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Post by yahadj on Nov 11, 2007 21:27:49 GMT -5
Ok ok let the real Turks from Bulgaria talk and you lsten! Ok, we all know that Bulgarians are full with hatred against anything Turkish. They have their reasons. Ottoman "yoke" they call it. They wake up and sleep with the Turkish horror tales. I mean they have a point to some extent, 500 years is no joke. But I think they get on this little to extreme sometimes. Ottomans or somebody else. Just some 100 or 200 years ago when nobody knew what a nation meant and didn't care, beign Turk or Bulgarian didn't make much difference. The taxes that you had to pay were important. When Ottomans occupied Balkans 600 years ago, the people didn't really resist too much. They were ruled by corrupt and cruel kings who were fighting with each other and people needed stability. They found that Ottomans ask for less taxes and they preferred them over their own kings. There was not this thing called "national embarresment" at that time. So after some 400 years passed, Europe started exporting the new ideas like liberty, equality, nation, independance. The freemasons of Europe orchestrated the French revolution in order to get rid of monarchy not for the sake of people but to seize power for their futute hidden goals. Then they exported that to all countries so other monarchies fall, too. That is how Ottomans were effected, too. The same western powers decided to change borders of Balkans and middle east and started their plans. Russians were competing with them for the balkans, too. Ottomans had to fight in many fronts at the same time. They started to get weakened by constant wars and corruption. The sultan started demanding more taxes and made the life of all people in the empire misarable. While the Turks were on the fronts, non-muslim population got the burden of higer taxes. Basically they payed for the expenses of wars and Turks died in the front. Bootom line, terrible life for everybody. Then national movements started with the help of Russian or Western agents or foreign (France) trained intelegentia. As the sultan got weaker the control of the empire was lost. Disorder prevailed. The Muslim emigrants were chased and killed by Russians. They were angry. Then they were faced by Christian nationalist movements and since the state was non efficient local militia took initiative to opress christian uprisals. You know the results. That just made the flame get stronger. The masterminds of WWI knew that would happen and they started their full blown attack on Ottomans and BG got "independance" under the rule of a foreign prince named Alexander Joseph of Battenberg. Then continued its "independance" under Prince Ferdinand Maximilian Karl Leopold Maria of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Then Boris Klemens Robert Maria Pius Ludwig Stanislaus Xaver followed his dad. And finally the famous Simeon of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha ruled only for 3 years to deliver the power to the Soviet sponsored socialists. The following 45 years represented the "golden era" of sovereign and prosperous Bulgarian nation. At the peak of that era Jivkov decided to grant that high post of beign "Bulgarian" to the "lower" races of BG, too, like the Gypsies, Pomaks and Turks. Actually it was a time of higher level of consciousnes for all non-Bulgars. Finaly we were recognized as Bulgars... We were given rights to choose a Bugarian name, not to speak Turkish anymore and even close our mosques... What a priviledge! We were so excited that we couldn't decide where to start. Some of us were lucky they got some tips and clues at Belene Jail on Belene island. Some were not that lucky they only had find the truth in the depths of coal mines. Some teachers got enlightened in the dark corners of Vidin. But eventually all of us succeeded to acquire our recognition as Bulgarians. Then when we were given a chance to go to Turkey we didn't hesitate. We decied we can share the glory and happiniess of becoming Bulgarian and may be convert some of Anatolian Turks to this new Bulgarian identity, as well. That is why we went... We are not selfish!
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 12, 2007 0:23:43 GMT -5
LOL
Just like India was "saved" by the British after the fall of the Mughals. Empires are empires, there is no need to justify them...
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 12, 2007 2:09:25 GMT -5
Janny, you are twice what Edlund told you. Your figures do not need any comment. Only an insane retard can believe this load of bollocks. Perhaps you could bring some correct figures forward and you might enlighten us in relation to this exodus issue, what do you say, genius Mongol?
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 12, 2007 2:10:57 GMT -5
Is Rhezus a turk living in Bulgaria? Even if it so, what's the problem? Rhezus is one of the most balanced person here, I like his posts a lot. Have you seen that since I get along so good with Rhezus and Ioan, I haven't attacked Bulgaria? I agree. Rhezus is a balanced person. I should also mention Ioan's name who appears to be another moderate participant of this forum.
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Rhezus
Moderator
DERZA STURIA TRAUS
Posts: 1,674
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Post by Rhezus on Nov 12, 2007 4:14:13 GMT -5
Rhezus, I didn't see you condemn the Turkish terrorists who blew the train, killing innocent civilians, either. This is something I can't really 'swallow' easily. I don't know, may be in Sweden it is a kind of civic agreement to kill children and mothers, but it is too far away from my Balkan mentality. Alright Ruse, give me the names of these Turkish terorists, who killed children and blew trains in Bulgaria? What did they exactly, were they prisoned, what happened to them?! I want you to bring me some facts about the terrorist attacks, pls. I've heard in the mid 80's that in Burgas a guy was acused for selling "poisoned ice cream" to children. I just couldn't stop laughing.. He probably could have poisoned some Turkish children as well?! And why was he selling ice cream to children only?! These questions just popped up in my mind though. I didn't really believe to what was said (or fabricated by former "State sacurity"?!). Yeap, you know it best... For sure, you were on my birthday - holding a big candle in your hand. I can tell in return that you were born in the steppes, drinking mare milk.. with little colts gathered around you. Ruse, you are the one having a real shortcoming! I shall open a new tread, asking everybody (except you and Kubrat of course) to share their views and what they know about our origin. "Are we steppe-Bulgars or are we Thracians?"
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Post by superman on Nov 12, 2007 4:19:58 GMT -5
I think Rhezus is one of the most pleasant person on this forum. And God know I've been many times provocative with intention, and he was very balanced.
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Rhezus
Moderator
DERZA STURIA TRAUS
Posts: 1,674
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Post by Rhezus on Nov 12, 2007 4:42:48 GMT -5
Hey Bonni, your karma is rising very fast.. Now it's 14 and it was -10 not long ago..
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 12, 2007 6:04:54 GMT -5
Ruse, you are the one having a real shortcoming! I shall open a new tread, asking everybody (except you and Kubrat of course) to share their views and what they know about our origin. "Are we steppe-Bulgars or are we Thracians?" ;D ;D ;D
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Nov 12, 2007 6:27:21 GMT -5
I should also mention Ioan's name who appears to be another moderate participant of this forum. ;D
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Post by yahadj on Nov 12, 2007 6:47:34 GMT -5
[/quote] LOL Just like India was "saved" by the British after the fall of the Mughals. Empires are empires, there is no need to justify them...[/quote] I am not trying to justify anything. Those are the facts. It did happen and has its own causes. The monarchs of the time didn't care for the nationality of their spouses as long as that ads them more power. I am pretty much sure that ordinary people of the time didn't care about who is ruling them as lond as they lived better than before. They knew that not all kings care about their people. Well, so bad for the kings. If you don't care for your people there always going to be others to fill the gap... Good example: Bulgaria. After Ottomans, they didn't mind living under the rule of appointed foreign princes. Then Soviets were cool too. Now it is EU that would rule. That is what I am saying, small countries like that wouldn't care who rules. Because at the end of the day what matters is the food that you eat. If you don't eat much ideologies don't feed your stomach. With each new ruler Bulgarians got some new advantages. That made them go on in their search for new masters... Bulgarians should understand that, so they can move on the Turkish issue. Nationalism already got old fashioned. It was created some 100-200 years ago to polarize all monarchies including the Ottoman and create ethnic conflicts so that Westerers and Russian can interfere and divide and rule. However, it was internalized by the oppressed nations as a cry for help. It was sincere effort. But since it was invented and orchestrated by cunning foreign powers the opressed people couldn't escape their tight grip after they got "liberated". At the end it turned out to be only a hand over operation, submission to new masters. Since they were more powerful they brought you more prosperity. So end product more gains for ordinary people... But if you still want to be nationalistic then it requires you to be more consistent in your "ideals". Cursing your old master (Turks) and delivering your leash voluntarily to some other new masters is not a patriotism. You see, nationalism is old fashioned... It is not realy easy to sustain a life as an independant nation. Well, not all nations can do it. So what? They don't have to. Not everybody has to do the same thing, right. Some people rule better, some create better... It is a devine balance and harmony...
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Post by superman on Nov 12, 2007 8:43:32 GMT -5
What if Romania and Bulgaria will make again an Empire?
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 12, 2007 9:00:51 GMT -5
Yahac, i couldnt help but sense a feeling of nostalgia when you talk about the ottoman empire. As if we were all living in eutopia until these " evil westerners " engrained this idea of nationalism in us. Let me break it to you...the ottoman empire was a curse, not a blessing. Also, your description of the ottoman empire can be applied just the same for the byzantine empire. So what made yours so much better ? They say if the turks never arrived in anatolia, mankind would of reached the moon by at least a hundred years earlier. We literly slided back in time due to the occupation of nomads...
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Post by rusebg on Nov 12, 2007 10:15:41 GMT -5
What do you want me to say, Mongrel Turk wanna-be?
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Post by yahadj on Nov 12, 2007 11:17:22 GMT -5
Yahac, i couldnt help but sense a feeling of nostalgia when you talk about the ottoman empire. As if we were all living in eutopia until these " evil westerners " engrained this idea of nationalism in us. Let me break it to you...the ottoman empire was a curse, not a blessing. Also, your description of the ottoman empire can be applied just the same for the byzantine empire. So what made yours so much better ? They say if the turks never arrived in anatolia, mankind would of reached the moon by at least a hundred years earlier. We literly slided back in time due to the occupation of nomads... You are wrong. I don't care about Ottomans. The last 200 years of the empire was total corruption. You can say the same thing for all empires including Byzantian. The only difference is that Ottomans were Muslims but didn't behave like ones all the time. For which I care more. Especially during the last 200 years they lost it. Well, so bad, the history doesn't forgive... But you still have to understand that the last 200 years of the world has been under the rule of at least equally corrupt Western powers. The difference these are using more cunning tactics. They are using the power of science, social psychology. They don't see any problem in deceiving the public, lying like bread and butter. In this case Ottomans ramain as relatively little Evil. At least you knew what an Ottoman was. The new ones use hidden tactics, using mystic powers...Woooo. Bulgarians has to be consistent if they are nationalists...
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 12, 2007 13:07:13 GMT -5
I dont know about Bulgaria, but I know that cities in my country were starting to flourish the the 14-15th century. Many of them starting contributing figures to the Renaissance (Martin Barleti); the various princelings and kingdoms were creating a real medieval history, one of laws and histories. The Ottomans ended all that. Cities in our country went from trading centers to mere villages as a result of the Ottoman conquest. So yea, they didnt care, but they provided enough links with the west so as to allow for commerce to rise. In fact, my people were starting to develop trading centers all over the Adriatic, with an entire quarter in Venice. The Ottomans ended all that also.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Nov 12, 2007 15:11:23 GMT -5
Yahac, sorry to brake it to u, but your arguments dont make sense. Its only natural in 19 century the nationalism to be born. Even in the Otoman Empire, people were changing and the backwardness of the "ill man of Europe" couldnt help it. Its so obvious how backwardish the ottomans were. All the balkans with their orthodox culture, literature, lifestyle, aristocrasy (that almost always pushesh ahead a country in a cultural aspect) were gone. Why all the balkan people had so many songs dedicated on their last kings, on the voevodas who fought against the ottomans, on girls that preffered to kill themselves then to marry an ottoman? Cause they didnt care who their masters were? That is a lie. Even if Byzantium, Bulgaria, Serbia etc. stopped developing when the Turks arrived, they would ve been much more developed than they ended. Plus the Turks cut our cultural relation with the West and thus paralized its influence. Not to mention that in Bulgaria almost no significal building was build for 500 years since the Ottomans rules. What we got was total distructions of the previous beautiful buildings. No culture, books were written. All the people dived in illiteracy.
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Post by superman on Nov 12, 2007 15:22:16 GMT -5
you see Rhezus, good remark,...good friends surround me...
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Post by superman on Nov 12, 2007 15:22:41 GMT -5
actually now is 16 ;D
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Post by rusebg on Nov 12, 2007 16:22:42 GMT -5
You don't care about Turkey either. You just pop-up here to annoy people with your preachings. Why did you move so quickly to the states after you finally settled due to whatever reasons in Ana Vatan or whatever you call your mother country. Besides Yahac, your arguments are biased to the extreme. Everything that communists did to Turks, they did to Bulgarians as well. I told you not so long ago this thing, you did not reply (because you would have to admit you were posting one-sided crap) and now you continue with your piles of horsesh.it. How come it is only you and Janni Bottomani of all Turks who post here?
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Post by humbleman on Nov 12, 2007 17:14:49 GMT -5
OK Yahac, I do agree with you that the Balkan nations have a lot of anti-Turk propaganda and myths about this subject. Certainly in Romania history is always seen as a struggle against Turks, and always trying to keep Turks at bay. But in reality at Romania's conception (i.e. Wallachia), the main struggle was against the Hungarians because they wanted to expand their empire towards the black sea. Frequently Romanian princes formed an alliance with the Otomans against them, and sometimes they also faught against Otomans too. It just depended on their interests at the time. In fact it is well known that Vlad Dracul (Vlad the Impaler's father) also colluded with the Otomans from time to time, as well as fighting them. That is realpolitik, not some fairy tales in order to instil some fake national pride.
But Yahac what you forgot is that the Otoman did not industrialise in the 18/19th century, while Western Europe did, and this meant that subjects in the Otoman Empire had a much lower quality of life than their Western counterparts, and their lives were fairly backward compared to Western Europeans. (I am only talking about 18th century onwards, when nation-states were being in their conceptual phase.) I guess the more educated elites wanted change to a better quality of life, and this is primarily why they wanted to be free of the Otoman yoke. So leave your conspiracy theories aside please Yahac!
And as for independence: of course it is better to have destiny in your own hands, and you are right it is not easy. But to say that Bulgaria/ Romania look for new masters is wide of the mark.
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