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Post by serban on Nov 20, 2008 15:24:46 GMT -5
The Romanian placenames are usually of Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian, Ukrainian or Russian origin. Few are the toponyms of Romanian or other origins: In Wallachia (Muntenia which includes Muntenia proper-Greater Wallachia- and Oltenia-Lesser Wallachia) and in Dobruja there are many names of Bulgarian origin: names of districts: IAlomiţa (=Yalovitsa), PrAhova (=Prahovo), DÂmboviţa (Dybovitsa), VÂlcea (=Vylcho?, from vylk, â and î are pronounced almost like the Russian ы), Ilfov (=Elhovo). names of old districts: VlAşca (=Vlashko, Vlahiya), RomanAţi (=Romanets, from the male name Roman, the only place name where the Bulgarian ending "-ets" has turned into "aţi" pronounced аць with short "i", meka syglasna, otherwise "-ets" has become either "-eţ" or "-ăţ") names of district capitals: TârgOvişte (=Tyrgovishte, like the Bulgarian town), Craiova (=Kralevo? strangely it seems to come rather from Serbian Kraljevo and the "lj" has turned into "i" as is common in Romanian: Kraljevo, then Craievo, then Craiovo then CraIOva with changed stress), RÂmnicu(-Vâlcea) (=Ribnik -fish lake?). place name with indirect Bulgarian etymology, actually Romanian common words with Bulgarian origin: SlobozIa (from slobod=svoboden, again it seems to come from Serbian rather than from Bulgarian), SlAtina partially Bulgarian place names: TÂrgu(-Jiu) (=tyrg), MehedInţi (the last i is short i like Russian ь) (=Mehedintsi, people from MehAdia, place name with unknown etymology), Dolj (=Dolni Jiu), Gorj (=Gorni Jiu) Bulgarian y always becomes â/î in Romanian (both â and î are pronounced almost like Russian ы). ă is pronounced like unstressed schwa in Bulgarian: the second y in ygyl. ş is pronounced sh and ţ is pronounced ts. Ce, ci, ge, gi are pronounced tshe (che), tshi (chi), dzhe (je), dzhi (ji). Che, chi, ghe, ghi are pronounced ke, ki, ge, gi. Among the Bulgarian origin words in Romanian Dobruja are CernavOdă (=Cherna Voda).
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Post by Kefalus on Nov 20, 2008 17:38:40 GMT -5
R u sure?
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yeni
Moderator
gulash freak
Posts: 327
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Post by yeni on Nov 20, 2008 18:32:06 GMT -5
The Mehed part of the name is probably Hungarian, méh means bee in Hungarian and the -(a/e/o)d suffix is very common in Hun place names. The county's coat of arms also contains a bee.
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Nov 20, 2008 20:11:29 GMT -5
The Romanian placenames are usually of Bulgarian, Hungarian, Serbian, Ukrainian or Russian origin. Few are the toponyms of Romanian or other origins: No sh*t... Let's say some of the most important cities in S Romania: Bucuresti, Pitesti, Ploiesti, Calarasi, Fetesti, Campulung, Curtea de Arges, Urziceni, Turnu (Magurele), Alexandria, Campina, Giurgiu, Rosiori de Vede, Valenii de Munte, Faurei, Busteni etc Now tell me in what languages are those placenames. Then we have clear slavic placenames like Craiova although 'crai' is also a word in romanian meaning king is still is a slavonic placename because of the suffix. Ramnicu Sarat means 'the salt pond' in Romanian. 'Slobozia' is also a Romanian placename from slobod "free" Slobozia meaning "free of taxes". Slatina "place with slat or with salt waters" 'Targ' is a Romanian word meaning market and is of course to be found in many places in Romania including Targoviste "place of trade", "market". Also the "-ati" suffix in "Romanati" is very Romanian. So we are left only with Craiova and Cernavoda and we can add Snagov as clear slavic placenames. That's not too little to make idiotic remarks like 'there are few toponyms in Romania of Romanian origin or "toponyms are usually Bulgarian"? Or more than idiotic remarks like about Russian placenames in Romania when we never had an ethnic border with Russians. Even in the North Romanians stretched in the past much over the actual border of Romania while over the Dniester lived mostly Romanians and Tatars well into the XVIII century when Russia anexed the lands from the Ottomans.
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Post by rusebg on Nov 21, 2008 3:36:13 GMT -5
Well, Crai has three meanings in Bulgarian. One means 'end', the other means area or district and the third meaning is alongside. Which one do you choose?
Bulgarian word.
Bulgarian word.
I have one question: what does Predeal means in Romanian? Zlatna, Bogata?
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Post by serban on Nov 21, 2008 3:58:37 GMT -5
Craiova comes from Kraljevo although it isn't nowhere near the Serbia border. It could have been named in a Bulgarian dialect. Now that I think of it it can also come from kray, not kralj/kral. I was referring to both direct and indirect Bulgarian origin. So yes slobozia is a Romanian word and slobod is also a Romanian but has Bulgarian etymology. These are words with indirect Bulgarian origin. Ilfov or Prahova on the other hand mean nothing in Romania. They have a direct Bulgarian origin. But apparently the Romanian guy is not capable of understanding some thing. Romanaþi is again a Serbian word (strangely enough) and its Bulgarian version is Romanets. This is the only placename in Wallachia where the Bulgarian suffix "-ets" appears in its Serbian version. The name comes from Roman, probably a ruler of the region. Otherwise the suffix is either "-eþ" or "-ãþ"
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Post by serban on Nov 21, 2008 4:02:52 GMT -5
The Mehed part of the name is probably Hungarian, méh means bee in Hungarian and the -(a/e/o)d suffix is very common in Hun place names. The county's coat of arms also contains a bee. The names is the plural of Mehedinets, inhabitant of Mehadia. Yes I know about the Hungarian origin hypothesis and is very plausible but not certain. Other hypothesis is that is comes from the Latin Ad Mediam with unexplained "-h-" insertion. What exactly does the suffix -(a/e/o)d mean? One more question: the word Labalon is a geographical name. It sounds very Hungarian to me. Is is Hungarian and if so what does it mean (if it means anything)?
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Nov 21, 2008 5:31:01 GMT -5
Well, Crai has three meanings in Bulgarian. One means 'end', the other means area or district and the third meaning is alongside. Which one do you choose? Bulgarian word. Bulgarian word. I have one question: what does Predeal means in Romanian? Zlatna, Bogata? Don't make me laugh. Bulgarian words... So maybe you have them too, who cares we're not talking about you. Romanians named those places with Romanian words who in those cases are words of slavonic origins. That's all. Bulgarians have nothing to do with it. Actually Predeal sound very Romanian "deal" is hill p"re" is a variant of "pe" and means on. Bogata means Rich, zlatna means 'the gold mine' zlatari were Gypsies that were goldsmiths. As for Romanati, what about Afumati? Slavic too?
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Post by diurpaneus on Nov 21, 2008 5:43:36 GMT -5
Place names are irrelevant if they are from after the formation of the Romanian people. As we all know, the romanian language absorbed slavic words, turkish words, greek words etc. Let's say a village is founded in the year 1800 with the name "Rogoz" (a word of slavic origins which is the romanian word for this plant). Now, 200 years later, a genius comes, gathers all kinds of village/city names that are of slavic origins and jumps to the conclusion that those places were originally inhabited by slavs. I have two words for you, serban: YOU FAILED. Now let's all listen to this song that makes my heart pound faster (don't know why )
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yeni
Moderator
gulash freak
Posts: 327
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Post by yeni on Nov 21, 2008 8:15:50 GMT -5
What exactly does the suffix -(a/e/o)d mean? One more question: the word Labalon is a geographical name. It sounds very Hungarian to me. Is is Hungarian and if so what does it mean (if it means anything)? The "-d" was originally a diminutive suffix then it was used for creation of personal names (like árpa (barley)-Árpád) and place names. Labalon name doesn’t sound familiar to me where is it located?
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Post by rusebg on Nov 21, 2008 8:40:55 GMT -5
And where are the sources that they were originally inhabited by Romanians? Btw, why is it such a problem for you that such places have Bulgarian names?
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Nov 21, 2008 9:22:20 GMT -5
And where are the sources that they were originally inhabited by Romanians? Btw, why is it such a problem for you that such places have Bulgarian names? There is no problem, Bulgarian placenames are Cernavoda, Snagov and probably other I don't remember now. But most of the Romanian placenames that sound familiar to you are so because those names are deriving from Romanian words that also exists in Bulgarian usually words of slavonic origin. I'm sorry to dissapoint you but that doesn't make those places Bulgarian.
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Post by diurpaneus on Nov 21, 2008 9:45:49 GMT -5
And where are the sources that they were originally inhabited by Romanians? You didn`t understand. There are places with slavic names today, that have always been Romanian. Plus, a slavonic word that entered the romanians language in the 8th century, and becomes the name of a settlement hundreds of years later doesn`t prove anything about the "slavic" blood the the inhabitants. Plus, there are A LOT of place names of daco-roman origins that pseudo-intellectuals like serban seem to forget by some miracle: some bigger places: Cluj, Alba, Sibiu, Timis, Oradea, Mures, Oas, Abrud, Campeni, Brad, Bucium, Lupsa, Calarasi, Avrig etc. etc.
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Post by rusebg on Nov 21, 2008 18:16:12 GMT -5
Always? May I know how you measure time? Obviously it is some unit used by yourself only.
Sure. It was probably just a Bulgarian territory but with no Bulgarians living there, despite the centuries of domination. Only Vlahs. Is this what you are trying to tell me? Get real please.
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Post by diurpaneus on Nov 22, 2008 3:22:05 GMT -5
Ruse, your mind if dazed by nationalism. Go out, relax, have a pepsi, smoke a cigarette, go to a whore and have a good time with her, then come back and discuss this calmly, without any emotional bullshit.
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Post by Catcher in the Rye on Nov 22, 2008 7:26:53 GMT -5
There are no towns in Walachia older than the founding of the Wallachian state. The oldest atested is Campulung (Long Field in Romanian) in 1300. Of course we know of Walachian duchies atested in 1247 who were for sure much older than that because even the Tatars had to fight with the Walachian armies in 1241. Those duchies must have had some cities. Fact is because of the nomad invasions, especially the devastating Tatar one, no settelments from that period exists. You say centuries of Bulgarian dominations but we cannot find a singe wall or stone from that period let alone buildings, and you expect to find Bulgarian cities?
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Post by vlaici on Nov 22, 2008 8:26:56 GMT -5
There are for sure a lot of place names with Slavic origin in Romania. I have to learn the meaning of them at school. We shouldn't be scared of this nor of new Bulgarian empire from Aegean See to Tisa river! We should find the truth because "knowledge is power"! I suppose that over the old period of formation of the Romanian people when dwelling the same space with Slavs for a while, a new layer of Slavic words is due to the "fashion" imposed by the chancelleries of our voievods (slavic) or domni (latin) and by the church. So, it was fashionable for Neacsu to write in his letter Daglopole instead of the existing name of Campulung. It was not the case of the other "fashions" (greek, french, english) that cought us late, with the language allready formed! I dare say, our vocabulary is impacted by the old Slavic as much as English by old French.
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Post by rusebg on Nov 23, 2008 10:24:00 GMT -5
I am not. It is you who claims bollocks and denies the obvious.
I don't like Pepsi, Coca-Cola is better. Thanks for your concern anyway.
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Post by serban on Nov 25, 2008 19:04:31 GMT -5
What exactly does the suffix -(a/e/o)d mean? One more question: the word Labalon is a geographical name. It sounds very Hungarian to me. Is is Hungarian and if so what does it mean (if it means anything)? The "-d" was originally a diminutive suffix then it was used for creation of personal names (like árpa (barley)-Árpád) and place names. Labalon name doesn’t sound familiar to me where is it located? Labalon is the name of a natural viaduct (don't know the word for it in English) near the unofficial border of the regions Banat and Oltenia. It is currently located in Oltenia but in the past it was in Banat (if I'm not mistaken). Banat used to be one of the regions of Hungary in the past. I have searched the internet for this word on Hungarian language sites but there were no matches. It seems it's no Hungarian word. It just sounds so, at least to be it sounds very Hungarian.
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Post by serban on Nov 25, 2008 19:17:05 GMT -5
Nobody said that if these toponyms are of Bulgarian origin, they have been founded by Slavs. The Slavic toponyms in Muntenia, Oltenia and Dobruja are Bulgarian. They come from the so-called Old Church Slavonic which was an artificial language based on the Bulgarian dialects near Thessaloniki. In southern Romania (Muntenia, Oltenia and Dobruja) these Old Church Slavonic are influenced by the eastearn Bulgarian dialects. That's why we have words with î and â which represent the Romanian adaptation of Bulgarian schwa. Words like Dâmboviþa, Târgoviºte and Vâlcea come from the old eastern Bulgarian dialects: Dybovitsa, Tyrgovishte and Vylcho. The "m" in Dâmboviþa is due to the fact that when the Romanians took the name from eastern Bulgarian dialects, the nasal vowel were still present in those dialects. In Banat however the names are Serbian. That's why we have toponyms like Dubova (=Dubovo) in Banat and Dâmboviþa (=Dybovitsa). As for the Bulgarian/Cyrillic alphabet being strongly influenced by the Greek alphabet, so was the Latin alphabet. The Latin alphabet is based on the Greek.
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