ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 24, 2008 6:52:20 GMT -5
I ve heard on a Bulgarian little bit nationalistic TV program (on SKATS "ALL BULGARIANS TOGETHER") an old man saying that those Gorani (islamic) are Bulgarians and that in their folklore they were talking about "white Sofia". And that they should be welcomed in Bulgaria. Is it true? Can someone post links about it. I read on wikipedia that they are islamic but they celebrate Sava. From what I ve heard i think they are probably the Serbian analog of the Pomaks. Can someone shed light on this?
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Feb 24, 2008 11:03:21 GMT -5
Probaly similar to the Bosnjak or Pomak ppl. Muslim ppl of of sout-east Europe are usually the most indigenous ppl of the Balkans, not islamic from the begining though.
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Post by srbobran on Feb 24, 2008 11:46:38 GMT -5
No. In 2002 Bulgarian attempted to create a "Bulgarian Gorani Community" but it failed. They are Serbs, some view themselves as Bosniaks however.
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Post by bb681 on Feb 24, 2008 11:49:52 GMT -5
what do you mean by "attempted"?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 24, 2008 12:06:16 GMT -5
Muslim ppl of of sout-east Europe are usually the most indigenous ppl of the Balkans. Why? I dont see the connection? Why being islamic makes you "more indigenous"? Whats the link between the faith and the origin? I ve heard those rediculous claims by Bosniacs and I always wondered. If we have to speak the truth, those people are of a newer kind because before islam arived the Balkan people were all orthodox. Exept that faith doesnt have anything to do with nationality. Pomaks are Bulgarians.
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Post by iskender on Feb 24, 2008 13:30:51 GMT -5
Lol lol.I dont feal like am Bulgarian,I also have Gorani indentity but how long I live I and my brothers gorani allways says dad wie are Macedonian.
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Post by osmano on Feb 25, 2008 8:34:58 GMT -5
Muslim ppl of of sout-east Europe are usually the most indigenous ppl of the Balkans. Why? I dont see the connection? Why being islamic makes you "more indigenous"? Whats the link between the faith and the origin? There was this law for about 500 years in the Balkans that said that the turk soldiers had the right and obligation to have sex with your grandmothers,, the muslim population was excluded from this tradition,, therefore today we have something like 8% turk blood in the average “serb”.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Feb 25, 2008 8:42:28 GMT -5
Haha, the truth.. First of all, you are mixing up ethnicity and nationality. Before orthodox there was hednic multy-god belief, thracian orphism, etc. Ppl changed religious customs - that's already well known. That's why Pomaks or Bosnjaks are locals.. their religion is something which changed. And ethnically who are i.e. the Bulgarians - the steppe Bulgars, Slavs or Thracians??
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 25, 2008 12:28:32 GMT -5
Haha, the truth.. First of all, you are mixing up ethnicity and nationality. Before orthodox there was hednic multy-god belief, thracian orphism, etc. Ppl changed religious customs - that's already well known. That's why Pomaks or Bosnjaks are locals.. their religion is something which changed. And ethnically who are i.e. the Bulgarians - the steppe Bulgars, Slavs or Thracians?? The concept of ethnicity is somewhat multidimensional as it includes aspects such as race, origin or ancestry, identity, language and religion. It may also include more subtle dimensions such as culture, the arts, customs and beliefs and even practices such as dress and food preparation. It is also dynamic and in a constant state of flux. It will change as a result of new immigration flows, blending and intermarriage, and new identities may be formed. Nationality is a relationship between a person and their state of origin, culture, association, affiliation and/or loyalty. Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person, and affords the person the protection of the state. Traditionally under international law and conflict of laws principles, it is the right of each state to determine who its nationals are. Today the law of nationality is increasingly coming under more international regulation by various conventions on statelessness, as well as some multilateral treaties such as the European Convention on Nationality. SO I am not mistaking or mixing anything. Pomaks are ethnically AND nationaly BULGARIANS. Second, I still DONT see the connection between origin and faith. Third, the fact that Pomaks and Bosniaks CHANGED their religion doesnt have any connection with them being more local than the others, there is no link between both. So all Bulgarians before the Turks were orthodox. Why do we make the conclusion that those of them that converted to Islam are "more local"? I still dont see any proove. Forth, I dont see the conection between the origin of the Bulgarians and the muslims being local. Changing of the faith? All the people that contributed to the formation of our nation changed thier religion and so what?
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Post by pagane on Feb 26, 2008 7:36:22 GMT -5
Pomaks and Bosniaks are two fabricated ethnicities, just as Macedonains. They are the final product of plenty of false theories, propaganda and brainwashing. Also, having in mind the fact that Bulgaria have ruled over Kosovo for about 6 centuries, we can expect that there could be some small community left, can't we?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Feb 26, 2008 8:00:27 GMT -5
The Gorani, as a community, are divided in their allegiances. During the Serb occupation, there were Gorani villages which identified themselves as Serbian. I think a minority still does. This despite that their language shows more grammatical affinity with Slav Macedonian and Bulgarian as a consequence.
Today, there are those Goranis who identify with us Albanians, like the Goranis of Restelica. Then there are also the Goranis who identify as Bosniaks, like the village of Recan/Recane. So, you cannot explicitly say what Goranis are and what they are not. But, we know that they speak a language which shows affinity with Bulgarian/Slav Macedonian, that they were Orthodox originally but converted during the 1700s as a result of some quarrell with a Greek bishop if I remember correctly.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Feb 26, 2008 8:49:07 GMT -5
Ethnicity is about ethnic origin. You cannot say arabs are latins or magyars being germanic.. But local ppl converted to other religion have still same ethnic origin - they are not a "newer kind" (as you want to portray them).
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 26, 2008 14:38:57 GMT -5
Ethnicity is about ethnic origin. You cannot say arabs are latins or magyars being germanic.. But local ppl converted to other religion have still same ethnic origin - they are not a "newer kind" (as you want to portray them). You didnt get my analogy. What I wanted to say is that if there is one orthodox bulgarian and one islamic, both are as local. And that if we have to go on we have to say that the islamic one is a newer one because he has changed his religion later than the orthodox. However u still didnt present anything, a fact that shows a relation between faith and being local.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Feb 26, 2008 17:25:12 GMT -5
We are not talking about your kind of analogy.. Because if we talk analogy, then the steppe Bulgars are newer and not the locals. I told you before, these ppl have been both hednic and christian before converting to islam. By that time, in the Rhodope areas, the population was mainly of Thracian origin (non steppe ppl). You can easily see that in the pomak's appearance - they are mostly light haired, with no dark skin complexation. Bolgar's appearence was not the same though. That's how it is.
Now I presented you a fact - who are locals and who not.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 26, 2008 21:48:52 GMT -5
We are not talking about your kind of analogy.. Because if we talk analogy, then the steppe Bulgars are newer and not the locals. Thats true. They were new to the area. When the Turk took Bulgaria, all the Bulgarians were orthodox. How do u make this conclusion? There were mixture of Thracians, Slavs and Bulgars everywhere, because those people also speak Slavic, if your teory was true they wouldnt have been slavisized. That just proove that they can be Slavs, but not Thracians. The Thracians were locals Meditarenians. Just look at the Greeks and the Romanians. That "fact" actually prooves you are wrong! Neither the Thracian one.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Feb 27, 2008 7:31:35 GMT -5
That's what I was telling you..
When they took Bulgaria is another thing.. Those who changed religion were still locals and not newer ppl as you previously said.
Thracians were slavicized, but not mixed with bulgars.
Thracians were different from Greek.. Romanians are not dark ppl (if you don't count the gypsy minority). On the contrary, many Romanians are light skinned - bright eyes, light hair. Xenophane's quote even says that Thracians are light with red hair and fair in complexion (and different looking than the Greeks). Herodotus consider their physical appearence as also having European characteristics similar to the Nordics. Greek compaired to Thracians, were darker in coplextion, dark eyes and hair. That prooves you don't know you own ancestors!!
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 27, 2008 10:56:32 GMT -5
When they took Bulgaria is another thing.. Why? Those were Bulgarians, desedants of Thracians, Slavs and Bulgars, since at the time (1396) the mixture was made. I guess u know cause u were there? And how do u know that? We know that the ideal beauty for them was red hair/green eyes, but this doesnt mean they were such. On the contrary, when u rarely have some charecteristic, u are attracted more to them. For example a German girl would be worshipped in the Middle East cause opposites attrack, its natural, genes wanna meet different genes cause the closer one give opportunity for deviations. So a picture in the Thracian ruins with a woman with red hair/green eyes doesnt proove the Thracians were such, sorry. What I ve seen is that they are dark haired/dark eyed/ more lighter skin than the Greeks in other words Mediteranians, as we are (or most of us). they look indian (most at least). I dont have this impression and I know quite a few Romanians. Quote? Quote? Compared or the Thracians were all red haired/ green eyed? Cause if they looked like this, no one is desedant of them in Bulgaria and in Romania. Enlighten me! [/quote]
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Feb 27, 2008 14:42:03 GMT -5
You are now talking bulls... There are historical scripts revealing the appearance of Thracian ppl. Have you at least checked Herodotus, Xenophanes and Homerus. And this about "opposite attraction" is your own imagination, which so weired. On the contrary, by that time they did not "worshiped" anyother than their own ppl. You have to learn a lot!!
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Post by radovic on Feb 27, 2008 21:58:29 GMT -5
Slavic group. Language is considered part of the Torlakian dialect of Serbia. So any Bulgarian considering Torlak dialect speakers to be Bulgarian would say they are Bulgarian. Bulgarians, FYROMians view the language as being a dialect of their language.
The view that they are Bulgarian or FYROMians doesn't seem to be popular among the Gorani. The view that they are FYROMians is probably more common. the view that they are Bulgarian seems largely an attempt by some Gorani to get Bulgarian citizenship and head west.
The Gorani ciew is split between them being Serb or Bosniak. At present their are more Gorani in Serbia outside Kosovo then in the Gora region (this has been the case since before 1991).
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Feb 28, 2008 0:35:07 GMT -5
On the contrary, by that time they did not "worshiped" anyother than their own ppl. The indians in America had a white man for a supreme god. Quotes about apearances?
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