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Post by jerryspringer on Apr 25, 2008 10:05:54 GMT -5
1. Armenians are a noble people. They have a rich herritage. Don't use their name in vain.
2. Ivanov and Ruse/Pagane may be anti-Thracian, but it seems that Ioan is 'one of us'. Rhezys is correct in saying that you two shouldn't speak for all Bulgarians.
3. Greeks are not a Thracian people, but Thracians/Dacians and Greeks are related via the Mycenaeans. As far as I know, the Mycenaeans and the Thracians were once the same people, before they split. The Ionians and the Dorians intermarried with the Mycenaeans.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Apr 25, 2008 12:47:01 GMT -5
Anitas, as I said I think Thracians were our forefathers but, unlike Rhezus, I dont think we are just the Thracians and nothing else, they played a big part in the forming of the Bulgarian nation, but this nation is what it is tnx to the three elements Thracians, Slavs and Bulgars.
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Post by pagane on Apr 25, 2008 14:33:55 GMT -5
Rhezus is not correct when expressing his opinion as that of all Bulgarians either. And both me and Ivanov are more Bulgarians than him, that is certain.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Apr 25, 2008 16:47:10 GMT -5
Well said, Anittas! Ioan, what I say is we are predominantly Thracians. I don't remember saying "nothing else but Thracians" and you know it. Paganke, there's nothing which makes you more Bulgarian than others. May be you are more Irano-turkic?! Is that what you mean..
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Apr 25, 2008 23:37:56 GMT -5
Well u never said it but u act like we are the purest Thracians and u are ashamed of the Bulgars element in our nation and I am not. You often downplay the role of the Bulgars as state builders of todays Bulgaria and I never do.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Apr 26, 2008 20:49:59 GMT -5
I don't really bother about this. We can speculate a lot about states. I don't feel having a steppe origin.
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Post by vlaici on Apr 27, 2008 8:33:17 GMT -5
F or some reason Rhezus dislikes both Bulgaria and the Greece. Honestly, I and 99,99% of the Bulgarians don't care about the Thracians, and whether they were Bulgarized, Hellenized, Slavized, Albanized, ..etc. Well, might it be the reason I prefer Bulgarian forum instead of the Romanian one?!... Hristos a-nviat!
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Post by pagane on Apr 27, 2008 9:51:40 GMT -5
That is understanable, having in mind the fact you are not Bulgarian.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Apr 27, 2008 15:52:58 GMT -5
Not Bulgar, pagan woman.
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Post by pagane on Apr 28, 2008 3:43:23 GMT -5
In this regard, you, being the most profound Thracian nowadays, should be pagan too. Never heard your Rhezus was some sort of Orthodox ruler.
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Post by Ivanov on Apr 28, 2008 8:50:49 GMT -5
The world Bulgar does not exist in Bulgarian language. Bulgarian and Bulgar are one and the same word.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Apr 30, 2008 5:02:01 GMT -5
But in other languages... Gues why.
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Post by jerryspringer on Apr 30, 2008 9:49:25 GMT -5
Because some scholars decided it to be so. Much like the difference between Turkic and Turkish. In Romanian, we only have the word "bulgar." Aternatively, we use "ceafa groasa."
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Post by pagane on Apr 30, 2008 10:32:50 GMT -5
This wasn't nice, I guess. Are you being an impolite person?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Apr 30, 2008 13:31:00 GMT -5
what does that mean
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Post by whenever on Apr 30, 2008 23:34:52 GMT -5
Yes, Thracians could have been Celtic people; however, they were probably not. Herodotus in his book five describes Thracians in a suspiciously "Celtic" way - as ...""ruddy (red-haired) and blue-eyed people"; Xenophanes confirms to their Celtic physical appearance: "...those of the Thracians have blue eyes and red hair...." Celtic or not, it is obvious from the above that at least upper class Thracians did not belong to the Mediterranean world in their physical appearance....hence, they were "intruders" to this world, ancient invaders of the Balkan area. However, my personal suspicion would be that they weren't Celts - what has left from their language shows affinity with the Scythians, not with Celts 1. There are two major branches in the Indo-European languages, that shows an ancient division - Centum group, where linguistically belong Germans, Celts, Romans and Greeks, and SATEM group - where belong indo-Iranians, Scythes, Slavonic people, Thracians and Armenians. 2.There are more traces that point towards "Scythian" affinity - the names of about 30 ancient Thracian villages in what is now eastern Bulgaria consist the root "bria" (see MesemBRIA", which is agreed to be the Scythian word for "wall"; 3. The horsemanship of the Thracians - the horses were considered way more important than the women, as all Thracian burials reveal horse sacrifices, at least, again, in the upper class, there is a lot of ritualistic and material evidence for cultural connections between Thracian burial mounds from Balkan area and the Scythian burial mounds from the pontic steppe area. 4. There is more, like the metallurgical and technological affinity between the Thracian the Scythian knives and daggers, which were technologically interconnected. 5. One more thing - both groups are known to use cannabis in their (not so) religious rituals... Based and the above - language, physical appearance, culture, horsemanship, etc. it is not that hard to imagine Thracians as once nomadic intruders from the Scythian steppe, that have penetrated the Mediterranean farming cultures about 40 centuries ago, and settled there, slowly becoming mostly agrarian community, merging with the local "Neolithic farmers" but still keeping many of their pontic-steppe appearance, customs and traits...
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Post by Rhezus on May 1, 2008 7:50:00 GMT -5
How come Greek belong into this "CENTUM" group?! Their lang. has no connections to the one of Germans, Celts or Romans.
"Bria" is a Daco/Thracian word which actually means "town". The word "para" also was widely used - meanig "settlement".
Thracian burial ceremonies included all their belongings, since they belived in resurrection. Scythinans lived quite close to the Thracians and Dacians. So.. very possible they were influnced in a certain way from each other..
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Post by jerryspringer on May 1, 2008 8:10:48 GMT -5
I thought it was dava.
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Post by whenever on May 1, 2008 14:10:56 GMT -5
How come Greek belong into this "CENTUM" group?
I do not know, I am not a linguist. But it does. From Wikipedia (pretty biased) :"...The Satem languages include Indo-Iranian, Armenian, Baltic, Slavic, Albanian, and ..... Thracian and Dacian. The Centum group includes Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Greek and possibly ...Tocharian" Long story short - these language "tags", assigned by the linguists come from the observed evolution of the word "Kentum" - "one hundred" in PIE and Latin; in Centum languages "K" is ultimately replaced by "C" = Kentum=>Centum; in Satem group K is replaced by "S" - Kentum=>Sentum; Linguists have noticed that these replacements have occurred not only in the word "kentum", but in most of the PIE words, once beginning with a "K", hence, there is a pattern, that speaks of an old separation between the indo-European tribes, as Thracians and Celts do not fall in the same group. It was believed once that the this linguistic division is somehow geographical - western European languages evolved into Catem, east Indo-European - into Sentum. However, when in 1920s the texts of the most eastern-located European tribe -Tocharians, were discovered, in what is now Tarim basin in China, it became clear that Tocharian was actually "western", Centum language. Since the discovery of Tocharian language, it is believed that language division is not geographical, but rather temporal - the first wave of migrating indo-European tribes spoke Centum; The tribes from the second wave of migration - Thracians, Scythians etc. spoke Satem, before they break. Thus Satem is believed to be a linguistic innovation from the hart of the PIE homeland, an innovation, that occurred AFTER the first wave of IE tribes - Tocharians, Greeks, Germans etc. have dispersed in all directions, leaving their homeland behind. However, providing that linguistic affinity does not means ethnic affinity, I would not be surprised if one day it turns out that there is a relation between the Celtic and Thracian tribes. Regards.
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Post by Rhezus on May 1, 2008 16:49:55 GMT -5
Yes, "dava"/"deva" is another similar word (may be bigger bigger or smaller?!). Indo-iranian and Armenian belong to a same group, but Baltic, Slavonic, Thraco/dacian or Albanian don't. Too much of deviation.. Sooner Greek is likely to be a "satem" lang.
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