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Post by serban on Oct 7, 2008 17:44:35 GMT -5
Bulgarian and Romanian have many interesting grammatical similarities. 1. The presence of schwa. In Bulgarian there are two schwas, one in stressed position and one in unstressed position. In Ro there is only one which is (almost?) identical to the unstressed Bg schwa. Very interesting is the fact that all (?) Bulgarian dialects of Macedonia lack stressed schwa (as far as I know most of them lack also the unstressed schwa). Instead of the stressed schwa those dialects have vocalic "a" or "o" and instead of the combinations r+schwa and schwa+r they have vocalic "r" Bulgarian like the Eastern Slavic languages (Polish, Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian) lack vocalic "r" whereas the western Czech, Slovak, Slovene, Serbo-Croatian and the Macedonian dialects of Bulgarian have it. 2. The formation of alternate possessive pronous from the indirect forms of the personal pronoun. These pronouns used to be outdated in Ro and until recently you could find them only in poetry but now it seems like their usage has been reactivated tvoyata kushta=kushtata ti=your house casa ta= a ta casă=casa-ţi=your house As you can see in both Ro and Bg the noun is articulated with the definite article in: "kushtata ti" and "casa-ţi" When used in front of the noun the possessive adjective is articulated both in Ro and Bg="tvoyata" and "a ta" instead of "tvoya" and "ta" Ro has a third possibility for expressing possession ("casa ta") which is by far the most frequent and corresponds to "kushtata tvoya" which if I'm not mistaken is also used in Bg poetry. Or is it "kushta tvoya"? 3. The reduction of unstressed o and a to u and schwa respectively (written u and ă in Ro) cuprindere from Latin comprehendere (obhvashtam; sydyrzham) duminica from Latin domenica (nedelya) cămară from Latin camera (kiler) masă-măsuţă (table-little table) facere-făcător (making-maker) This feature is also present in Portuguese. In both Bg and Portuguese this feature is alive for both "o" and "a" and it is not marked in writing. In Ro this feature is only present for "a" and the unstressed "a" pronounced "ă" (schwa) is written "ă", not "a". The turning of unstressed "o" into "u" is only present in words inherited from Latin and it no longer appears derived words. For instance foc-focuşor not *fucuşor (fire-little fire) 4. The ya/e shift in Bg and the ea/e shift in Ro mlyako-mlechen mryana-mreni=mreană-mrene (the Ro word comes from Bg) mreajă-mreje (net for catching fish from Bg mrezha) In the pronouncation of many Romanians the diphthong "ea" is pronounced like in Bg "ya". Do any Bulgarians pronounce the diphthong "ya" like "ea"? As far as I know this shift only occurs in Ro and Bg and is absent from the other Romance and Slavic languages. Interestingly in Russian the word for monument is pamyatnik whereas in Bg is pametnik. Is this feature also present in Russian? 5. The presence of the definite article which in both Ro and Bg is derived from the demonstrative pronoun and is placed after the noun being joined with it (enclytical or enclitical I can't remember how it's spelled in English) 6. Usually the genitive and dative cases are identical in Ro like in Bg (na+nominative case in Bg). The nominative and accusative cases are also usually identical in Ro like in Bg In correct Ro there are special endings for the dative-genitive forms of the nouns (for all genders of the nouns articulated with definite article and for the feminine singular unarticulated nouns) In colloquial Ro the dative and genitive cases are formed in a similar although not identical manner: casa LU' omu' ăsta=in correct Ro: casa omului ăstuia=kushtata NA tozi muzh dau LU' omu' ăsta=dau omului ăstuia=davam na tozi muzh Unlike in Bg where the preposition "na" is used before the nominative form of the noun in Ro it is the definite article in its genitive-dative form ("lu'" or "lui") that is used (it moves from the end of the noun to a noun-preceding position) In some regions of Ro instead of "dau lu' omu' ăsta" it is "dau LA omu'..." and even "casa la omu'..." instead of "casa lu'..." "La" is a preposition just like Bg "na" which means that in this case the situation between the Bg and Ro usage is identical There are many other similarities like the formation of the numbers from 11 to 19 On the other hand standard Bg and Macedonian dialects have some major grammatical differences like: the pronunciation: there are many words that sound identical in Mk and Serbian as opposed to their Bg counterparts. Some of those words have more than one sound difference from Bg nema in Mk and Srb-nyama in Bg (pronounced nyamy, the second "a" is pronounced like in the word ygyl-corner-I use the letter "y" for the schwa sound in analogy with its use for transcribing the Russian ы ) two differences: "e" instead of "ya" and the pronuciation of unstressed "a" crn in Mk and Srb-cheren in Bg three differences: "ts" instead of "ch", vocalic "r" instead of "er" and the ending lack of the second "e" in Mk and Srb words Other difference is that in Mk dialects there are no verbs ending in "yavam". The Mk counterparts of the Bg verbs ending in "-yavam" is the suffix "-uvam" which is also present in Bg I have two questions for you: in Mk dialects there seems to be no "-v-" infix of the verbs: Mk and Srb "treba" Bg "tryabva" Shopski "trebva". Is this true? Is there no "-v-" infix in Mk dialects? There seem to be no verbs ending in "-a" in Mk. "molam" instead of "molya" "blagodaram" instead of "blagodarya" Is this true? Are there no such verbs in Mk dialects? At the same time Bg and Russian have common features that are not present in any other Slavic language like the presence of the group "zhd": Bg and Ru mezhdu, Srb među (pron. medzhyu) Bg and Ru ubezhdenie Srb ubeđenje The keeping of "l" in some words: Bg slyntse Ru solntse Mk sontse Srb sunce Slovene sonce (like Mk)
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Post by diurpaneus on Oct 9, 2008 8:25:50 GMT -5
" The Balkan sprachbund or linguistic area is the ensemble of areal features—similarity in grammar, syntax, vocabulary and phonology—among languages of the Balkans, which belong to various branches of Indo-European, such as Slavic, Greek, Romance and Albanian. While they share little vocabulary, their grammars also have similarities; for example they have similar case systems and have all become more analytic, although to differing degrees." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund
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Post by Edlund on Oct 10, 2008 6:06:43 GMT -5
Hi, Serban, it's great you know so much about Bulgarian language. Unfortunately I don't know enough about Romanian. I'll answer your questions: Actually most of the original Macedonian dialects have stressed schwa, but don't have unstressed. The fabricated "Macedonian language" doesn't have a letter for stressed scwha intentionally - because it is typical Bulgarian sound, not found in other Slavic languages, and the purpose of the newly created Macedonian language was to be as distant from Bulgarian as possible. So a Macedonian writes "prvi" but he actually pronounces "pyrvi", while Serbs and Croats have vocalic "r" and pronounce it "prvi". The Slovenes also write "prvi" but pronounce it "pyrvi". Another interesting thing is the Macedonian word for "ass" - the official is "gaz", but colloquially they use "g'z". It's the same like the Bulgarian "gyz". Stressed schwa in official Macedonian and other western Bulgarian dialects comes mainly from vocalic R and from Turkish loanwords. In eastern Bulgarian dialects and official Bulgarian the old Bulgarian nasal O developed to schwa - pyt, ryka. In western Bulgarian dialects it developed to "u" and "a" - put, ruka; pat, raka. In Russian and Serbian/Croatian is "u", in Macedonian is "a", in Slovenian is "o". The unstressed schwa is typical for eastern Bulgarian dialects. In western Bulgaria it's rarely found. That's very interesting. I didn't know it's found in Romanian. This feature of Bulgarian is unique among the Slavic languages. It's found in Macedonian of course. The reduction of "o" and "a" is typical for eastern Bulgaria, where they also reduce the "e" to "i". For example they write "pile" (chicken) but pronounce it almost like "pili". There is a joke about this. A policemen stops a driver from Plovdiv and tells him "Gospodine, vie ste pili." The driver is insulted: "Az ne sym pili, az sym lyv" (lion) But in original western Bulgarian dialects those reductions are found rarely. In Bulgaria the border between western and eastern Bulgarian dialects is usually called "the yat border". So in western Bulgaria is mleko, nema, while in eastern is mlyako, nyama. Is there such difference in Romanian dialects? No. The yat sound in Croatia and Bosnia is pronounced differently according to some very complex rules, which I'm not able to understand yet. For example "vrijeme", but "vremena". The Russian "ya" in "pamyatnik" doesn't come from "yat", but from nasal E (also called "malka nosovka" in BG or "yus malyi" in RU - ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Þñ_ìàëûé). There was this nasal sound in old Bulgarian, which in modern Bulgarian became mostly "e", while in Russian - "ya". Example - BG pamet, RU pamyat; BG ime, RU imya; BG vreme, RU vremya. I think Macedonian "-uvam" corresponds to Bulgarian "-vam" - BG ograbvam, MK ograbuvam; BG otbelyazvam, MK odbelezhuvam; BG pogrebvam, MK pogrebuvam. No. In Aegean Macedonia it's mostly "-a" instead of "-am". In FYROM "-a" might be found around Debar. Check this - www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/st_2_b_maked.htm and look for "îêîí÷àíèå -à çà 1 ë. åä. ÷." "Zhd" in Bulgarian comes from soft "d". Grad - gradjanin -> grazhdanin (city -> citizen). In the same way Bulgarian "sht" comes from soft "t". Kyt - kytja -> kyshta. (nook -> house). In Russian "dj" developed to "zh". BG chuzhd, RU chuzhoy (foreign). In words like "mezhdu" and "grazhdanin" the Russian language was influenced by Bulgarian. Here we have vocalic (sonant) L, which developed differently in different places. This sound is found in modern Czech - vlk. In old Bulgarian it was "ly" - "slynce", "vlyk", "blygari". In official modern Bulgarian it is "yl" - "vylk", "bylgari". However in some occasions is used the other form - "slynce". In Macedonian and Russian is mostly "ol" - "volk". In Serbian and Croatian is "u" - "vuk", "sunce". In some Macedonian dialects it became "o" - "sonce", "bogari". For example the people in Resen called themselves "bogari" and also people from Aegean Macedonia.
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Post by serban on Oct 11, 2008 13:56:04 GMT -5
Thanks a lot Edlund. To answer your question: 'In Bulgaria the border between western and eastern Bulgarian dialects is usually called "the yat border". So in western Bulgaria is mleko, nema, while in eastern is mlyako, nyama. Is there such difference in Romanian dialects?' There is no such border in Romanian based on the ea/e shift. Romanians in western Romania don't have the 'ea' diphthong, they pronounce it 'ya' but the shift is also present in their speech, only it's not 'ea/e' but 'ya/e'. Please note that 'ea' is a diphthong and it is pronounced in a single syllable, 'e' being the semivowel. As I understand from you this diphthong is not present in Bulgarian. We also have other strange diphthongs like 'oa' and 'eo' and even a triphthong without any usual semivowels (y and w, written in Romanian i and u like their vocalic counterparts). This triphthong is 'eoa' and it is only to be found in very few words: "leoarca" means 'wet to the skin, very wet 'Check this - www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/st_2_b_maked.htm and look for "îêîí÷àíèå -à çà 1 ë. åä. ÷." ' Can you please write to me in Latin letters what to look for, my computer doesn't support the Cyrillic fonts used by this site. Hi, Serban, it's great you know so much about Bulgarian language. Unfortunately I don't know enough about Romanian. I'll answer your questions: Actually most of the original Macedonian dialects have stressed schwa, but don't have unstressed. The fabricated "Macedonian language" doesn't have a letter for stressed scwha intentionally - because it is typical Bulgarian sound, not found in other Slavic languages, and the purpose of the newly created Macedonian language was to be as distant from Bulgarian as possible. So a Macedonian writes "prvi" but he actually pronounces "pyrvi", while Serbs and Croats have vocalic "r" and pronounce it "prvi". The Slovenes also write "prvi" but pronounce it "pyrvi". Another interesting thing is the Macedonian word for "ass" - the official is "gaz", but colloquially they use "g'z". It's the same like the Bulgarian "gyz". Stressed schwa in official Macedonian and other western Bulgarian dialects comes mainly from vocalic R and from Turkish loanwords. In eastern Bulgarian dialects and official Bulgarian the old Bulgarian nasal O developed to schwa - pyt, ryka. In western Bulgarian dialects it developed to "u" and "a" - put, ruka; pat, raka. In Russian and Serbian/Croatian is "u", in Macedonian is "a", in Slovenian is "o". The unstressed schwa is typical for eastern Bulgarian dialects. In western Bulgaria it's rarely found. That's very interesting. I didn't know it's found in Romanian. This feature of Bulgarian is unique among the Slavic languages. It's found in Macedonian of course. The reduction of "o" and "a" is typical for eastern Bulgaria, where they also reduce the "e" to "i". For example they write "pile" (chicken) but pronounce it almost like "pili". There is a joke about this. A policemen stops a driver from Plovdiv and tells him "Gospodine, vie ste pili." The driver is insulted: "Az ne sym pili, az sym lyv" (lion) But in original western Bulgarian dialects those reductions are found rarely. In Bulgaria the border between western and eastern Bulgarian dialects is usually called "the yat border". So in western Bulgaria is mleko, nema, while in eastern is mlyako, nyama. Is there such difference in Romanian dialects? No. The yat sound in Croatia and Bosnia is pronounced differently according to some very complex rules, which I'm not able to understand yet. For example "vrijeme", but "vremena". The Russian "ya" in "pamyatnik" doesn't come from "yat", but from nasal E (also called "malka nosovka" in BG or "yus malyi" in RU - ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Þñ_ìàëûé). There was this nasal sound in old Bulgarian, which in modern Bulgarian became mostly "e", while in Russian - "ya". Example - BG pamet, RU pamyat; BG ime, RU imya; BG vreme, RU vremya. I think Macedonian "-uvam" corresponds to Bulgarian "-vam" - BG ograbvam, MK ograbuvam; BG otbelyazvam, MK odbelezhuvam; BG pogrebvam, MK pogrebuvam. No. In Aegean Macedonia it's mostly "-a" instead of "-am". In FYROM "-a" might be found around Debar. Check this - www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/st_2_b_maked.htm and look for "îêîí÷àíèå -à çà 1 ë. åä. ÷." "Zhd" in Bulgarian comes from soft "d". Grad - gradjanin -> grazhdanin (city -> citizen). In the same way Bulgarian "sht" comes from soft "t". Kyt - kytja -> kyshta. (nook -> house). In Russian "dj" developed to "zh". BG chuzhd, RU chuzhoy (foreign). In words like "mezhdu" and "grazhdanin" the Russian language was influenced by Bulgarian. Here we have vocalic (sonant) L, which developed differently in different places. This sound is found in modern Czech - vlk. In old Bulgarian it was "ly" - "slynce", "vlyk", "blygari". In official modern Bulgarian it is "yl" - "vylk", "bylgari". However in some occasions is used the other form - "slynce". In Macedonian and Russian is mostly "ol" - "volk". In Serbian and Croatian is "u" - "vuk", "sunce". In some Macedonian dialects it became "o" - "sonce", "bogari". For example the people in Resen called themselves "bogari" and also people from Aegean Macedonia.
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Post by Edlund on Oct 11, 2008 18:32:24 GMT -5
Look for "okonchanie -a za 1 l. ed." It means "ending -a for first person singular". In this book called "Bulgarian dialectology" you can find lots of information - www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/index.htmI forgot to answer one of your questions: I think both can be used in poetry, but in normal speech - no.
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Post by serban on Oct 14, 2008 6:14:38 GMT -5
Thanks again Edlund. I really appreciate your information. I want to ask you why you've chosen this nickname (Edlund). It's Swedish, isn't it? Lund means meadow or something, an element of nature. I don't know what ed means though. Do you like Swedish language? I love it, myself I understand much of a Swedish text although I can't speak Swedish almost at all and I understand almost nothing of what a Swede is saying. That's because Swedish has a melodic intonation. Once you know Swedish well you can understand a lot of Norwegian and Danish. Another topic: The name of the medieval ruler Dobrotitsa: this seems to be a Romanian name from Romanian name Dobrotã + the suffix '-iþã'. This is a diminutive suffix, fatã-girl, fetiþã-girls. The stress is always on the suffix. I don't know where the stress was on Dobrotitsa, I think it can be found out from its name written with Greek letters. As far as I know in Greek they used to place an accent on the stressed vowel. Do you know where the stress was in this name Edlund? Speaking of Dobrotã (stress on the first vowel), this word comes from the Bulgarian root dobyr + the suffix '-otã' which as far as I know is a purely Romanian suffix and it is not present in any other language, including Bulgarian. It could be of Cuman origin, I don't know. I have searched the internet with google for the words 'dobrotov' and 'dobrotev' written with Cyrillic letters. The word dobrotev does not exist and the word dobrotov exists in Bulgarian but not as a person's name, and it also exists in Russian where apparently it's the name of a village. We also have other names ending in this suffix like Dragotã from the Bulgarian root drag. (I forgot to tell you that this suffix is always unstressed) I did a again a search for dragotev and dragotov using Cyrillic letters and neither one of those words exists. There is also the name Laiotã of a medieval Romanian ruler but I don't know what its root means (lai). Are there any Bulgarian words (names or other types of words) ending in this suffix or having this suffix in composition like Ivanota or Ivanotov?
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Post by Edlund on Oct 14, 2008 14:57:56 GMT -5
Thanks again Edlund. I really appreciate your information. I want to ask you why you've chosen this nickname (Edlund). It's Swedish, isn't it? Lund means meadow or something, an element of nature. I don't know what ed means though. Do you like Swedish language? I love it, myself I understand much of a Swedish text although I can't speak Swedish almost at all and I understand almost nothing of what a Swede is saying. That's because Swedish has a melodic intonation. Once you know Swedish well you can understand a lot of Norwegian and Danish. It's just a nickname I chose many years ago when I started using IRC and had to chose a nickname The singer of a band I liked back then (and still today) is called Johan Edlund. So I just took his name I don't speak or understand Swedish, although I would like to I know German pretty good, but when I tried to read Danish I understood very little. I will write "c" for "þ". 1. The suffix -ica is Slavic by origin. It exists also in modern Greek. Do you understand Serbian? It's used as diminutive in modern Serbian more often then in modern Bulgarian. It is diminutive for feminine words. It's masculine equivalent is -ec in Bulgarian and -ac in Serbian. It developed from Old Bulgarian -yc, but the "y" here is this letter - ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ь_(кириллица)So we have "star" (="old") from which we have the words "starec" (="old man") and "starica" (="old woman"). Hubav (beautiful) -> hubavec/hubavica. In medieval Bulgaria -ica was also used for suffix in male names. For example one of the sons of Omurtag was called Zvinica. In modern Serbian -ica is sometimes used as diminutive suffix for male names, but not in modern Bulgarian. For example a Serbian called Petar could be also called Perica. It's widely used in both languages as suffix for female names - Rosica, Denica, Zornica in Bulgarian. They come from "rosa", "den", "zora". In Bulgarian the stress is not always on the suffix. I don't know where the stress was in Dobrotica, I'm not sure which sources mention him. But even if some Greek sources mentions this name, it's not for sure that the author knew the exact place of the stress. The suffix -ota is found in Bulgarian and Serbian/Croatian. Bulgarian examples: dobrota, krasota, chestota, gystota, pustota, grehota. The stress is always on the "a". Serbian examples: lepota, divota, grehota. The stress in Serbian is on the "o". In medieval times there were Bulgarian names ending on -ota. Another son of Omurtag was called Enravota. There was also a name Strahota. Why are you searching for words ending on "-ov" or "-ev"? I don't understand. The ending -ota in BG is used for creating nouns from adjectives. Example: dobyr (adjective, means 'good') -> dobrota (noun, means 'goodness'). pust (adjective, means "deserted, uninhabited) -> pustota (noun, means 'emptiness, desert') Today it's not used as suffix for names. About Laiota - there were Bulgarian names Laiko and Laicho. The author of a book about Bulgarian names thinks that they came from Vlaiko and Vlaicho. This explanation is not very plausible for me, but can't think of better one.
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Post by serban on Oct 14, 2008 15:56:46 GMT -5
You're right when you say that even if we know where Dobrotitsa was stressed in Greek texts, that doesn't mean that the Greek authors knew correctly the place of the stress. Although if different Greek authors from the time of Dobrotitsa placed the stress on the same syllable then it is a high probability that they were not wrong. They could have been influenced by the place of the stress in Greek words using the suffix "-ica", provided that this suffix was already used in Greek in Dobrotitsa's times. I know about the Bulgarian suffix in the words krasota, dobrota. However I don't think that it's the same suffix as in person's names. I searched for names in "-ov" and "-ev" because I wanted to see if Dobrotov exists as a last name in Bulgarian. Because if it exists then the first name Dobrota could have existed as well. In Hungarian the name Laszlo comes from Vladislav if I'm not mistaken. So the name Laiota could actually be Vlaiota.
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Post by serban on Oct 14, 2008 16:21:43 GMT -5
I forgot to answer your question about my understanding of Serbian. I don't understand Serbian, only very few words that sound like the Bulgarian words that I know and also the words borrowed from Latin like intervencija. I have been learning Bulgarian for some months now and I like it a lot. There are a few common words in Bg and Ro like luna, masa, karutsa (Ro: lunã, masã, cãruþã, Romanian words borrowed by Bulgarian), vina, rana (Ro: vinã, ranã, Bg words borrowed by Ro), common Turkish words like kef, rakiya (Ro: chef, rachiu), common Greek words like evtin (Ro: ieftin) and Latin words like komanda, spetsialen (Ro: comandã, special) and also one or two Thracian words like gotov (Ro: gata, a similar word is in Albanian)
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Oct 15, 2008 6:04:42 GMT -5
uou serban very interesting, i didnt know gotov was Thracian or that rana was originally Romanian. Very interesting
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Post by serban on Oct 15, 2008 7:09:21 GMT -5
Rana is Bulgarian. Read carefully, I said "rana" has been borrowed by Romanian from Bulgarian. "Gotov" is similar to Romanian "gata" and a similar word exists in Albanian. It has to be Thracian.
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Post by rusebg on Oct 15, 2008 9:47:00 GMT -5
I have the feeling that Serban is an old acquaintance of mine here in the forum, just wondering what nick he used before
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Post by serban on Oct 19, 2008 1:29:19 GMT -5
If Enravota existed as a Bulgarian name then Dobrota could have existed also as a Bulgarian name and Dobrotitsa could have been Bulgarian indeed. How come there are no Bulgarian people with last names Enravotov and Dobrotov? Had these names fallen out of use before the Bulgarian family names appeared? 6. There is also another similarity which is overlooked by many. Theoretically, according to Romanian grammar rules "ch" and "gh" followed by "e" or "i" ar pronounced almost like "ky" and "gy". This is called palatalization if I'm not mistaken. However it seems to me that Romanians no longer follow this rule. Pronouncing "kyef" instead of "kef" ("chef") or analogous pronunciations of other words is considered peasant-like and unpleasant to the ear. In Bulgarian this happens too as far as I know, not only for "k" and "g" but also when "h" is followed by "e" or "i". I am not sure though. Is this true? The existence of the adverb "dobre" different from the neuter adjective "dobro" is probably due to Romanian influence. As far as I know in all other south Slavic languages this adverb is identical to the neuter adjective. Only in the Romance languages "good" and "well" are two different but (probably?) etymologically related words: in Romanian "bun" (good) and "bine" well, in Italian "buono" and "bene", in French "bon" and "bien", in Spanish "bueno" and "bien", in Portuguese "bom" and "bem"
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Post by Edlund on Oct 19, 2008 12:21:17 GMT -5
If Enravota existed as a Bulgarian name then Dobrota could have existed also as a Bulgarian name and Dobrotitsa could have been Bulgarian indeed. How come there are no Bulgarian people with last names Enravotov and Dobrotov? Had these names fallen out of use before the Bulgarian family names appeared? Yes. Bulgarian family names appeared in 18-19 century. Many names have disappeared until then. The Ottoman tax registers contain the names of the taxpayers, so the names that existed in 15-19 century are known. "Enravota" is the form found in one Greek source. The real name is supposed to have been "Nravota". It's mentioned only once in 9th century. There were other names - Nravo, Nravko, which were probably shortened from Nravota. "Nrav" means "temperament", and "nravota" meant something like "morals". In modern Bulgarian the word is "nravtstvenost". I think no. What is the origin of the sounds "ch" and "gh" in Romanian? Are they found only in words of Latin origin? In Old Bulgarian the words for "good" and "well" were like in modern Bulgarian "dobro" and "dobre". I have uploaded here two good dictionaries of the Old Bulgarian language as is known from the manuscripts - Lexicon paleoslovenico-graeco-latinum by Franz von Miklosich and Slovnik jazyka staroslovenskeho / Lexicon linguae paleoslovenicae by the Czech academy of sciences.
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Post by serban on Oct 20, 2008 5:29:27 GMT -5
I meant to say that "dobre" is a Latin influence, not Romanian. As far as I know both in Serbian and Russian the word is "dobro". As far as I know this is the only Bulgarian adverb different from the corresponding adjective in neuter form. In Romanian the adverb "bine" is the only adverb different from the corresponding masculine form of the adjective. "Strahota" seems to be an old synonym for "strahotiya" and Enravota seems to be the Greek degenerated pronunciation of "nravota" as you already said, which is again a common word used as a male name. Probably in Greek there are no words beginning with "nr-". "Dobrota" fits the pattern but "Dobrotitsa" would mean "little goodness" which is a rather strange name for a man, especially if he is a state ruler. Were there other Bulgarian names in "-ota" besides Strahota ans Enravota? In Romanian there are diminutive names in "-iţă": Gheorghiţă (little George), Ioniţă (little John). The stress is on the last but one syllable (GheorghIţă, IonIţă) As I said before Laszlo comes from Vladislav, Latin version being Ladislaus. The name Dobrotitsa appears in 20-25 forms in the documents, many of the being something like DobroDitsa. This Romanian claims that the initial form of the word was Tobrotitzas, see here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dobruja#Despot_Dobro... "name used in contemporaneous sources: in byzantine ones (John Cantacuzenus' History i think) Τομπροτιτζας (yes, with a T... also some coins attributed to him bear a "T", supposed to be his initial. However, a hundred years latter Chalcocondilas calls Dobruja Δοβροτίκεω τοῦ Μυσοῦ χώρα), in genoese and venetian ones Dobroticie, Dobrodisse or Dobrodize. In savoyard documents he appears as Desbrodicze, and in hungarian ones (written in latin) as Dobratich. Probably we should stick to Dobrotici/Dobrotitsa (even if i think that all variants are attempts to render "Dobrotitsə" )" Please note that the Romanian guy forgot to place the accent on Τομπροτιτζας . In Greek the stressed syllable always has a graphic accent. If you search the net for Τομπροτιτζας you get only two relevant pages (both Greek). I don't know if the version Tobrotitzas ever existed in documents but I know that the version Tristris for Drystyr is mentioned in documents. Do you have any information on this? As for the DobroDitsa version: in my Ukrainian-Romanian dictionary I found this word: добродій = gentleman, добродійка = lady. So DobroDitsa would mean either little gentleman or lady if the word had existed in Bulgarian In my Russian-Romanian dictionary there are no words beginning with "dobrod-". I haven't searched the web yet. Another theory maybe the word was actually DobroDitsa and came from "brod" and the prefix "do". By the way in Ukrainian "well" is "dobre" but the neuter adjective is also "dobre"
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Post by serban on Oct 20, 2008 5:40:00 GMT -5
In Romanian "ch" and "gh" are used only before "e" and "i" and they are pronounced palatalized k and g (êü and ãü, meki syglasni). However almost all Romanians pronounce k and g, tvyrdi syglasni. In grammar books it says that they should be pronounced palatalized but such a pronunciation now sounds boor-like and is being avoided. This is from Petyr Pashov's Bylgarska Gramatika: "Vinagi samo meki pred "e" i "i" sa zadnoezichnite syglasni "g", "k" i "h"." It is the same as in Romanian, only Bulgarian has also palatal "h" which Romanian lacks. When I was in Bulgaria I saw one TV commercial and the name Germanos was pronounced gyermanus. The name belongs to a Romanian company and in Romanian it is pronounced Dzhermanos, stress on the second syllable. "Ce" and "ci" are pronounced "tshe" and "tshi" like in the words "chess" and "chicken". "Ge" and "gi" are pronounced "dzhe" and "dzhi" like in "Jerry" and "Jim". Two more things: are there any Bulgarian words ending in "-otitsa", like "krasotitsa"? If the word Dobrotitsa came from dobrotA then it would be pronounced dobrotItsa, the stress being on the last but one syllable, on the vowel "i", right? Or would it be pronounced dobrOtitsa?
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Post by rusebg on Oct 20, 2008 15:44:16 GMT -5
On the vowel 'i'...Criztu
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Post by Edlund on Oct 20, 2008 16:50:26 GMT -5
It's possible. I scanned the page from the dictionary which gives examples of the usage of these words in Old Bulgarian: There are many Latin influences in Old Bulgarian. There were also many occasions, in which foreign authors writing in Greek declare a word for Bulgarian, but it is in fact of Latin origin. I can tell you more about this if you want. I can think only of one another example - the adjective for "fast" - "byrzo". In older texts and in colloquial speech the adverb is "byrzhe". I checked in a book, which contains Bulgarian names used in the past, it's called "Bylgarski imennik". I checked only A and B and found the male names Bakota, Belota, Blagota, Bobota, Borota. If you want I can check names starting with other letters. I don't know about Tristris. As far as I know the letter "d" in medieval and modern Greek didn't correspond to Bulgarian "d". It represented a sound closer to English "th". However I'm not an expert on the subject. In modern Greek foreign words with "d" are written with "nt". There is Bulgarian word "dobrodetel". I think the Ukrainian word also comes from the verb for "deistvam" and is related to words like "deistvie", "deyanie", "delo". This seems very unprobable to me. I don't know why Petyr Pashov says that. In what context is it? I pronounce the "g" in "Germanos" and "garvan" in the same way. In eastern Bulgaria the consonant before "e" and "i" is soft, because the "e" and "i" is soft. So a person from eastern Bulgaria would pronounce soft "g", "k" and "h", but also "d", "t", "b", "p", "n", "m" and so on. Here is a commercial of Germanos - www.bgvip.tv/play.php?vid=45155 Do you hear a soft "g"? I don't, but I might be wrong. And also for me the "o" sounds like "o", not like "u".
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Post by serban on Oct 23, 2008 2:21:15 GMT -5
It's possible. I scanned the page from the dictionary which gives examples of the usage of these words in Old Bulgarian: There are many Latin influences in Old Bulgarian. There were also many occasions, in which foreign authors writing in Greek declare a word for Bulgarian, but it is in fact of Latin origin. I can tell you more about this if you want. I can think only of one another example - the adjective for "fast" - "byrzo". In older texts and in colloquial speech the adverb is "byrzhe";. So there is also "byrzhe" alongside "dobre". That makes my theory "dobre" has "-e" due to Latin influence very unlikely. It must me a Bulgarian inovation then. I checked in a book, which contains Bulgarian names used in the past, it's called "Bylgarski imennik". I checked only A and B and found the male names Bakota, Belota, Blagota, Bobota, Borota. If you want I can check names starting with other letters. Yes, I would appreciate if you searched through the whole book. Maybe you will even find the name "Dobrota". So far you have only found names ending in "-ota" but no name in "-otitsa". Of course all the names ending in "-ota" could theoretically have had diminutives in "-otitsa" but so far you have found none. Or were you looking only for names in "-ota" but not for names in "-otitsa" as well? "Blagota" seems to come from "blag" and "Belota" from "byal". I don't know about Tristris. As far as I know the letter "d" in medieval and modern Greek didn't correspond to Bulgarian "d". It represented a sound closer to English "th". However I'm not an expert on the subject. In modern Greek foreign words with "d" are written with "nt". Tristris appears for sure in documents. I have seen it written in some book but I can't remember where. I don't know about Tobrotitzas though. Yes in modern Greek "d" sounds like English "th" in "there", "that" and the sound "d" is spelled "nt". I don't know about medieval Greek. If I remember correctly DobroDitsa appears only in non-Greek authors. So my theory is if the Greek word Tristris is wrong since the name was Drystyr, then DobroTitsa could also be wrong and the right name could be DobroDitsa. There is Bulgarian word "dobrodetel". I think the Ukrainian word also comes from the verb for "deistvam" and is related to words like "deistvie", "deyanie", "delo" It is possible that äîáðîä³é comes from a word related to deystvuvam (Ukr: ä³ÿòè ) although the stress is on the second syllable, on "o". äîáðîä³éíèê means benefactor, philantropist but has the stres on the third syllable. äîáðîáóò ("good life")=prosperity has the stress on "o" (the second syllable) just like äîáðîä³é Is there a Russian synonym like dobrobyt with the stress on the same syllable? In my Russian-Romanian dictionary there is only byt (life, living) but no dobrobyt I don't know why Petyr Pashov says that. In what context is it? I pronounce the "g" in "Germanos" and "garvan" in the same way. In eastern Bulgaria the consonant before "e" and "i" is soft, because the "e" and "i" is soft. So a person from eastern Bulgaria would pronounce soft "g", "k" and "h", but also "d", "t", "b", "p", "n", "m" and so on. Here is a commercial of Germanos - www.bgvip.tv/play.php?vid=45155 Do you hear a soft "g"? I don't, but I might be wrong. And also for me the "o" sounds like "o", not like "u". [/quote] This is a more complete quotation: Vinagi samo meki pred "e" i "i" sa zadnoeznichite syglasni "g", "k" i "h". V tova otnoshenie obache pravogovorni greshki ne se dopuskat, tyy kato nas**te uchlenitelni navitsi ne ni pozvolyavat da izgovorim vyobshte tvyrdi "g", "k", "h" pred "e" i "i" v dumata. Bylgarskite meki syglasni imat fonologichna stoynost, kakto veche beshe otbelyazano, samo v pozitsiya pred "a", "y", "o" i "u". Tova znachi, che samo v takava pozitsiya mozhe da se otlichi tvurdata ot mekata syglasna vyv vsyaka dvoyka syglasni. The sound doesn't work on my computer so I can't hear the commercial. It must have been a different commercial as I clearly remember that the word Germanos was pronounced gyermanus, stressed on the first syllable.
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Post by c0gnate on Oct 23, 2008 13:34:38 GMT -5
Serban, these remarks are based on Serbo-Croatian, though I expect they also hold for Bulgarian:
dobar, dobra, dobro -- good -- in Romanian bun, buna (there is no longer a separate neuter form)
dobro --well-- in Rom. bine
The use of the neuter form of the adjective to also signify the adverb is quite widespread in Serbo-Croatian. In fact it's the rule.
As for dobrota, it corresponds to the Romanian bunatate (goodness). Dobrotitsa sounds like a diminutive: little goodness.
Isn't blyzhe the comparative of blyzy, i.e., nearER? There is no dobre in Serbo-Croatian, the comparative of dobro being bolje. How do you say "better" in Bulgarian?
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