives survived the carnage. Now only ruins are left as witness to the destruction of Gjilan/Gnjilane."
I should not even be doing this, i.e. showing examples where the Serbs had NO pretext whatsoever to perpetrate the crimes they perpetrated. The first example had no excuse at all ... but I guess even one mere combatant using a trick was excuse enough to slaughter a whole village. Is this really what you believe Vinjak?
I bet the KLA could have prevented the Riot if not by arms then by influence but as we know they actualy influenced the riots,
Riots? 30,000 massacred Albanians in the Vilayet of Kosova cannot be compared to a riot where some 17 people were killed, a majority of whom were Albanian.
Not directly involved. But there are other means of being complicit. If you deny a crime, that's killing the victims of war a second time. By defending criminal acts, you're guilty to an extent as well.
What was the World War Two? The Albanians could have gone berserk on the Serbs and Montenegrins who had previously shown us no mercy. Such a thing did not occur. Colonists were indeed expelled and their lands regained, and a few were indeed killed at the process. Yet as all studies show, an incredibly low figure of Serbian casualties were suffered in Kosova. This especially in proportion to Serbian casualties in Croatia and Bosnia. We did have our chance. But we did not take advantage of it to massacre Serbs indiscriminately.
And the small retributions committed by Albanians against Serbs 1999 pale in comparison to the Serbian "revenge" of the past. Sure homes were torched. But better that than them being torched while packed with women and children inside.
It is precisely this view which has enabled you Serbs to committ the crimes you've committed. It is precisely our reluctance to engage in this sort of "rules of war" that has made the Chetniks especially 'courageous', being fully aware that killing Albanian women and children will not result in them doing the same.
You can always restrain yourself from massacring defenceless civilians. Unleash your fury in combat, not against children and women. It is not romanticism. It has been reality. Perhaps not in your warfare history, but in ours. To say that killing 8,000 defenceless men and boys within three days is a "part of a war" is cruel, disgusting and even evil. That it comes from you, an allegedly "moderate" Serb speak loads about how other Serbs feel and reason. And the very thought of that is frightening. This is precisely why we must never live within the same state again.
I guess the Holocaust was a "rule of engagement" as well by your logic?
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Post by vinjak on Feb 3, 2008 18:33:58 GMT -5
but I guess even one mere combatant using a trick was excuse enough to slaughter a whole village. Is this really what you believe Vinjak?Its not about believing its about reality and I have mentioned many times you cannot use reason to explain actions in a time of War for freaks sake understand once and for all I am not condoning these actions I actualy condemn these actions but for one that has seen a lot I know this happens and it is a consequence of War where once placid men who would be described as kind gentleman turn into animals. To say that killing 8,000 defenceless men and boys within three days is a "part of a war" is cruel, disgusting and even evil. You realy are not getting what I am saying are you the act of killing these people is not what I am getting into here it is another argument for the consequenses of War. It could be argued had the safe haven really been that and there was no weapons and some did not go on raiding partys it would not have happened. Also a consequence of that incident helped the Albanians in there aspirations to wrestle Kosovo away had this incident not happened events in Kosovo might be different. You got to be kidding me? It was ONE house. ONE man who shot. Yet they destroyed the WHOLE village and massacred ALL inhabitants, including little children whom they murdered with bayonets!Where you there ? how do you know it was one house ? because this person told a story to someone and then he wrote it down ? is it just one side that is capable of propaganda ? nothing is ever that black and white was there anyone who verified this information ? the shots comming out of the house did they wound or kill any of the men that where aproaching the house ? Lets then look at the English Nurse that was with the Serbs who wrote, "An ancient old crone, an Albanian woman, barefooted and in rags, was wandering about among the ruins, and she looked such a poor old thing that I gave her a few coppers. She called down what I took at the time to be blessings on my head, but which afterwards I had reason to suppose were curses. The shells were beginning to fall pretty thickly in our neighbourhood, and our Battalion Commander finally said it was time to move on. He proved to be right, as three minutes after we left it the wall under which we were sitting was blown to atoms by a shell. My old crone had disappeared in the meantime to a couple of wooden houses on the edge of the wood. We had to cross a piece of open ground, which we did in single file, to reach this wood, and before we got to it we got a whole fusillade of bullets whistling round our ears from the friends and relations of the old lady upon whom I had expended my misplaced sympathy and coppers. These were the sort of tricks the Albanians were constantly playing on us from the windows of houses, whenever they got a chance." now would you say this is true or would you say its nothing but propaganda ? So as you can see nothing is as black and white as you and your compatriots like to beleive. Riots? 30,000 massacred Albanians in the Vilayet of Kosova cannot be compared to a riot where some 17 people were killed, a majority of whom were Albanian. No they cannot but this takes us back to what I have said, those 17 people had brothers sisters fathers mothers, do you think they reason at that time oh well it was only 17 compared to what our army allegedly done ? of course not by losing one son,father,daughter,grandmother is equal to all the massacres that have ever happened to the person involved, and should they get a chance the revenge would be terrible. look at your quote below, And the small retributions committed by Albanians against Serbs 1999 pale in comparison to the Serbian "revenge" of the past. Sure homes were torched. But better that than them being torched while packed with women and children inside.you keep saying its not comparable and certainly its not in statisticks, but to the one who has lost, it is equal to all the genocides in the world, even the one who just had his house torched, why can you not understand this ? it sets the stage for the next round of revenge, a Soldier is not a machine that Governments have tried to potray by sanitising War for mass compsumption especialy conscripts. And yet, even when we did have an advantage, the Albanians never committed something remotely similiar to what occured 1912. Yes you did with the Turks,Bulgarians and then Nazis someones son or daughter was directly killed either by an Albanian or because of information from an Albanian again the scale is not important it was enough for people to seek revenge. I guess the Holocaust was a "rule of engagement" as well by your logic? No it was a systemetic plan by one man to deliberatley exterminate a race of people. It was not a consequence of War, certainly War created the environment for Hitler to realise this ambition but it has nothing to do with what I have been pointing out.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Feb 4, 2008 14:24:12 GMT -5
Oh God. It feels as if I am repeating myself continuously. YES, I understand your viewpoint. I acknowledge that ugly side of the war, I DO. But you're not acknowledging the other. It is possible to restrain oneself from committing murder, rape and pillage! "War turns people into animals" is a crappy excuse and untrue, because what occured in 1912 was a conscious act against humanity with a clear intention, one which I have repeated on several occasions by now.
Because the Serb himself said so ! But sure .... with that level of skepticism, let's just ignore all the tales of the Holocaust survivors. Let's turn our skeptometer on the max and we can question everything, even our existance.
The main point is that there is a general picture of what occured in 1912; the news which were spread by different contemporary correspondents, including SERBIAN ones (Dimitrije Tucovic and others) but also by Englishmen, Germans, Danes etc., OVERLAP and COINCIDE and tell a picture of Serbs slaughtering Albanians indiscriminately with bayonets, knives and fires. They speak tales of executions. In other words, whether the Serbs of that time excused themselves by some small pretext, such as one white flag, it does still not justify anything and change what actually happened. Their superiors wanted a bloodbath. They wanted the severe decimation of the Albanian populace.
You not acknowledging so much is scaring.
I have not denied that there is immense pain for the ones involved. But there is a difference between loosing a father, a son, or brother and loosing your whole family. Heard of the Berisha case? Over 40 members of the same family surnamed Berisha were brutally massacred. Not in 1912; in 1999!!!
One's pain is subjective. Of course the murder of someone dear to me is more painful than a massacre somewhere else, or even a genocide which you cannot relate too. But from an objective viewpoint, it cannot be argued that tens of thousands of victims is worse than 17 victims. That loosing your whole family is worse than loosing one family member. Mention to me one case of Albanians slaughtering a whole Serbian family!
Proove it concretely with sources. Exactly how did the Albanians massacre the Serbs systematically and indiscriminately, as you did to us in 1912, during the age of Turks, Bulgarians (WWI?) & Nazis!
Meanwhile, I can conclude that you're not even listening. In WWII, the Serbs were to suffer their least casualties in Kosova of all places; the very place where they had exercised a brutal rule of persecution, opression and rightout liquidation. In Kosova, some 3-4,000 Serbs & Montenegrins were killed altogether throughout the whole period of WWII; this includes combatants and Serbs killed by non-Albanians, e.g. Germans & Italians. How could this be compared to 1912?
During the age of Turks, Serbs were indeed opressed. Some Albanians assisted the Turks in this opression, but it never took the proportions of rightout massacres. As the Serbs themselves told Ms Durham; 'the Albanians never touch women' (let alone children). On the other hand, Serbs did not flinch at murdering, raping and burning women and children during 1912, but also during WWI, in the interwar period and WWII; everything culminating with 1998-99 under the days of Milosevic.
And 1912 wasn't a gang of traumatized conscripts going wild; it was the conscious attempt at decimating the Albanian population in Kosova. The superiors gave their consent. They even ordered and participated.
If the Serbs were to have had the resources of Germany, I would not be surprised if they would have established concentration camps as well. Afterall, they did restrict Jews to specific ghettoes in Belgrade almost a whole century prior to Hitler's Nazi Germany.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 4, 2008 17:35:54 GMT -5
shonic 'quite well'?? Your english is QUITE WELL, you say once basic sentence and you fail...
My 'maternji' is better than your english AND hungarian combined seljacino
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Post by vinjak on Feb 5, 2008 17:48:36 GMT -5
Proove it concretely with sources. Exactly how did the Albanians massacre the Serbs systematically and indiscriminately, as you did to us in 1912, during the age of Turks, Bulgarians (WWI?) & Nazis!www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/054.shtmlnow dont be so quick to dismiss this, lets be realistic here and you let me know which part is propaganda, which could be true and which is true. For instance the speach that mustafa Kruja made, The Serbian population of Kosovo should be removed as soon as possible…All indigenous Serbs should be qualified as colonists and as such, via the Albanian and Italian government, be sent to concentration camps in Albania. Serbian settlers should be killed. Could this be true or propaganda ? Or Feret - bey -draga who stated, the “time has come to exterminate the Serbs” and that “there will be no Serbs under the Kosovo sun.” Or the Italian Diplomat Carlo Umilta who stated, the Italian forces intervened on many occasions to prevent massacres of Kosovo Serbs by Albanians. Umilta stated that “the Albanians are out to exterminate the Slavs.” An Italian army report stated that the Albanians are “hunting down Serbs” and that the “Serbian minority are living in conditions that are truly disgraceful, constantly harassed by the brutality of the Albanians, who are whipping up racial hatred.” What do you know of the Kachak Guerillas ? Or would you call this below propaganda ? The entire Albanian population joined in the attacks against Kosovo Serbs. According to Gavril Kovijanic, a professor in Pec, in 1941, Albanians destroyed 65% of the Serbian houses in Pec and 95% in other areas of Metohija. Serbian cemeteries and gravestones were desecrated and destroyed, trees and crops were cut down, and fields were destroyed, meant to starve out the Serbian population to force them to flee. The Albanians looted, robbed, burned Serbian houses and property; there were mass executions of Kosovo Serbs; Serbs were tortured, beaten, and humiliated; and there was the torture and killing of Serbian children and the rape of Kosovo Serb women.
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Post by engers on Feb 6, 2008 2:25:29 GMT -5
The above-mentioned profesor Gavran is criminal that commit cimes against Albanians.
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Post by vinjak on Feb 6, 2008 3:33:02 GMT -5
The above-mentioned profesor Gavran is criminal that commit cimes against Albanians.
Really ? I didnt know that, can you show me where you got that info please ?
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Feb 6, 2008 12:03:09 GMT -5
Vinjak
Firstly, allow me to laugh at your source. Sorry. I had to. Now I will pretend that it is a viable one, somewhat objective.
Sure.
It could be true. Mustafa Kruja was a nationalist who wished for a homogenous Greater Albania. However, this was all talk. Anyone can say thing; actually implementing your promises is different. Mustafa Kruja may have made this declaration -- I cannot dismiss or verify it -- but facts tell us that Serbs were not sent en masse to concentration camps. Colonists were indeed (and rightfully) dispossesed from the lands they had usurped from the local inhabitants. Some were also killed; in my own village, the colonists provided resistance and in consequence there were some skirmishes. But nowhere did the full-scale type of massacres where age or gender is ignored occur, as in 1912 against the Albanians.
Same thing here; talk. The Draga family were Muslim Slavs by the way. They were from Sanjak originally and were relatively Turkicized (their descendants speak Turkish).
Or the Italian Diplomat Carlo Umilta who stated,
Yet no concrete example of Albanians burning entire families, killing small children with bayonets and committing rape against women and girls. I have never denied that there were retributions against the Serbian and Montenegrin colonists. This is where you've misunderstood me. BUT, these were specifically directed against MEN, whereas women and children weren't touched, and if so, these were isolated incidents condemned by the mainstream. This cannot be said, however, about the Serbs and Montenegrins who did not care if you were a little toddler or a full-grown man, an old lady or a little lass.
What do you know of the Kachak Guerillas ?
Or would you call this below propaganda ?
Propaganda. The very source is Gavril Kovijanic; I gave you non-Serb sources about the execution of women and children as well as the rapes against women.
As I said, the colonist population was indeed driven out. Rightfully so. But there were no full-scale and indiscriminate massacres as in 1912, and even with propaganda you have not been able to proove otherwise. We can apply your level of skepticism here; infact, it is more valid, since no concrete examples of these "executions" and "rapes" are given. Sure, many Serbs were probably mistreated; given the grievous sufferings the Albanian populace endured, it was understandable. HOWEVER, we did not respond with equal brutality and barbarism, where entire families were slaughtered, entire villages exterminated, where children were killed without the slightest compassion and women raped systematically, often infront of their gun-pointed relatives.
As I mentioned earlier, the Albanian ability of self-restraint is not a myth. Statistics verify that much. For instance, in their work "Sporna knjiga mrtvih", Zeljko Kruselj and Djuro Zagorac gave a detailed work on the human casualties suffered in each region of former Yugoslavia. Their estimate of casualties in Kosova was 7,927 dead, of whom 3,241 were Albanians and the rest primarily Serbs and Montenegrins. Put this in contrast to casualties suffered elsewhere; 194,749 in Croatia; 177,045 in Bosnia; 97,728 in Serbia; 19,076 in Macedonia; 16,903 in Montenegro .... etc.
You'll say, perhaps, that this is BS, since the two authors of the work in question are ethnic Croat. Well, let's see what the Serb scholar Bogoljub Kocovic wrote. According to him, Kosova suffered some 10,000 casualties, of whom approximately 6,000 were Albanian and 4,000 Serb and Montenegrin! Remember that in both Kocovic's and Kruselj's/Zagorac's cases, they're not explicitly referring to civilians, but all casualties. Many of these Serbs in Kosova were not killed by Albanians, many were killed in combat and I dare to say that a small percentage were women and children, if even that. Nevertheless, as mentioned earlier, we had the biggest reason to feel a desire for revenge, given that we suffered mostly in Old Yugoslavia. Yet, 'only' 10,000 casualties were suffered in Kosova; big, but little in comparison to the meaningless bloodshed in other parts of former Yugoslavia; 382,000 in Bosnia & Herzegovina (of whom Kocovic says 209,000 were Serb); 295,000 in Croatia (of whom125,000 were Serb) .... etc.
Mind you, I believe some of the figures presented that concern the human casualties suffered in former Yugoslavia during WWII, were and remain highly inflated. Nevertheless, we can reach one conclusion by observing these statistics. That the picture portrayed in your quotes do not correspond with scholarly studies, which show that the least casualties were suffered in Kosova. Meaning that despite having put us under such pressure, the smallest figure of killed Serbs was to be found in Kosova.
If you do not find that remarkable, I am shocked. Meanwhile, Serbs were slaughtered in other parts of Yugoslavia. I am not saying that the Croats for instance did not suffer in the kingdom of SCS. BUT, not at the extent we did. They were still a constitutional nation within Yugoslavia; their parties represented in the parliament. I mean, the greatest thing I can recall is the murder of Stjepan Radic at the hand of Punisa Racic. Other than that ... what's left?
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Post by Pejoni on Feb 6, 2008 12:23:11 GMT -5
Oh someone didnt just use serbianna.com as source LOOOOOL
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Post by vinjak on Feb 6, 2008 19:11:30 GMT -5
Oh someone didnt just use serbianna.com as source LOOOOOLman how anoying s.crew the source, read the contents and then disprove them It could be true. Mustafa Kruja was a nationalist who wished for a homogenous Greater Albania. However, this was all talk. Anyone can say thing; Yeah not a problem man I can see the double standards here If for instance a Serb made this speach it would be taken as gospel by you and your compatriots and would serve as proof of intention. Did he or any of his followers try to make this happen ? Yet no concrete example of Albanians burning entire families, killing small children with bayonets and committing rape against women and girls. I already explained earlier why, Serb casualtys have remained as statistics and to an extent they still do which is why its easy to dismiss. Propaganda. The very source is Gavril Kovijanic; Yep I had a feeling you or others would say that because he is a Serb , so do we know dismiss Albanian refugee eyewitness accounts ? Shurly we must as it would have to be bias ...right ? It amazes me actualy that a diplomats statement on the murders of children and women by the Albanians was just dismissed outright but again i should not expect more, even a admitance to the probability of Nazi afiliated Albanians or the so called Kachak Guerillas etc would have served to lend some ligitimance to this debate not just "Mistreatment of Serbs" Anyway I am done with this, this is why our conflicts will never end although I can admit that massacres did indeed take place by Serbs you and your compatriots on the other hand dismiss the massacres of Serbs as isolated incidents or mistreatment...disgusting.
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Post by Pejoni on Feb 6, 2008 19:25:00 GMT -5
man how anoying s.crew the source, read the contents and then disprove themYou dont read their articles dont you? EVERY one of them they take from Reuters, AP, BBC and other international news they simply edit making it look like some mujahedin war against christian defenders (Serb) ... dont tell me about serbianna being relible, pls just stop there. For proving you are wrong, we have Donnie who is doin a excellent job
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