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Post by Edlund on Oct 23, 2008 14:39:52 GMT -5
Yes, I would appreciate if you searched through the whole book. Maybe you will even find the name "Dobrota". So far you have only found names ending in "-ota" but no name in "-otitsa". Of course all the names ending in "-ota" could theoretically have had diminutives in "-otitsa" but so far you have found none. Or were you looking only for names in "-ota" but not for names in "-otitsa" as well? "Blagota" seems to come from "blag" and "Belota" from "byal". The whole book is too big - 300 pages. A form "Dobrota" is not mentioned. "Dobrotica" is mentioned and the author says it comes from "Dobrota". I checked the names starting with "d" and found male names Debrota (comes from "debri" - woods), Devota (comes from "deva" - virgin), Divota (comes from "divota" - beauty), Dragota (from "drag" - dear), I found male names ending on -ica - Delica, Dobrica, Draganica - with the stress on "i". I can't find this word in Russian dictionaries, but it exists in Serbian/Croatian - rjecnik.net/search.php?search=dobrobitIt's "dobrobit", because the verb "to be" is "biti". I don't think the stress is important. The stress in Bulgarian is flexible and can move from place to place. I'm almost sure the pronunciation was the same, although it could have been a different commercial. It's possible that the "g" is really soft, but a Bulgarian wouldn't know it, because he knows only this variant. Can you give me a link to a Romanian commercial of Germanos? Or to give me sound examples of hard Romanian che/ghe and soft che/ghe?
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Post by Edlund on Oct 23, 2008 14:47:29 GMT -5
Serban, these remarks are based on Serbo-Croatian, though I expect they also hold for Bulgarian: dobar, dobra, dobro -- good -- in Romanian bun, buna (there is no longer a separate neuter form) dobro --well-- in Rom. bine The use of the neuter form of the adjective to also signify the adverb is quite widespread in Serbo-Croatian. In fact it's the rule. Yes, Serban already said that. He has noticed that in all Slavic languages the form of the adverb is the same as the neuter form of the adjective. The exception is Bulgarian "dobro" - neuter form of the adjective and "dobre" - the adverb form. The other example I can think of is Bulgarian adverb "byrzhe" - link. It is not a comparative form of "byrzo", as is the case in Serbian. It is used as a synonym of "byrzo". good = dobre better = po-dobre best = nai-dobre fast = byrzo faster = po-byrzo fastest = nai-byrzo
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Post by serban on Oct 23, 2008 17:23:32 GMT -5
I can't find this word in Russian dictionaries, but it exists in Serbian/Croatian - rjecnik.net/search.php?search=dobrobitIt's "dobrobit", because the verb "to be" is "biti". I don't think the stress is important. The stress in Bulgarian is flexible and can move from place to place. All the Ukrainian words in my dictionary composed with "dobro-" have the stress after the second syllable, on the third one at least, except добродій(ка) and добробут which have the stress on the second syllable (on "o"). I think there must be a misprint. Shouldn't добробут have the stress on the last syllable since it is made up by two other words and the stress should be on the stressed syllable of the last word? The same about добродій if it is indeed a compound word as it seems to be. You say starozagOrtsi since zagortsi is stressed zagOrtsi and not starOzagortsi. The first "o" in starozagortsi is there to link the words star and zagortsi and I can't understand how it could ever be stressed. But then again I only a beginner in Bulgarian and maybe it is just me who doesn't have enough knowledge about the way compound words are stressed in Bulgarian or other Slavic languages. I'm almost sure the pronunciation was the same, although it could have been a different commercial. It's possible that the "g" is really soft, but a Bulgarian wouldn't know it, because he knows only this variant. Can you give me a link to a Romanian commercial of Germanos? Or to give me sound examples of hard Romanian che/ghe and soft che/ghe? Che, chi, ghe, ghi are always pronounced soft кье, кьи, гье, гьи This according to the grammar books but all Romanians pronounce them hard ке, ки, ге, ги. C and g before a, o, u, ă and â and before consonants are always pronounced hard like in English car, cry.
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Post by kroraina on Nov 1, 2008 11:43:00 GMT -5
So there is also "byrzhe" alongside "dobre". That makes my theory "dobre" has "-e" due to Latin influence very unlikely. It must me a Bulgarian inovation then. There is also the Polish dobrze (well, nice, etc.), from dobry (good). I have noticed how they use it (pronounced like 'dobzhe') in a samy way as the Bulgarians use dobre. As 'OK', 'alright'. It is different in Russian (they say khorosho). Don't know how it is in the other slavic l-s. About these soft g's, k's in Romanian - a couple of years ago a Romanian wrote about this in one linguistic forum, comparing it to the treatment of the old Slavic -tj-, -dj- in modern (Yugo)Macedonian dialects (they currently have these soft -k-, -g-). Unfortunately, I cannot trace his posts right now. Serban, I would suggest you find the font ('Arial Unicode MS', a standard font for Win XP I think) used in www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/Because the book ot Stojkov there describes in great detail the Bg dialects. I cannot vouch it is true, but I think Stojkov there claimed that there is no syllabic r in the Macedonian ("Macedonian Bulgarian" or "Macedonian Slavic" if you want) dialects, but that there was such r in some dialects from Western Bulgaria. Similarly, the vowel reduction (o->u, a->schwa, e->i) was not restricted to Eastern Bulgaria alone. I think there were also some instances of vowel reduction in the southern Macedonian (MBulg/MSlavic) dialects, from present Greece.
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Post by c0gnate on Nov 1, 2008 11:54:45 GMT -5
I can't find this word in Russian dictionaries, but it exists in Serbian/Croatian - rjecnik.net/search.php?search=dobrobitIt's "dobrobit", because the verb "to be" is "biti". I don't think the stress is important. The stress in Bulgarian is flexible and can move from place to place. All the Ukrainian words in my dictionary composed with "dobro-" have the stress after the second syllable, on the third one at least, except добродій(ка) and добробут which have the stress on the second syllable (on "o"). I think there must be a misprint. Shouldn't добробут have the stress on the last syllable since it is made up by two other words and the stress should be on the stressed syllable of the last word? One of the differences between southern Slavic (I believe Bulgarian also fits in) versus the northern/eastern (Russian, etc) or northern/western (Polish, etc) is the location of the stress --even for words that are practically identical. In the southern Slavic tongues it tends to fall on the first or second syllable, while for the others it is on the last or nearest to last. Does anyone have a good explanation for this difference? By comparison in Romance languages the stress is the same or very similar. Some say the "unusual" southern Slavic stress is a remnant of the pre-Slavic tongues here.
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Post by kroraina on Nov 1, 2008 13:53:22 GMT -5
About these soft g's, k's in Romanian - a couple of years ago a Romanian wrote about this in one linguistic forum, comparing it to the treatment of the old Slavic -tj-, -dj- in modern (Yugo)Macedonian dialects (they currently have these soft -k-, -g-). Unfortunately, I cannot trace his posts right now. Located: tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/24549The person, George Stana (?), under the nickname 'tolgs001': --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, g <george.st@...> wrote: > >What we observe is SCr. kuc'a "house", Bulg. k&s^ta "house" I missed this last time. A curious coincidence: in Romanian, the subdialectal-colloquial plural of <casa> "house" is <cãSi> [k&S'], instead of <case> and <casã>(yes, this is a plural, too, even if it is a clone of the singular-without-definite- article . >(from gashti "trousers" as opposed to the now literary gak'i). Chiefly in Transylvania and Banat (probably under Hungarian influence), <gaci> (only as a plural) [gatS] also means "trousers," esp. large ones. The Hungarian word is <gatya> [gOk^O] plur. <gatyák> [gOk^a:k]. In (Northern?) India, there is a similar word for that (but I don't remember the word, neither in *which* language). So, <gashti> is a closer form to the Romanian esp. in the pronunciation in central-eastern Transylvania (Gherla- Bistritza-Nasaud) and the Banate (S-W Romania), where [tch] > , i.e. [gaS]. While [gak'i] looks closer to the Hungarian pronunciation of <gatya>.
>Vassil
George
--- End forwarded message ---
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Vassil Karloukovski" <v.karloukovski@...> wrote:
--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Miguel Carrasquer <mcv@w...> wrote: ... > What we observe is SCr. kuc'a "house", Bulg. k&s^ta "house" > (Macedonian [West-Bulgarian, if you prefer] kak'a, kok'a, kuk'a, > k&nk'a).
the k', g' (kuk'a, svek'a) in literary Macedonian, based on the central dialects of Prilep, are generally regarded as late Serbian influence. For example, the toponymy even around Prilep still preserves the old forms - Krivogashtani (from gashti "trousers" as opposed to the now literary gak'i).
The Serbo-Croatian word, if inherited, can conceivably > go back to *ku(k)tja or *ko~(k)tja. The Bulgarian word, if > inherited, can go back to *ko~(k)tja or *kU(k)tja. The only > common form is *ko~(k)tja, which also happens to be the only > one that can explain the Macedonian forms (assuming k&nk'a > exists in the Kostur area, I'm not sure)
it is k&shcha in Southern Macedonia (Kostur/Kastoria). And the form, attested since the Xth c. is k&shta "tent", as it is in modern Bulgarian.
Regards, Vassil
, and on top of that, > also the forms in other Slavic languages. > > I can see no reason at all why one shouldn't accept the > common prototype *kontja, unless for purposes of special > pleading (and even then, it will be pleading in vain). > > > ======================= > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal > mcv@w...
--- End forwarded message ---
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Post by kroraina on Nov 1, 2008 14:04:49 GMT -5
One of the differences between southern Slavic (I believe Bulgarian also fits in) versus the northern/eastern (Russian, etc) or northern/western (Polish, etc) is the location of the stress --even for words that are practically identical. In the southern Slavic tongues it tends to fall on the first or second syllable, while for the others it is on the last or nearest to last. Does anyone have a good explanation for this difference? By comparison in Romance languages the stress is the same or very similar. Some say the "unusual" southern Slavic stress is a remnant of the pre-Slavic tongues here. there is no agreed theory about the history of the accent in Slavic ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages ). Some of the theories, like that of the Dutch Frederik Kortlandt ( www.kortlandt.nl/bibliography.html ) are so complicated and mind-boggling that even Slavisists/Indo-Europeanists cannot make sense out of them.
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Post by serban on Nov 1, 2008 15:11:41 GMT -5
Similarly, the vowel reduction (o->u, a->schwa, e->i) was not restricted to Eastern Bulgaria alone. I think there were also some instances of vowel reduction in the southern Macedonian (MBulg/MSlavic) dialects, from present Greece. I believe I read somewhere that in standard FYROMians there is the reduction of e to i and it is even a rule unlike in standard Bulgarian. I am reading Stojkov's book right now and it seems that all the features of official FYROMians are present in other non-Macedonian Bulgarian dialects like kyustendilski and botevgradski govori.
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Post by stambolov2025 on Nov 3, 2008 10:10:41 GMT -5
I thought the difference between mlyako i mleko was between the village people and city people, not eastern and western Bulgaria.
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Post by stambolov2025 on Nov 3, 2008 10:22:05 GMT -5
Sounds like we have a bunch of philologists here, but in all honesty this is an interesting topic, too bad i don't know enough.
Anyone have any ideas how as an immigrant I can keep my Bulgarian, because it is getting hard to hold on to the grammar and vocabulary.
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Post by rusebg on Nov 3, 2008 17:53:11 GMT -5
And who is the one to help you except yourself?
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Post by stambolov2025 on Nov 4, 2008 4:39:34 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't clear I was asking for advice, tips maybe, not sarcasm. I am aware that only personal actions can do it, so I am asking is there anything specifically that I can do. But thanks for that, very helpful.
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Post by kroraina on Nov 4, 2008 7:51:32 GMT -5
I am reading Stojkov's book right now and it seems that all the features of official FYROMians are present in other non-Macedonian Bulgarian dialects like kyustendilski and botevgradski govori. there is probably one distinctive feature in _literary_ Macedonian - the so called "òðåòîñëîæíî àêöåíòèðàœå" (tretoslozhno akcentiranje). The other "unique" features of Macedonia are indeed present in a number of Bulgarian dialects (i.e. Slavic dialects from the territory of RoB). I have written about this in a Macedonian forum - forum.kajgana.com/showpost.php?p=1132242&postcount=51P.S. I was wrong about the syllabic r. Stojkov does say it is present in some dialects from RoM - Tetovo, etc.
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Post by c0gnate on Nov 4, 2008 13:06:31 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't clear I was asking for advice, tips maybe, not sarcasm. I am aware that only personal actions can do it, so I am asking is there anything specifically that I can do. If you marry a Bulgarian, your mother in law will make sure you don't forget the old ways. Запознанства за българите в чужбина: www.zdravei.eu/
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Post by stambolov2025 on Nov 4, 2008 14:26:36 GMT -5
Haha I liked that, nice cognate.
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Post by serban on Nov 5, 2008 0:15:01 GMT -5
there is probably one distinctive feature in _literary_ Macedonian - the so called "òðåòîñëîæíî àêöåíòèðàœå" (tretoslozhno akcentiranje). What is this tretoslozhno aktsentiranye? Btw I don't know why FYROMians when writing their "language" with Latin letters use the Serbian rules: c for ts, š or s (if they don't use diacritics) for sh, ž or z for zh etc. Why don't they write like Bulgarians: with sh, ch, zh (using the English transcription)? Is fixed stress present in dialects for Bulgaria (Shop or Pirin maybe)? From what I have read there doesn't seem to exist fixed stressed in Pirin dialects and neither in Shop dialects. I think there is a high probability that fixed stressed exists in Torlak dialects. I think Torlak dialects are Bulgarian. The presence of definite article and the lack of most of the case endings is a stronger argument than the presence of other features that exist in standard Serbian but not in other Bulgarian dialects/standard Bulgarian.
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Post by c0gnate on Nov 5, 2008 7:48:33 GMT -5
Btw I don't know why FYROMians when writing their "language" with Latin letters use the Serbian rules: c for ts, š or s (if they don't use diacritics) for sh, ž or z for zh etc. Why don't they write like Bulgarians: with sh, ch, zh (using the English transcription)? Because there wouldn't be a Macedonia without Yugoslavia. When the Ottomans were defeated in 1912 and almost thrown out of Europe, there was another Balkan war the following year to divide the spoils. A large part was taken over by Serbia, and its Slavic speakers were proclaimed Southern Serbs. Twenty eight years later, in WWII, Bulgaria tried to reassert control of Macedonia, but lost. Afterward Tito proclaimed Macedonians a southern Slavic people --distinct from Bulgarians-- and encouraged a new alphabet, new last names, and a new language. So to this day Macedonians tend to see the West through a Yugoslav window.
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Post by Edlund on Nov 6, 2008 10:30:30 GMT -5
Btw I don't know why FYROMians when writing their "language" with Latin letters use the Serbian rules: c for ts, š or s (if they don't use diacritics) for sh, ž or z for zh etc. Why don't they write like Bulgarians: with sh, ch, zh (using the English transcription)? Because there wouldn't be a Macedonia without Yugoslavia. When the Ottomans were defeated in 1912 and almost thrown out of Europe, there was another Balkan war the following year to divide the spoils. A large part was taken over by Serbia, and its Slavic speakers were proclaimed Southern Serbs. Twenty eight years later, in WWII, Bulgaria tried to reassert control of Macedonia, but lost. Afterward Tito proclaimed Macedonians a southern Slavic people --distinct from Bulgarians-- and encouraged a new alphabet, new last names, and a new language. So to this day Macedonians tend to see the West through a Yugoslav window. I agree. When Macedonians use Latin letters they do it like Serbs, Croats and Bosnians, because they are still very connected with them. They still have nostalgia fot the Yugoslavia of Tito, they still feel that the other "Yugoslavs" are closely related to them etc.
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Post by kroraina on Nov 8, 2008 8:35:29 GMT -5
What is this tretoslozhno aktsentiranye? it means that in words with three or more syllables, the stress falls on the third syllable from the end. Below is an excerpt from this .doc file. But I have seen people, native to (the territory of) RoM but living outside of it, claiming that this is a new feature of the Yugoslavian period of the language. ('New' in the sense of being ubiquotus, widely-spread now). I cannot comment of this or on your other questions re the stress in in the Pirin, Shop, Torlak regions. *************** Ïðàâèëàòà çà ìåñòîòî íà àêöåíòîò íà ñàìîñòî¼íèòå çáîðîâè âî ëèòåðàòóðíèîò ¼àçèê ñå ïðîñòè: 1. Ê༠äâîñëîæíèòå çáîðîâè àêöåíòîò ïàƒà íà âòîðèîò ñëîã, áðîå¼è îä äåñíî êîí ëåâî. Íà ïðèìåð: äé-òå, ìáj-êa, òáò-êî èòí. 2. Ê༠òðè- è ïîâååñëîæíèòå çáîðîâè àêöåíòîò ïàƒà íà òðåòèîò ñëîã, áðîå¼è èñòî îä äåñíî êîí ëåâî. Íà ïðèìåð: òáò-êî-òî, òáò-êîâ-öè, òàò-êóâ-öè-òå, ìà-êé-äî-íåö èòí. Îòñòàïóâàœà îä òðåòîñëîæíîòî àêöåíòèðàœå 1. Âî ãëàãîëñêèîò ïðèëîã: âèêá¼è, îäé¼è èòí. 2. Âî òóƒèòå çáîðîâè: êëèøé, ãåíéçà, ëèòåðàòýðà èòí.
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Post by kroraina on Nov 15, 2008 13:45:44 GMT -5
Another topic: The name of the medieval ruler Dobrotitsa: this seems to be a Romanian name from Romanian name Dobrotã + the suffix '-iþã'. This is a diminutive suffix, fatã-girl, fetiþã-girls. The stress is always on the suffix. I don't know where the stress was on Dobrotitsa, I think it can be found out from its name written with Greek letters. As far as I know in Greek they used to place an accent on the stressed vowel. Do you know where the stress was in this name Edlund? Speaking of Dobrotã (stress on the first vowel), this word comes from the Bulgarian root dobyr + the suffix '-otã' which as far as I know is a purely Romanian suffix and it is not present in any other language, including Bulgarian. a return to an old post, already explained by Edlund, but these days I put on-line another batch of medieval Vlachian gramoty (official documents of rulers of Wallachia (and Moldavia)) - www.kroraina.com/knigi/lm_da/and even there you can find a number of Slavic names ending in -ota. For example, one gramota of 'Mircha voevoda' from AD 1409 lists the following witnesses: Radul ban, zhupan Dragota, Stanchul Barbulov sin, Radul Stanulow sin, Sherban vistiar, Jarkyn namestnik. Boste i Chr'ni i zhupan Belota. ************* . . .
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