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Post by superman on Nov 6, 2007 7:28:24 GMT -5
Bulgarian Muslims exodus in 1989, why so many fleed away and how many? you wanted to bulgarise the turks in 1989 hah?
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Rhezus
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DERZA STURIA TRAUS
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Post by Rhezus on Nov 6, 2007 17:21:48 GMT -5
That proces was in 1985.. and ethnic turks of Bulgaria felt very much offended. No other country had done something like this in modern times.. Not even the former Soviet Union. At a conference held in Paris (called "Human dimentions" in 1988), the western world pointed out that human rights are not followed in former east block and specially BG was hardly criticized for doing that stupidity. The big countries of west (UK, France, Italy, AUS, NZ, CAN and US) said they could make embargo on BG and that the government should promise and give ethnic turks rights to leave and settle either in TR or in the above mentionned countries. The socialist government sent those who were prisoned to Vienna and the rest get passports valid only for Turkey.
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Post by superman on Nov 7, 2007 2:28:14 GMT -5
did they returned back?
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 7, 2007 3:45:33 GMT -5
In 1876, there were about 1.25 million Bulgarian Turks/Pomaks living in the Bulgarian lands of the Ottoman Turkey. About 500.000 of them were massacred during the 1877-1878 war by the Russians and their allies. After the end of the extermination campaign governed by Russia, the Bulgarians continued to oppress the remaining Turks and forced them to emigrate from time to time. Between 1881-1902, a total of 345.000 Turks/Pomaks emigrated to Turkey.
There was low level of emigration between 1902-1912 period, but during the Balkan War, Bulgarians again started to kill the civilians. So, another 200.000 civilian Turks/Pomaks got killed whilst another 200.000 of them were deported to the Ottoman Turkey. Between 1923-1939 another 200.000 emigrated to Turkey, but during the WWII, only some 20.000 arrived to Turkey. In 1951, the Bulgarian governments initiated another crisis and deported another 154.000 Turks/Pomaks from Bulgaria to Turkey.
As of 1968, the Bulgarian government deported more Turks/Pomaks and the total emigrated during 1923-1968 period reached to some 600.000 Turks/Pomaks. Between 1968-1989 period, the Bulgarian governments killed thousands of Turk/Pomaks and forced them to change their names. During that last exodus of more than 300.000 Turks/Pomaks. Overall, more than two million Bulgarian Turks/Pomaks emigrated to Turkey between 1878-1990s, and hundreds of thousands of them were massacred by the Russian (1877-1878) and the Bulgarian authorities.
There is one thing for sure, if the Russians had not committed a genocide on Bulgarian Turks in 1877-1878, then there would not have been a Bulgarian state right now. After the establishment of Bulgaria, the Bulgarians also continued to massacre and ethnically cleanse off the Turks/Pomaks, and such campaigns continued until the collapse of the Soviet Block. For example, I have many friends whose families were forced to emigrate from Bulgaria to Turkey in 1880s, 1910s, 1950s and 1980s, but only the ones arrived after 1980s are entitled to hold the Bulgarian citizenship.
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Post by superman on Nov 7, 2007 3:51:41 GMT -5
why you say Turks/Pomaks, what are turks and what are Pomaks?
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Post by Edlund on Nov 7, 2007 5:54:30 GMT -5
Janissary, your numbers are ridiculous. First there are 1 250 000 "Turks/Pomaks" in 1877, then until 1912 are massacred and forced out 1 240 000. The remaining 10 000 "Turks/Pomaks" produced another 1 000 000, so that the Bulgarians have something to massacre and force out until 1989.
The leaders of the Turkish party today in Bulgaria were agents of the communistic repressive organs during the repressions in 1985-1989 and before that. Ahmed Dogan - the leader - was working in at least 3 directions for the secret services. He had 3 pseudonyms - Sava, Angel and Sergei. He is philosopher by education, and his post-graduate work at the faculty of philosophy at the Sofia university was arranged by the Bulgarian secret services. The secretary of ideology of the central commitee of the Bulgarian Communist Party - Stoyan Mihaylov - wanted from Dogan to develop a conception for work with the Turkish-speaking population and its integration with the Bulgarian society. The task was fulfilled. According to the author of the conception, the "integration" included changing the Turkish names with Bulgarian ones. I've seen on TV Turks, who were imprisoned in that time, who said that in every Turkish village there was at least one agent of the Bulgarian secret services - an ethnic Turk.
So this exodus was executed by ethnic Turks aswell.
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Post by Edlund on Nov 7, 2007 6:09:03 GMT -5
By the way, why is the Turkish state executing a genocide over the Kurds for so many years, and even now? The cause for the repressions between 1985-1989 was Turkish terrorist activity. Around 1985 there were many terrorist acts of Turks against Bulgarians. The most horrible is the detonation of a train, and this part of the train, which was for mothers with children. It happened at the Bunovo station. These are the results: There are strong indications that these terrorist acts were planned by the communist secret services, so that they have a reason for the repressions. At that time the leader of the "Turkish national liberation movement" was the same Ahmed Dogan. After the "exodus" the "Turkish national liberation movement" created a political party - DPS (Movement for liberty and rights) with leader Ahmed Dogan until today. They bought the properties of the Turks, who were forced out, at very low prices. If you know something about the wars in Yugoslavia, you will see how similar the situation was.
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Post by superman on Nov 7, 2007 13:42:44 GMT -5
I have a question. After 1990 did the turks have ministers in gov. of Bulgaria all the time or not? are they a force in political scene of BG or not?
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 8, 2007 3:27:59 GMT -5
Janissary, your numbers are ridiculous. First there are 1 250 000 "Turks/Pomaks" in 1877, then until 1912 are massacred and forced out 1 240 000. The remaining 10 000 "Turks/Pomaks" produced another 1 000 000, so that the Bulgarians have something to massacre and force out until 1989. I do not find anything ridiculous about the Turkish population figures, or "the great ordeal" that the Turks experienced in Bulgaria. Most importantly, I do not think that any Turk would find it ridiculous either. In 1878 when Bulgaria won its freedom after the Ottoman-Russian war, the situation for the Turks changed completely. Turkish scholars claim that this war changed the population balance in favor of the Bulgarians, while around one million Turks were uprooted from their homes and some 350,000 were killed or died of hunger and epidemics (Carnegie Endowment, 1914). “The Turkish minority in Bulgaria was formed according to the classical patterns where, as a result of the disintegration of a multi-national empire and the drawing of new state borders, a nationality until recently dominant in political life proves isolated from its principal ethnic mass and is forced into a rudimentary existence in an alien environment” (Stoyanov, 1994:268).
During and after the Balkan wars and the First World War, Muslim emigration picked up (Eminov, 1997:48). According to a Bulgarian estimate, approximately 350,000 left between 1880 and 1911. Between the World Wars, some 150,000-200,000 Turks emigrated, mainly on the basis of the Turkish-Bulgarian agreement of 1925 (Hoepken, 1997:55)ingilish.com/turksofbulgaria.htm
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 8, 2007 3:40:50 GMT -5
By the way, why is the Turkish state executing a genocide over the Kurds for so many years, and even now? You are only fooling for self. There are about 7-10 million Kurds living in Turkey, and the Turkish state never massacred or deported the Kurds. However, there was struggle between Turkish security forces and the nationalist Kurdish terrorists. As a result, some 30.000-35.000 people died over the last 25 years, and almost half of them were the security officers. So, your genocide claims is the only ridiculous thing happening to us. One can not say the same for the Turks of Bulgaria who were the direct victims of the Genocide of 1877-1878 executed by Russia and her allies. Similarly, the extermination campaigns of the Balkan War also comply with the definition of genocide.
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Post by superman on Nov 8, 2007 11:13:01 GMT -5
If they are 10 millions of Kurds in Turkey that means more than Greece....You have a Greece in your own country
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Post by Ivanov on Nov 8, 2007 15:27:45 GMT -5
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Post by Edlund on Nov 8, 2007 16:23:00 GMT -5
He would, if he has studied mathematic. I have the Carnegie Endowment and I haven't seen this quotation. I strongly suspect that this is false quotation. Can you prove that it's not? What does this prove? So it was agreed Turkish-Bulgarian genocide over the poor Turks. One can not say the same for the Turks of Bulgaria who were the direct victims of the Genocide of 1877-1878 executed by Russia and her allies. Similarly, the extermination campaigns of the Balkan War also comply with the definition of genocide. The Bulgarians of Bulgaria were direct victims of the Genocide of 14th century - 1878 executed by the Ottoman empire. Similarly,the extermination campaigns of the Balkan War also comply with the definition of genocide. There were between 250 000 and 450 000 Bulgarians living in Turkey before the Balkan War. They were either massacred or forced out. After the war the remaining Bulgarians were close to 0. The properties of the Bulgarians were expropriated and the Turkish state owes the Bulgarian state 10 000 000 000$ for their properties. I have friends, whose grandparents were from Odrin Thrace.
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Post by Ivanov on Nov 8, 2007 17:07:16 GMT -5
Janny, you are good with your numbers, but you lack sources. It is true many Turks went or were sent back to their motherland Turkey, but what massacres are you dreaming about. At least cite 1 non Turkish source, you even don't give Turkish sources. You people were those skillful in massacres. Here is a source for you. Long ago I dedicated a post about it, to desire: The Turkish attrocities in Bulgaria, by J. Macgahan www.attackingthedevil.co.uk/related/macgahan.php" If it is too long for you to read, here is a shorter version: Find, and post a similar non biaced source about those massacres of yours
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Nov 9, 2007 2:06:37 GMT -5
You are only fooling for self. There are about 7-10 million Kurds living in Turkey, and the Turkish state never massacred or deported the Kurds. I ve heard the number 25 millions, but I could be wrong. Still its kind of sad that those things CONTINUE to happen today. In a country that desires to join EU. But u are blaming us for things that happened 100, 50, 20 years ago when the mentality of the people was very different (u may remember that around this time WW2 happened). This is absurd. Can I make u remember 1876? The Turks didnt have pity for the Bulgarians too. I wouldnt go and count the endless genocides of the Turks against not only Bulgarians, but all people from the Bolkans from 14 century till later.
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Post by Ivanov on Nov 9, 2007 3:35:56 GMT -5
Janny I am still waiting for your sources, here is another example for u, they should look like this:
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 9, 2007 4:43:59 GMT -5
He would, if he has studied mathematic. Who is he? About whom do you talk about? Could you please prove that it is not correct quotation? That makes things easier. You are the mathematician here. So, I suppose you could build an axiom that could disprove that comment concluded in relation to that specific era in history. That was not genocide. That was an emigration agreement. Genocides took place during the Russo-Turco War of 1877-1878, and the Balkan Wars. Not true at all. The Bulgarians were of a Turkic people in the first place. Later they were assimilated by the Slavs after having converted to Christianity. Until the end of the Turkish rule, the Ottomans avoided to kill or deport their subjects though they might have oppressed or heavily taxed them from time to time. However, there was never mass killings like happened in during the Russo-Turco War of 1877-1878 or the Balkan War.
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 9, 2007 4:58:06 GMT -5
I ve heard the number 25 millions, but I could be wrong. It is all together 25 million in the whole Middle East, including Iraq, Turkey, Iran, Syria, Azerbaijan, and Armenia. It is the European Union and its individual members do such accusations on yearly basis. Yes they did. That is why, they spared the Bulgarians lives for centuries. Ottomans did not commit genocide on their subjects in the Balkans.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Nov 9, 2007 5:32:56 GMT -5
It is all together 25 million in the whole Middle East, including Iraq, Turkey, Iran, Syria, Azerbaijan, and Armenia. Ok, so it was the total number of them, sorry. Still its kind of strange that they do if they didnt have any base for it, dont u think? What spared the Bulgarians, and all the other christians in the empire was the heavy taxation of the Christians. Its only natural that the sultan would want to get more money, if possible. On the other hand the Christians were much more religious than today and wanted to keep their fate. I acknowledge that as a whole the turks were tolerant to the christian religion, but still i sense economic profits behind it (which is good by the way, the fact we managed to save our religion and consciousness). However your notion that the Turks were cute little guys that treated their subjects as equals is untrue. Its not possible to write how much the Bolkans have backwarded since the fall of Byzantine empire. But of course the nowadays Turks have nothing to do with policy, executed 100000 years ago. Ok not genocide, but brutal answer to the Bolkan peoples uprisings.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Nov 9, 2007 6:32:46 GMT -5
Ivanov, your link about pomak ppl also say that they still call themselves "Ahriani" (Thracian/odryssian/ tribe - called in greek lang. for "Agrianes").
Ioan:
I would like to point out the fact that every Empire wanted their citizen to pay taxes!! There was an Ottoman Empire and Bulgaria and East Romelia were part of it. There is no even such state today, who say: "no need to pay taxation!"
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