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Post by Edlund on Jun 6, 2008 5:58:30 GMT -5
blog.veni.com/?p=500A little introduction: Veni Markovski is son of Venko Markovski - one of the creators of the "Macedonian" language. These are the creators of the "Macedonian" language. Venko Markovski is the one standing at the far right. Venko was born in Skopje in 1915 as Bulgarian. Later he became an active communist, and the Communistic International ordered the creation of the Macedonian nation, so he participated in the creation. However, he was a supporter of Stalin, so in 1956 he was sent to Goli Otok. After he was kicked out of Skopje he went to Sofia to become a Bulgarian communist. He wrote books denying the existence of Macedonian nation. Now on the subject: His son has made a research of his DNA from his father’s side via the Genographic Project of National Geographic. It turns out that his ancestors from his father's side were living in the Balkans about 20 000 years ago. No Central or Far Asians. The results of Veni are not exception. Many Bulgarians have made genetic tests and the results are clear - the majority of Bulgarians originate from populations, who lived on the Balkans many thousands of years.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 6, 2008 6:16:52 GMT -5
So? He was not Bulgarian cause he didnt have central asian genes? First Bulgarian doesnt equal central asian genes. Bulgars are just one of the tribes that contributed genetically to the formation of the Bulgarian nation. Bulgarian is a term, which means an individual with mother tongue Bulgarian, with Bulgarian culture, Bulgaria traditions, Bulgarian lifestyle. Bulgars, as sentral asian people, influenced all those, but nowadays Bulgarians DO NOT equal Bulgars. Thus, the genetic research do not proove macos werent Bulgarians. What is important is that fyrom people identified as Bulgarians for centuries, spoke Bulgarian, shared the same traditions and lifestyle as us, Bulgarians from nowadays Bulgaria. All else is just propaganda.
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Post by Edlund on Jun 6, 2008 6:37:22 GMT -5
So? He was not Bulgarian cause he didnt have central asian genes? Are you blind? Where have I said that he is not Bulgarian? My point is, that Bulgarians generally have as much Asian genes as other Balkanian peoples - almost none. Bulgarians are genetically closest to Greeks and Romanians. How come you're talking about some "Central Asian Bulgars"? Where are your proofs that such people existed?
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 6, 2008 7:42:54 GMT -5
Are you blind? Where have I said that he is not Bulgarian? Ok sorry if I misinterpretted you. But the thing is, many mistake Bulgars with Bulgarians, but they are not equal. Yes I ve heard it and I know we have simmilar grammer rules with them. Bulgars deffinately existed. There is enough historic data that they did indeed existed. Also their first state organization (Old Great Bulgaria)was situated on lands, north of the Black sea so there is strong posibility they migrated from asia to europe. What is not proven is their origin, ethnic conposition. There are not enough proofs to clasify them as Turkic, Ugro-Finns, Iranians. Thats all left for debate yet.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 6, 2008 7:58:01 GMT -5
ok mersi besarab, surbite sa dosta drazneshti s tyahnata antibulgarska propaganda. ot druga strana, az mislya, 4e dori prabulgarite da sa bili centralno aziatzi, facta 4e v makedonez ne sa otkriti zentralnoaziatski geni ne zna4i 4e ne e bulgarin, tui kato bulgarin e kulturna, etni4eska identi4nost, plus tova prabulgarite naistina sa samo element (makar i vagen) ot bulgarskata nazia.
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Post by benkovski on Jun 8, 2008 3:52:21 GMT -5
The role of Bulgars in the formation of today’s Bulgarians has been purposefully overlooked as it was not in tact with the policies of communism and Russian/Slavic brotherhood. This is now beginning to change as many of the facts that were distorted during the communist regime are beginning to emerge. It seems that more scholars today agree that the largest ethnic contribution in Bulgarians today comes from Bulgars. And the terms Bulgarian and Bulgar can and should be used synonymously as they only differ in the fact that they each designate a different period in Bulgarian history. The main point is that during communism it was emphasized that the very few Bulgars somehow managed to defeat the all mighty East Roman Empire and subjugate the countless Slav inhabitants of the region. However, even though, the Bulgars/Bulgarians were outstanding military tacticians they weren’t magicians. When Asparuh faced the East Roman armies, the communist history books claimed that the Bulgar armies numbered 10,000 – 15,000. On the other hand, the Byzantine armies numbered around 80,000. Again, I know Bulgars were great warriors but.. anyway, I recommend the book “12 Ìèòà â Áúëãàðñêàòà Èñòîðèÿ” – Áîæèäàð Äèìèòðîâ È íà Áúëãàðñêè íèå ñå íàðè÷àìå Áúëãàðè. Äóìàòà å åäíà.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 8, 2008 4:58:22 GMT -5
But every Bulgarian historian does make difference between protobulgarians and nowadays Bulgarians. "It seems that more scholars today agree that the largest ethnic contribution in Bulgarians today comes from Bulgars." And how do they proove it? Or is it just wishful thinking? Truth is, we will never really find what their real contribution was to the Bulgarian nation genetically. Looking at our language, culture and appearance (if they were indeed central asian race), their contribution was not great. I mean especially the language obviously is totally Slavic with some charesteristics that we share with the other balkan neighbours (which means they probably came through the Thracian element) However, Bulgar contribution as state builders is undisputed and the most important.
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Post by rusebg on Jun 8, 2008 17:34:29 GMT -5
The fact is that - Bulgars were the only undoubtful creators of today's Bulgarian nation. The rest, especially Thracians, are product of wanna-be thinking. That is what the facts state.
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Post by benkovski on Jun 8, 2008 18:27:29 GMT -5
Ioan, you are absolutely right that it’s not easy to determine the exact ethnic contribution of Bulgars, Thracians, and Slavs in the formation of today’s Bulgarians. But, there is definite proof of what the communist propaganda was and what it was trying to pass off as historically accurate. I attended a guest lecture of Professor Ivan Ilchev, one of the top history professors in Sofia’s St. Kliment Ohridski University. During that lecture, he clearly gave examples of purposeful misinterpretations of Bulgarian history. Bulgarian historians during communism wrote history the way that our Russian brothers told them to. Everything Slavic was emphasized, even Thracian, and everything Bulgarian was omitted. They aimed to create a sort of pan-Slavic unity with Bulgaria and other Slav speaking nations. Now, apparently, the oldest Russian chronicle dating back to the 10th century called the Bulgarians violent oppressors of the Balkan Slavs. There was no such union between Bulgars and Slavs as the communists wanted, rather, Bulgars subjugated many Slavs, killed many, and resettled or expelled others. In fact, the Slavic ethnic element within Bulgarians today doesn’t come from the Balkan Slavs. As Asparuh settled south of the Danube, all Slavs living in those areas were settled on the border lands of the Bulgarian Empire. There are at least three instances that are known where hundreds of thousands of Slavs ask to settle in lands outside of the Bulgarian Empire. I forget the exact years but, about 50,000 – 100,000 Slavs request lands in Anatolia from the East Roman Empire as they were unhappy with their living arrangements in Bulgaria. During the reign of Krum or possibly Omurtag, about 100,000 to 150,000 Slavs requested lands to settle from the Frankish Empire. Additionally, Paissii Hilendarki’s Slav-Bulgarian History was originally called Bulgarian History. So, if there was ever a large scale assimilation of Slavs by the Bulgarians, it couldn’t have taken place in the Balkans but possibly at some earlier time. Furthermore, Ivan Ilchev was telling us how the Russian cultural leaders appointed to Bulgaria during communism would take a big red marker and scratch out entire pages and documents that discussed Bulgaria and its people. In one of Bojidar Dimitrov’s books, I read that as a student he was told by his teachers to go to Bulgarian archeological digs and move or replace certain artifacts that didn’t fit with the communist point of view of Bulgarian history. Considering this, our historians are currently re-evaluating the role that the ancient Bulgarians played in our ethnic character today. The Thracian theories were also communist inspired, and a key figure in this supposed aspect of our history was Todor Zhivkov’s daughter, Liudmila. It seems she had too much free time on her hands and decided to write fairy tale books for children and then present them as history. Once more, I am not disputing that the ancient Bulgarians have assimilated many other peoples, but it appears that the largest ethnic component in Bulgarians today comes from the ancient Bulgarians. Ruse, I completely agree with you and I think more Bulgarians are beginning to see this every day.  èíòåðåñ íà èñòèíàòà, åäíè õîðà ñìå, äàæå è òîÿ ïè÷ Ðåçóñ å ñúùèÿ êàòî íàñ, ñàìî å ìàëêî çàáëóäåí êàêòî ñà è íàùå áðàòÿ Ìàêåäîíöè. Êîé íà êàêâàòî òåîðèÿ èçêà äà âÿðâà, áåç çíà÷åíèå å. Âàæíîòî å äà íå çàáðàâÿìå, ÷å ñìå åäíè è ñúùè è äà ïîìíèì ÷å çàäíî è îáèäåíåíè ñìå ñèëíè. Ïîçäðàâ íà âñè÷êè áðàòÿ Áúëãàðè îò Ìàêåäîíèÿ, Òðàêèÿ, Ìèçèÿ.
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Post by Edlund on Jun 9, 2008 4:06:09 GMT -5
I attended a guest lecture of Professor Ivan Ilchev, one of the top history professors in Sofia’s St. Kliment Ohridski University. During that lecture, he clearly gave examples of purposeful misinterpretations of Bulgarian history. Bulgarian historians during communism wrote history the way that our Russian brothers told them to. Ivan Ilchev was one of them - Link: Îò 1978 ã. å àñèñòåíò â Èñòîðè÷åñêèÿ ôàêóëòåò íà ÑÓ, îò 1981 ã. å êàíäèäàò íà èñòîðè÷åñêèòå íàóêè ñ äîêòîðñêà äèñåðòàöèÿ íà òåìà „Áúëãàðèÿ â áàëêàíñêàòà àíãëèéñêà ïîëèòèêà (1913 — 1918). Ïðåç 1987 ã. ñòàâà äîöåíò ïî íîâà è íàé-íîâà èñòîðèÿ íà áàëêàíñêèòå íàðîäè. Îò 1993 ã. å äîêòîð íà èñòîðè÷åñêèòå íàóêè — äîêòîðñêà òåçà “Ðîäèíàòà ìè — ïðàâà èëè íå! Âúíøíîïîëèòè÷åñêà ïðîïàãàíäà íà áàëêàíñêèòå íàðîäè". Ïðåç 1995 ã. ñòàâà ïðîôåñîð ïî íîâà è íàé-íîâà èñòîðèÿ íà áàëêàíñêèòå íàðîäè.
Ãîñò-ïðîôåñîð â Äúðæàâíèÿ óíèâåðñèòåò íà ùàòà Îõàéî, Êàëúìáúñ è Ìåðèëåíäñêèÿ äúðæàâåí óíèâåðñèòåò (1984-1986), Öåíòúðà „Óóäðîó Óèëñúí“, Âàøèíãòîí (1990-1991), ÑÀÙ, Óíèâåðñèòåòà íà ×èáà, ßïîíèÿ (1999-2000).
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Post by besarab on Jun 11, 2008 7:40:30 GMT -5
benkovski ,ruse absoliutno ste pravi eblund vsushtnost ne suznava che tezite mu sa panslavistki,demek proruski.v oficialnata ruska istoriografia doskoro se smiatashe che bulgarite sa bili neznachitelno po broi pleme[kazvaha cifri mejdu 20-do 50 000 ],tui kato poradi mnogobroinite fakti i svidetelstva ne mogat da budat izcialo zachertani.hipotezata che prabulgarite sa slaviani sushto e rusko izobretenie.izglejda bulgarskoto nasledstvo mnogo im prechi da si provejdat panslavistkata politika -i tuk na balkanite i v samata rusia .tam i v kievska rus i v severnite kniajestva rusite duljat izcialo civilizacionnoto si razvitie na bulgarite i otchasti na skandinavcite i vizantiicite.eto zashto gi otrichat i eto zaSHTO eblund e v zabluda
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Post by besarab on Jun 11, 2008 8:16:23 GMT -5
Íåêà äà ïðèïîìíèì ìåæäó äðóãîòî êîè ñà àâòîðèòå íà ò.íàð. ñëàâÿíñêàõèïîòåçà çà ïðîèçõîäà íà áúëãàðèòå. Çà íåèí îñíîâîïîëîæíèê ñå ñìÿòà ñúðáèíúò Éîâàí Ðàè÷ â òðóäà ìó ,íàïèñàí íà ðóñêè åçèê..Èñòîðèÿ ðàçíûõ ñëàâÿíñêèõ íàðîäîâ,íàéïà÷å áîëãàð,õîðâàòîâ è ñåðáîâ... äðóãè ïî èçâåñòíè ñà Þ.Âåíåëèí,Ñ.Óâàðîâ,Ï.áóòêîâ,Â.Ôëîðèíñêè òóêà ãîâîðÿò èìåíàòà -íå àç ïî âðåìå íà êîìóíèçìà òàçè òåçà ó íàñ áåøå ïî ñëàáîçàñòúïåíà_êàòî êðàéíî íåíàó÷íà, íî áåøå âúçïðèåòà êîìïðîìèñíàòà çà íåçíà÷èòåëíèÿ áðîé áúëãàðè òóðàíöè; êúì 80òå ãîäèíè âå÷å,êîãàòî Ëþäìèëà Æèâêîâà îãëàâè êîìèòåòà ïî êóëòóðà,òåçè ïàíñëàâèñòêè òåçè áÿõà îòõâúðëåíè è ñå äàäå ãëàñíîñò íà ðåäèöà ñòàðè èçñëåäâàíèÿ ,îñîáåíî íà Âàñèë Çëàòàðñêè à è Èâàí áîãäàíîâ îò ïî íîâèòå òðÿáâà äà ñå êàæå ,÷å âúïðîñúò çà ïðîèçõîäà íà áúëãàðèòå âèíàãè å êîðåñïîíäèðàë ñúñ ñúâðåìåííè ïîëèòè÷åñêè ìåðàöè.Çàòîâàòðÿáâàäà ñå èçñëåäâà êîìïëåêñíî, à íå êàòî åäëóíä àìàòüîðñêè ñ öèòàò÷åòà , êàòî ÷å ëè öèòàòúò ñå ðàâíÿâà íà ïèñìèí èñòîðè÷åñêè ïàìåòíèê. àç,íàñòðàíè îò îñíîâíèòå õèïîòåçè,ïîääúðæàì íåùî äðóãî,çàðàäè êîåòî ìîÿò ïðîôåñîð ïî åçèêîçíàíèå íàâðåìåòî ìè ïèñà 2 êà ìîãà äà êàæà àêî íÿêîé ñå èíòåðåñóâà
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Post by Edlund on Jun 11, 2008 9:12:20 GMT -5
Íåêà äà ïðèïîìíèì ìåæäó äðóãîòî êîè ñà àâòîðèòå íà ò.íàð. ñëàâÿíñêàõèïîòåçà çà ïðîèçõîäà íà áúëãàðèòå. Çà íåèí îñíîâîïîëîæíèê ñå ñìÿòà ñúðáèíúò Éîâàí Ðàè÷ â òðóäà ìó ,íàïèñàí íà ðóñêè åçèê..Èñòîðèÿ ðàçíûõ ñëàâÿíñêèõ íàðîäîâ,íàéïà÷å áîëãàð,õîðâàòîâ è ñåðáîâ... äðóãè ïî èçâåñòíè ñà Þ.Âåíåëèí,Ñ.Óâàðîâ,Ï.áóòêîâ,Â.Ôëîðèíñêè òóêà ãîâîðÿò èìåíàòà -íå àç Ïè÷, èäè ñå ïðåãëåäàé. Îò öåëèÿ ñëàâÿíñêè ðîä íàé-ñëàâíè ñà áèëè áúëãàðèòå, ïúðâî òå ñà ñå íàðåêëè öàðå, ïúðâî òå ñà èìàëè ïàòðèàðõ, ïúðâî òå ñà ñå êðúñòèëè, íàé-ìíîãî çåìÿ òå çàâëàäåëè. Òàêà îò öåëèÿ ñëàâÿíñêè ðîä áèëè íàé-ñèëíè è íàé-ïî÷èòàíè è ïúðâèòå ñëàâÿíñêè ñâåòöè è ïðîñèÿëè îò áúëãàðñêèÿ ðîä è åçèê, êàêòî è çà òîâà ïîäðåä íàïèñàõ â òàÿ èñòîðèÿ.Ïàèñèé Õèëåíäàðñêè - Ñëàâÿíîáúëãàðñêà èñòîðèÿ, 1762Éîâàí Ðàè÷ ïèøå ïðåç 1794:
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Post by besarab on Jun 12, 2008 0:37:50 GMT -5
îîîî åëà áîæå,ïîìîçè èìàø åäíà ãðåø÷èöà,àìà àéäå îòêðèé ñè ÿ ñàì
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Post by benkovski on Jun 12, 2008 22:29:44 GMT -5
Áåñàðàá, îïðåäåëåíî ñè ïðàâ. Ðóñíàöèòå ñà ïîëó÷èëè îãðîìåí ïúðâîíà÷àëåí òëàñúê îò Áúëãàðèòå... è èêîíîìè÷åñêè, è äúðæàâåí, è êóëòóðåí. Ñúùîòî íåùî å èñòèíà çà ìíîãî äðóãè íàðîäè. È íà âñè÷êè ÷óæäè ïîëèòèöè, äîðè è íà íÿêîèè îò íàùå, òîâà ÿâíî íå èì å áèëî óäà÷íî äà ãî êàçâàò è ïîêàçâàò êàòî ñà èìàëè ïúðâî íà ïúðâî ëè÷íèòå ñè ïîëèòè÷åñêè êàðèåðè. Àêî Áúëãàðèÿ áåøå îñòàâåíà äà ñå çàäúðæè îáåäèíåíà ïîä Ñàí Ñòåâàíñêèÿ ìèðåí äîãîâîð, âåðîÿòíî ùÿõìå äà ñìå äîñòàòà÷íî äèïëîìàòè÷íè äà èçáåãíåì äâåòå ñâåòîâíè âîéííè, è ñëåäîâàòåëíî, êîìóíèçìà. Ñúùî òàêà ïðåäïîëàãàì ùÿõìå äà ñå áîðèì çà íàøèÿò ëè÷åí Áúëãàðñêè èíòåðåñ à íå çà èíòåðåñèòå íà äðóãèòå. Àêî ñå áåøå ïîëó÷èëî òàêà, ñåãà Áúëãàðè êàòî îíÿ îáúðêàíèÿ íÿìàøå äà ïóñêàò òåìè êàòî 'Êîèè ñìå íèå', è íèå íÿìàøå äà ñïîðèì çà êîé íàðîä å èçåãðàë ãëàâíàòà ðîëÿ âúâ ôîðìèðàíåòî íà äíåøíèòå Áúëãàðè. Îò íîâî êàçàì, çà ìåí, è êàêòî èçãëåæäà íàòàì ñà òðúãíàëè äà ñå äâèæàò äîñòà èñòîðèöè, Áúëãàðèòå ïðîèçëèçàò îò Áúëãàðè. Äðóãèòå ïëåìåíà ñà áèëè àñèìèëèðàíè òúé êàòî òå ñà áèëè ìàëöèíñòâàòà â Áúëãàðñêèòå äúðæàâè è öàðñòâà. Ìíîãî ôàêòè ñà áèëè ïðåêðèâàíè è èçêðèâÿâàíè çà äà âúçâèøàò ïðèíîñà íà Ñëàâÿíè èëè Òðàêè, êîéòî èçãëåæäà å áèë ìèíèìàëåí. Åäëóíä, çà ñúæàëåíèå èñòîðèÿòà íà Ïàèñèé ñúùî å áèëà èçïîëçâàíà êàòî èíñòðóìåíò íà êîìóíèçìà. Ìèñëÿ ÷å òÿ ìîæå äà ñå âçèìà íà ñåðèîçíî ñàìî êîãàòî çàñÿãà òåìè êîèòî íå ñà êúñàåëè äèðåêòíèòå Ðóñêè èíòåðåñè.
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Post by besarab on Jun 13, 2008 6:15:13 GMT -5
å-íå,íå Íå ìîæå äà ñå êàæå ,÷å ïðèíîñúò íà ñëàâÿíñêèÿ åëåìåíò å áèë íèùîæåí ,ñëåä êàòî âñå ïàê ãîâîðèì ñëàâÿíñêè åçèê.Íåêà íå îòèâàìå â äðóãàòà êðàéíîñò è ïîäîáíî íî åäëóä äà îòðè÷àìå íåùî ,êîåòî å ñúùåñòâåíà ÷àñò îò íàøàòà èäåíòè÷íîñò. Êîëêîòî äî Ïàèñèåâàòà èñòîðèÿ -ñìåøíî å òÿ äà ñå ïðåäñòàâÿ êàòî äîêóìåíò ñ íàó÷íî ñúäúðæàíèå.Òóê ãîâîðèì çà íàó÷íè õèïîòåçè ,íàëè òàêà.Èíà÷å å âåðíî,÷å íàøåòî âúçðàæäàíå ,çà ÷èåòî íà÷àëî ñå ñìÿòà èñòîðèÿòà íà ïàèñèé å ìèíàëî ïîä âëèÿíèåòî íà ñëàâÿíñêèÿ íîåðîìàíòèçúì ,àéäå òàêà äà ãî íàðå÷åì Íå ñå ïðèòåñíÿâàéòå íèêîãà äà ïðèçíàâàòå ôàêòà ,÷å íàøèÿò íàðîä èìà òðè ñòúëáà íà èäåíòè÷íîñòòà ñè-ïðàáúëãàðñêè,ñëàâÿíñêè è òðàêèéñêè.Ãëóïàâî è âðåäíî å äà ñå ñïîðè êîé îò òðèòå å íàé âàæåí-êàìî ëè ïúê äà ñå îòðè÷à íÿêîé îò òÿõ-áèëî êîé.  òîâà îòíîøåíèå íèå íå ñìå óíèêàëåí íàðîä,ìíîãî äðóãè ñúâðåìåííè åâðîïåéñêè íàöèè ñà èçãðàäåíè ïî ïîäîáåí íà÷èí,íåêà ñàìî ñïîìåíåì ôðàíöóçèòå)ôðàíêè,ãàëè è ðèìëÿíè) èëè àíãëè÷àíèòå)êåëòè,ðèìëÿíè,ñàêñîíöè è íîðìàíè) Çíàéòå ,÷å ïîäîáíè ñïîðîâå ïîìîãîò íî íàøèòå âðàãîâå -ïðîñòî è ÿñíî-òîâà å èñòèíàòà
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Post by benkovski on Jun 20, 2008 22:07:46 GMT -5
Áåñàðàá, ïðèíîñà íà ñëàâÿíñêèÿ åëåìåíò â ñðúâíåíèå ñ Áúëãàðñêèÿò å çíà÷èòåëíî ïî ìàëàê. Òîâà êîåòî ãî ïðàâè íèùîæåí å êîìóíèñòè÷åñêèÿ ïîäõîä êúì Áúëãàðñêàòà èñòîðèÿ è òÿõíàòà íóæäà äà íè íàïðàâÿò ñëàâÿíè ÷ðåç ëúæè, ïðîïàãàíäà, è óìèøëèíè ïðåêðèâàíèÿ è èçêðèâÿâàíèÿ íà ôàêòè.
Òîâà ÷å åçèêàò íè èìà ïðåäèìíî ñëàâÿíñêè äóìè íå íè ïðàâè ñëàâÿíè. Âñå ïàê ãðàìàòèêàòà íà Áúëãàðñêèÿò åçèê å ðàçëè÷íà îò äðóãèòå ñëàâÿíñêè åçèöè. Ñúùî òàêà åçèêà íà õîðàòà ñå ïðîìåíÿ áúðçî è ëåñíî. Ïðèìåðíî â ãúðöèÿ ñå å ãîâîðèë ñàìî ëàòèíñêè äîêàòî íå ñà íàïðàâèëè ãðúöêèÿ îôèöèàëåí íÿêàäå êúì 3-4 âåê. Òóðñêèÿ åçèê ïî âðåìåòî íà îñìàíñêàòà èìïåðèÿ å áèë ìíîãî ïî ðàçëè÷åí îò åçèêà êîéòî òóðöèòå ãîâîðÿò ñåãà. Ðóìúíöèòå ñúùî ñà ãîâîðèëè åçèê êîèòî äî ñêîðî å áèë íåùî êàòî 30% ñëàâÿíñêè.
Êàêòî èçãëåæäà åçèêà íà åäíà ñòðàíà è åäèí íàðîä ìíîãî ñå âëèÿå îò ïîëèòè÷åñêèòå èíòåðåñè íà äúðæàâàòà.
È äà, ñúãëàñåí ñúì ÷å ñïîð ìåæäó íàñ ñè Áúëãàðèòå êàòî öÿëî íå òðÿáâà äà èìà. Íî êîãàòî èìà, òðÿáâà äà ñè îñòàâà ñàìî ïî ìåæäó íè, è äà ïîìíèì ÷å ñè÷êè ñìå ñè åäíè è ñúùè.
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Post by besarab on Jun 21, 2008 2:53:45 GMT -5
ne e malak prinosa na slavianskia element verno e che izborut na ezik v edna durjava chesto e politicheski izbor i rpi nas tozi izbor e stanal oshte prez 9 vek-ne bez namesata na vizantia bih kazal. no taka ili inace nie sme naslednici na horata koito sa prieli tozi izbor,a ne na tezi koito sa go othvurlili.tezi koito sa othvurlili ezika i hristianstvoto boris gi e izbil :)mnogo e vajno da se razbere che slavianskiat ezik e idval zaedno s hristianstvoto-tezi dve neshta sa nerazrivno svurzani. drugo kakvo beshe-a da-latinskiat ezik e bil osnoven do 3 vek ne v gurcia a vuv vizantia ,koiato ne e nishto drugo osven rimska imperia taka che tva e neshto drugo sega-poneje ezikut e osnovniat beleg po koito se opredelia identichnostta na edin narod,a nie govorim slavianski-to nie bez sumnenie sme slaviani generalno.taka sme i vuzpriemani ot ostanalia sviat.no sme unikalni mejdu drugite slaviani i tova e verno sushto zashtoto imeto ni ne e slaviansko taka --v tozi forum imame trima mladeji na diametralno protivopolojni pozicii otnosno identichnostta hahah obzalagam se che i trimata jiveete v chujbina taka li e
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Post by benkovski on Jun 21, 2008 12:35:30 GMT -5
Ïðèíîñà íà Ñëàâÿíèòå â íàøåòî ðàçâèòèå å ïðåäèìíî åòíè÷åñêè. Òîâà ÷å åçèêà è ãîëÿìà ÷àñò îò íàøåòà êóëòóðà ñà ñðîäíè ñ äðóãè Ñëàâÿíñêè íàðîäè å áèëî Áúëãàðñêî ïîëèòè÷åñêî ðåøåíèå.
Ñåãà, âúâ âðúçêà ñ áðîéêàòà íà Áúëãàðè è ñëàâÿíè.. Ñúìíèòåëíîòî íåùî å ÷å ïî âðåìå íà êóìóíèçìà ñå å ïèñàëî: Áúëãàðèòå äîøëè íà Áàëêàíèòå 681. Òîâà çíàåì ÷å å ëúæà. Áúëãàðè (Êóòðèãóðè) å èìàëî çàñåëåíè â Òðàêèÿ îùå îò 4òè âåê, à ìîæå äàæå è îò ïî ðàíî. 681 (èëè ìîæå áè 680, èëè 679, ñàìàòà ãîäèíà å áèëà èçêóñòâåíî ñëîæåíà ïî èçïîð íà Ðóñèÿ) ã. å ïðîñòî ãîäèíàòà êîãàòî Àñïàðóõ îôèöèÿëíî ðåøàâà äà ðàçøåðè Áúëãàðñêèòå ãðàíèöè íà þã îò Äóíàâà. È òîâà å ïðîñî ãîäèíàòà, â êîéÿòî Âèçàíòèÿ îôèöèàëíî ïðåçíàâà Ìèçèÿ êàòî Áúëãàðñêà çåìÿ.
Äðóãîòî íåùî å, ÷å ïî âðåìåòî íà êóìóíèçìà ñå êàçâàëî ÷å òåçè 10-15,000 Áúëãàðè ñà óñïÿëè äà ïîêîðÿò îãðîìíîòî Ñëàâÿíñêî ìîðå è äà ïîäåäàò âåëèêàòà È. Ðèìñêà èìïåðèÿ. Êàêòî êàçàõ ïî ðàíî, Áúëãàðèòå ñìå áèëè âåëèêè âîéííè, íî íå ñìå áèëè ôîêóñíèöè. Èñòèíàòà å ÷å Âèçàíòèÿ å èçïðàòèëà àðìèÿ îò 60-80,000 äà ñå ñïðàâè ñ Àñïàðóõ. Íî, íå ñà óñïÿëè. Ïî ïðåöåíêà íà Áîæèäàð Äèìèòðîâ, òîâà îçíà÷àâà ÷å Áúëãàðñêàòà àðìèÿ íà Àñïàðóõ å òðÿáâàëî äà áúäå ìåæäó 60-100,000 çà äà ïîáåòè. Ñëåäîâàòåëíî, Áúëãàðñêèòå æåíè, äåöà, è ñòàðöè ïðåñåêëè ÄÓíàâà ñà íàáðîéÿâàëè ìåæäó 200,000-300,000. Çíà÷è, çà äà ïîñòèãíàò òîâà êîåòî å áèëî Áúëãàðèòå íà Àñïàðóõ ñà áèëè îáùî 200,000 - 400,000. Ñúùî òàêà, Áúëãàðèòå íà Êóáåð çàñåëèëè ñå â Ìàêåäîíèÿ ñà áèëè ìåæäó 50-150,000. À è Êðóì, å îáåäåíèë Ïàíîíñêèòå Áúëãàðè, òåçè êîèèòî íå ñà òðúãíàëè ñ Êúáåð êúì Ìàêåäîíèÿ.. òÿõíàòà áðîéêà å áèëà îêîëî 20-50,000. À ïî âðåìåòî íà Ïúðâîòî Áúëãàðñêî Öàðñòâî, ñà áèëè èçñåëåíè áëèçî 300,000 Ñëàâÿíè. À òåçè îñòàíëè ïîä Áúëãàðñêà âëàñò ñå áèëè çàñåëåíè ïî ãðàíèöèòå íà èìïåðèÿòà.
À òåçè Áúëãàðè èçáèòè îò Áîðèñ, ñà áèëè ñàìî 48 ðîäà. Òîâà îçíà÷àâà ÷å öÿëîñòíî íå ñà áèëè ïîâå÷å îò åäíî 1000-2000 äóøè.
À çà åçèêà íà Ãúðöèÿ, äà ïðàâ ñè. Òîâà å áèëî Ðèìñêàòà èìïåðèÿ, è Ãúðöèÿ å áèëà ïðîñòî åäíà îò ïðîâèíöèèòå. Íî, àêî Ðèìëÿíèòå ñà ñè áèëè ñìåíèëè îôèöÿëíèÿò åçèê îð ëàòèíñêè íà ãðúöêè, äíåñ, Ãúðöèòå íÿìàøå äà èìàò ïðåòåíöèè êúì äðåâíèòå Ãúðöè.
Ñâåòà íè âúçïðèåìà êàòî ñëàâÿíè ïîðàäè ñêîðîøíè ïîëèòè÷åñêè èçÿâè, ïðåäèìíî ïî âðåìåòî íà êóìóíèçìà. Ïî âðåìåòî íà ïúðâàòà è âòîðàòà ñâåòîâíà âîéíà, ñâåòà íè å âúçïðåèìàë êàòî Áúëãàðè. Òîâà å çàùîòî äðåâíèòå Áúëãàðè ñà èìàëè äîñòà ïîä÷åíåíè Ãåðìàíñêè ïëåìåíà. Ãåðìàíèÿ å ïîêàçâàëà ÷å ñìå èìàëè áëèçîñò â ìèíàëîòî, ïî ñúùèÿò íà÷èí êàêòî Ðóñèÿ ñà èçêàëè äà ïîêàæàò ÷å ñìå áèëè ñëàâÿíñêè áðàòÿ.
È çà òîâà ÷å èìà òðè ðàçëè÷íè òåçè â òîçè ôîðóì.. êàðàé. Èíòåðåñíîòî å ÷å â Áúëãàðèÿ äî ñêîðî ñå èçòúêâàøå ñàìî Ñëàâÿíñêàòà, è äî ïî ìàëêà ñòåïåí Òðàêèéñêàòà. Ïðîáëåìèòå ñúñ Ñëàâÿíñêèòå òåîðèè ñà ÷å èìà ïðåêàëåíî ìíîãî óìèøëåíè ïðåêðèâàíèÿ è èçêðåâÿâàíèÿ íà ôàêòè.
Áåñàðàá, àêî èìàø âúçìîæíîñò, ïðî÷åòè êíèãàòà "12 Ìèòà â Áúëãàðñêàòà Èñòîðèÿ" íà Áîæèäàð Äèìèòðîâ. È äà ïðàâ ñè, çà ñúæàëåíèå íå æèâåÿ â Áúëãàðèÿ. Êàêòî è äà å, àç íå îòðè÷àì ÷å íèå ñìå ôîðìèðàíè îò Áúëãàðè è àñèìèëàöèÿòà íà äðóãè íàðîäè. Ïðîñòî êàçâàì ÷å Áúëãàðèòå íå ñà ñå ïðåòîïèëè â Ñëàâÿíèòå, àìè Ñëàâàíèòå ñà ñå ïðåòîïèëè â Áúëãàðèòå.
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Post by besarab on Jun 22, 2008 1:51:31 GMT -5
èìà íåùà ,êîèòî ñà âåðíè ,à çà äðóãè -íå ñè ïðàâ.ðóñèÿ ñå îïèòâàøå äà îìàëîâàæè çíà÷åíèåòî íà áúëãàðñêèÿ åëåìåíò, äà òâà å áåçñïîðíî.êîëêî å áèëà áðîéêàòà ìîæåì ñàìî äà ãàäàåì ñïîðåä ìåíå áúëãàðèòå ñà áèëè ïîâå÷å îò ñâîáîäíèòå ñëàâÿíè,âåðîÿòíî ïîâå÷å îò ìèëèîí ,çà äà èçãðàäÿò èìïåðèÿ îò áÿëî ìîðå äî êàðïàòèòå,äà ÿ àäìèíèñòðèðàò è äà ÿ çàäúðæàò çà ïîâå÷å îò 3 âåêà. íî... ñëàâÿíñòâîòî íå å ïðèóìèöà íà êîìóíèñòèòå îò 9 âåê íàñàì, ñëåä ïîëèòè÷åñêè áîðáè,ïðîäúëæèëè ïîâå÷å îò 2 âåêà áúëãàðñêèÿò íàðîä ñå ðàçâèâà êàòî õðèñòèÿíñêè è ñëàâÿíñêè.èçáîðúò íà åçèê å ñòàíàë ïîä âëèÿíèåòî íà ìíîãî ôàêòîðè,òîâà êîåòî ïèøå îôèöèàëíàòà èñòîðèÿ íå å âåðíî,èñòèíàòà å ìàëêî íåóäîáíà,àêî èñêàø ùå òè ÿ êàæà. äðóãîòî ìíîãî âàæíî íåùî å ,÷å íàøåòî âúçðàæäàíå ñúùî å ïðåìèíàëî ïîä çíàêà íà ñëàâÿíñêèÿ ðîìàíòèçúì.äîáðå ñå çíàå,÷å ïðåç òîçè ïåðèîä äîðè òåðìèíúò ñëàâÿíî-áîëãàðè ñå óïîòðåáÿâà ðåäîì ñ áîëãàðè.íå çíàì äàëè ðàçáèðàòå èëè íå,íî ñúâðåìåííîòî áúëãàðñêî íàöèîíàëíî ñúçíàíèå å ôîðìèðàíî òî÷íî ïðåç âúçðàæäàíåòî. òàêà.....ñïîðúò êîé êîãî å ïðåòîïèë å áåçñìèñëåí,íèå ñìå áúëãàðè ,÷àñò ñìå îò ñëàâÿíñòâîòî,íî òàÿ ïðèíàäëåæíîñò íÿìà íèêàêúâ äðóã ñìèñúë,îñâåí ëèíãâèñòè÷åí.ñëàâÿíñòâîòî íèêîãà íå å áèëî åäíà êóëòóðíà è èñòîðè÷åñêà îáøíîñò,íèòî ïúê ùå áúäå,êàêâèòî ñà ìåðàöèòå íà ðóñêèÿ èìïåðèàëèçúì.. îòíîñíî áîæî çíàì äîáðå âñè÷êî îò íåãî,ãîâîðèëè ñìå âåäíúæ è òîé å ìíîãî ïîëåçåí ÷îâåê,ìíîãî ðàáîòà âúðøè ,îñîáåíî â ìàêåäîíèÿ íî òàì íåùàòà ñà ìàëêî ïî äðóãè ðàäâàì ñå ÷å ïîíå òè ìå ÷åòåø, çàùîòî äðóãèòå äâàìà ñà êàòî ïåòëè ñ ïðîñêóáàíè ãúçîâå -ìîãàò äà ñè âèäÿò ñàìî øàðåíàòà ïåðóøèíà îòïðåä ,íî íå ãîëèÿ çàäíèê- --à òîâà ,êîåòî ìîãà äà âè êàæà àç-íå ìîæå íèêúäå äà ñå ïðî÷åòå ïîçäðàâ
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