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Post by Illyrian_Bosniak on Nov 14, 2007 7:54:58 GMT -5
Bulgarians stem from Turkic tribes some of our Pomaks also think of themselves as some preserved ancient Thracian tribe). As for Bosniak for me they are the Serb analog of the Bulgarian pomaks (Bulgarians with muslim religion). "Your" Pomaks are right, they are the ancestors of ancient and native Balkan peoples, it was the pomaks who laid the foundation of Bogomil religion in Bulgaria, which later spread to Bosnia and influenced the Bosniaks (Bosnian church)..and if recall correctly the Albanians also had some kind of third church which was Bogomil like - however the arrival of Islam to the Balkans functioned as a crystallizer of the ancient Balkan peoples - since only they accepted Islam. The Bosniaks, Albanians, Pomaks (and others) belong essentially to the same group of ancient Balkan peoples, wether it be illyrians, thracians or whatever. So you as a Bulgarian should know that you are an intruder in the land of Pomaks, just as the Serbs and Croats are intruders in the land of Illyria. We are ancient and native, you are late comers, get over it! Why we speak slavic language? ever heard of something called assimiliation? End of disccussion with you =)
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Post by Edlund on Nov 14, 2007 9:29:08 GMT -5
Hi, Bosniak, yesterday I was searching for sources about the bogomilism in Bosnia. I haven't found anything, except that the Bosnjaks are going on certain days of the year to a "doviste", where they do "dova". I couldn't find out what "dova" means. Can you tell me something about it, and give me some sources about the bogomilism in Bosnia?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 14, 2007 10:26:11 GMT -5
"Your" Pomaks are right, they are the ancestors of ancient and native Balkan peoples, Why only they? The Pomaks look like Bulgarians, talk like Bulgarians. The only difference is their religion. We know from the sources they were forced to change it, it wasnt voluntarily. (at least most wasnt, especially in the Rodopi mountain where most Pomaks live) According to every source it was the Bulgarians that laid the foundation of the Bolomil religion. Back then there were no Pomaks. That is new for me I havent heard about it. Hmmmmmmmm. Why? One thing (that they are ancient) doesnt lead to another (accepting Islam). There is no connection, from the first the second doesnt follow. Plus your "theory" doesnt explain how the Romanians (ancestors of the Dacians, north Thracian tribe) "werent enlighted" and didnt accept the new religion. Almost half of the Albos are christian too. Are they Albanized Slavs Why? Whats the connection between Islam (forced on u (at least mostly in Bulgaria, dont know about u in Bosnia really) and the Pomaks by the Turks. Did they just chose the "half assimilated natives" (linguistically) and converted only u to Islam? Why Romanians (that speak Latin=were here before the Slavs=were natives) were "not liked" by the Turks for the new faith? Show me 1 evidence why u, that speak Slavic are native and the Serbs arent? Actually u are from the newest type of people because u have new religion+new language (you are people forcefully (mostly) torn from your people). No proove. So u were assimilated before becoming muslim. So u were ex Slavic. Hm. So are u Slavic now? Or arent u? Interesting logic! From all this I can see 1 thing :there is no reasons for your conclusions!
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Post by superman on Nov 14, 2007 11:37:44 GMT -5
I think now that's clear, all those who voted the majority are right. So, Bulgarians come from Thracians, and thus related to Dacians and Romanians.
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Post by Illyrian_Bosniak on Nov 14, 2007 20:13:43 GMT -5
Hi, Bosniak, yesterday I was searching for sources about the bogomilism in Bosnia. I haven't found anything, except that the Bosnjaks are going on certain days of the year to a "doviste", where they do "dova". I couldn't find out what "dova" means. Can you tell me something about it, and give me some sources about the bogomilism in Bosnia? I'm not familiar with Doviste and Dova, but I suspect it is a kind of funeral cermony held at locations with Bogomil tombs. I wouldn't recommend the net for information search on Bogomilism, most good sources are in Bosnian and those in English are mostly biased or not especially informative. I would however recommend you to visit your local or national library and lend several books in this topic, but note several! so you can compare the authors, and decide which one is nearest the truth - becasue even library books can be biased. If I may introduce a little of what I know and believe: Bogomilism was established by assimiliated indigenous people in Bulgaria (e.g Pomaks). This as a, somewhat, last attempt to preserve an unique identity and belief - the last thing that abandons a human is not her language or nation, but her religion and beliefs. This religion later spread to Bosnia, where another assimilated native Balkan people (the Bosnjani, Bosnians that is, who were much more preserved than the Pomaks and much more numerous, with an independent state as well (Bosnian kingdom) which was however constantly attacked and threatend by neighbouring croatia, serbia and catholic rome) lived. The Ideas of Bogomilism soon were accepted and recieved with much love in Bosnia, the problem of religion in Bosnia at this time was the never ending force of conversion from catholic Rome. The religiously pressed Bosnians soon saw Bogomilism as a new competing order of religion that would not be subdued easily by catholic rome, the ideas of Bogomilism also suited Bosnian beliefs very well, since the Bosnians as descendants of native western balkan people had the same religious foundation as other native peoples on Balkan (e.g ancestors of pomaks). Now, the character of Bogomilism was very similiar to the relation Islam has with christianity (e.g Islamic disbelief of trinity and use of the cross as religious symbol). Bogomilism was the very first form of protestantic christianity in Europe, the ideas of this religion later spread from Bosnia on to western europe to affect the cathars among others, people whose ideas prooved vital for the creation of modern protestantic christianity in the 16th century. However, with the arrival of Islam to the Balkans the bogomils of Bosnia (Bosniaks), Bulgaria (Pomaks), Kosovo (Gorani), Macedonia (Torbesh) instantly saw the similiarities between the two religions which eased conversion, which also enabled them to seek protection from the religious persecution but also to enjoy all the privilegies that a person of Islamic belief had in the ottoman empire. Essentially all "Slavic" Muslims on the balkans today share a common ancient and native Balkan descent. Traces of their ancient heritage can be seen as for example in the name 'Bosnia' - stems from the illyrian word Bosona. And as well the very important fact that another ancient balkan people also converted to Islam, the Albanians - which strenghtens this point of view. It is all about sociological anthropology.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Nov 14, 2007 20:51:03 GMT -5
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 15, 2007 0:50:18 GMT -5
I wouldn't recommend the net for information search on Bogomilism, most good sources are in Bosnian and those in English are mostly biased or not especially informative. Why? Maybe cause the English sources (=official in the world) do not support your dreams? Aha. I see. I guess those "books" also bear such scientific prooves u are the Illirians as our "books" of some interesting authors, that state we are direct desedants of the Egyptians. First problem in the idea. When Bogomilissm was established in Bulgaria there were no Pomaks (Bulgarians with islaamic religion), cause there were no Islam on the Bolkans. Hahahahaha. Actually u are proove that first thing that a person abandons is the religion and the believe. To "learn" a new language is the last thing a human abandons, thats why u speak Serb and the Pomaks-Bulgarian. So if u were already Assimilated how did this people know they were natives? These fairytales remind me of the Macaronians ones. This has nothing to to with u being "Ilirian". U were assimilated, yet u were native... How unlogical. Ok It was reaction to the catholic Rome. That makes sense. Funny. So a herasay of Christianity is the closest "religion" to the polytheistic religion (that was established in Ilyria)? Hahaha. Goddess Genusus was Virgin Mary? Cant see the link again. However, it was still a Christian heresy. The Bogomils believed in Jesus, not in Allah. So they didnt believe in trinity and in the cross and that was the similarities with Islam? how striking! Maybe there were some protestant ideas (I see only the disbelief in the church as such), but still Bogomilism was a christian heresy, influenced by Manichaeism and Paulicianism, which were considered very dualistic. Manichaeism’s origin is related to Zoroastrianism; that is why Bogomilism is sometimes indirectly connected to Zoroastrianism in the sense of its duality. which were the disbelieve in the trinity and the cross? Striking "similarities"!!! So striking that they eased transition from Christianity to Islaam But this doesnt explain how the "Thracian" Pomaks did convert to Islaam, because the Bogomilism was spread not only where they live, but actually mainly in Thrace. Plus till the arrival of the Turks there were almost no bogomils, so your "theory" is wishful thinking. In Bulgaria there are recorded forceful islamizations also, though there were voluntary, but not very much. Yes, for example the Pomaks are Bulgarians, which are desedants of the Thracians, the Slavs and the Bulgars. So the Pomaks as Bulgarians are desedants of the Thracians. But Pomak is a Old Bulgarian word, so they were Bulgarians? Tnx! Why half arent islamic?
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 15, 2007 1:32:07 GMT -5
Is this the end of Steppe Bulgar myth?
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Post by superman on Nov 15, 2007 2:25:08 GMT -5
the majority decided already
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 15, 2007 3:16:48 GMT -5
Ruse the (Turkic) Steppe Bulgar will be quite upset though. ;D
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Post by rusebg on Nov 15, 2007 5:16:40 GMT -5
This Bosnian is a very funny guy. He included another absurd theory to the the numerous such this forum is full of.
Bottomani, I can not be upset about a ridiculously constructed poll, started by a Turk, who easily erases whole centuries of our history like the first Bulgarian kingdom and partly the Second one. I can only feel sorry for him being so confused and ignorant.
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 15, 2007 5:58:55 GMT -5
Bottomani, I can not be upset about a ridiculously constructed poll, started by a Turk, who easily erases whole centuries of our history like the first Bulgarian kingdom and partly the Second one. I can only feel sorry for him being so confused and ignorant. OK, you are not upset, perhaps a bit nervous?
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Nov 15, 2007 7:48:09 GMT -5
This Bosnian is a very funny guy. He included another absurd theory to the the numerous such this forum is full of. Bottomani, I can not be upset about a ridiculously constructed poll, started by a Turk, who easily erases whole centuries of our history like the first Bulgarian kingdom and partly the Second one. I can only feel sorry for him being so confused and ignorant. Can a stepp Türk think about other than Bulgars states, 1st and 2nd, Volga Bulgars, Chuvash Bulgars - who cares?! We are not steppe ppl and the World see today Bulgarians as locals - that's all! P.S. The other funny thing is that a türk calls a Thracian for turk?! That I say is really confusing! Hey Rusetürk, you cannot make me upset at all - calling me so! I know very well who I am, but not you. The Illyrian_Bosniak made a mistake, giving his vote to steppe Bulgars. Steppe people's genes were absorbed long ago and do not exist here anymore. We look quite domestic - not türkic. P.S. I suspect Rusetürk and Co. are trying to high the votes for steppe Bulgars, login by different user names probably. The old tactics of Anittas!!
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Post by superman on Nov 15, 2007 11:12:40 GMT -5
started by a turk? now you say Rhezus is a turk? don't you think that sounds a little bit more pejorative? I mean the way you say it? so what if he's a turk? or Romanian might be as well..since when being a turk or else is wrong? you told that as if it's wrong to be started by anybody...
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Nov 15, 2007 19:08:05 GMT -5
Ruse is so confused.. He is a steppe türk himself, but wants me to appear as turk here?! I'm actually not!
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 16, 2007 1:55:17 GMT -5
Ruse the Steppe Bulgar seems very frustrated since he knows that "if he is a steppe Bulgar, then he is related to the Turks", and "if he is a native of Bulgaria, then he must admit that he is related to the Thracians".
Such a dilemma for this nomadic soul. ;D
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Post by superman on Nov 16, 2007 17:12:03 GMT -5
;D
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Post by captainalbania on Nov 17, 2007 17:00:37 GMT -5
Racially speaking, most bulgarians are eastern meds, so i'm assuming they are closer to what Thracians would have looked like, however, the 2 Bulgarians that i have met in real life (a chap named Ventz and a girl named Dani) both had some turanid features. Nevertheless, my vote went for Thracian.
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Nov 17, 2007 18:26:37 GMT -5
Ioan is Bulgarian? If he is, why does he use a Romanian name as his nickname? And what's with that Greek church??
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Nov 17, 2007 18:55:13 GMT -5
It's free to choose any name.. That church is in Greek orthodox style, but not a Greek one. You can see lot of these churches i.e. in Romania or Serbia too.
Captainalbania:
People in BG usually look as atlanto meds, which is typical Thracian.
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