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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Aug 26, 2009 10:39:56 GMT -5
Alternative origin theories
A specific DNA mutation which emerged about 2,000 years ago on a rare haplotype is characteristic of the Pomaks. Its frequency increased as a consequence of high genetic drift within this population. This indicates that the Pomaks are an isolated population with limited contacts with their neighbours. The DNA tree line of Pomaks suggests the hypothesis that Pomaks are descendants of ancient Thracian tribes.
According some historians some of the Pomaks in the Rhodope Mountains are successors of the Cumans that converted to Islam in the end of the 11th or the beginning of the 12th century after establishing contact with missionaries from North Africa and the Middle East. This theory is further backed by the fact that in the 9th century many Muslims moved from Bulgaria to Hungary and were ordered expelled by Pope Nicholas I in 866, yet enjoyed many freedoms and were even allowed to serve in the military and in border guard units during the 11th and 12th century. Many researchers are of the opinion that these were Cumans or Pechenegs.
Another view, especially popular among the Pomaks themselves is that they are descendants of Thraco-Slavs or pre-Islamic Arab migrants to the Balkans who were converted to Islam by Arab missionaries. This theory is supported by comments of 9th century Christian missionaries in the area about occasional distribution of religious literature by some Islamic missionaries There are also reports of Muslims migrating from medieval Bulgaria to Hungary, and there is evidence of Arab raids into the peninsula from the 7th century on.[36
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Aug 26, 2009 10:40:39 GMT -5
So what do you Bulgarians have to say about these theories that Pomaks are something other than Bulgarians?
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Post by thracian08 on Aug 26, 2009 14:14:09 GMT -5
They're definetly not Arabs. They do not resemble them.
Yes, they could be Turkish descendents as well.
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Post by rusebg on Aug 26, 2009 15:36:36 GMT -5
Yeah...Cumans, the steppe people on horses somehow settled in the mountaneous area of the Rhodopes...who are those 'historians' who claim that pile of bollocks?
I don't know what sort of back up is this for the simple reason I am absolutely certain there was no such thing as Muslim movement from Bulgaria to hungary in the 9th century. Btw, during which period of the 9th century and which part of Hungary exactly? Because it was at the end of the 9th century when Magyars were forced by Bulgars and Pechenegs to move to their nowadays lands.
Finally, to put it short. Pomaks are forcefully muslimized Bulgarians. As simple as that.
Yes, Thracian, they can also be Navaho who sailed several oceans and seas until finally crossing the Maritsa river and settling in the Rhodopes.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Aug 26, 2009 15:59:39 GMT -5
Pomaks =Turkofils = turk speakers /turk lovers
they are/were all over the Balkans ...even in greece
we use to have em also ,but I'm Glad ....they have come back to their original mother tongue
also in some areas calling someone a Pomak is very derogatory and might get your lights punched out .
its not a nationality or in the blood ...its a lifestyle ;D
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Post by srbobran on Aug 26, 2009 16:08:29 GMT -5
Pomaks are to them what Bosniaks are to us. End of story.
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Post by thracian08 on Aug 26, 2009 18:44:20 GMT -5
why could their origin not be Cumans? After all, all Turks were nomadic people.
I disagree about forcefully converting to Islam, ask any Pomak and you'll see they willingly converted to Islam.
The Ottomans did not forcefully convert anyone, on the contrary. Out of all the nations the Ottomans conquered, only Bosnians & Albanians became Muslim.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Aug 26, 2009 19:53:28 GMT -5
No sh!t they will deny it to their very core. It has to be denied otherwise it destroys their identity. Far out I really come so close to hating Muslims sometimes. It's a struggle not to when I see the utter BS coming from Bosniaks, Pomaks and Goranis. Look at this guy claiming that Goranis are Thracians, the Balkans are Muslim and Christians should get out. www.youtube.com/user/goranec87The Thracians exists and I show you by my video and I prove it that the goranci pomaks torbesi are the thracians and that we are alive. Honestly I wish that Islam could be removed from the Balkans. If it never came the place would be infinately better. I seriously can't handle them.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 27, 2009 1:32:43 GMT -5
I disagree about forcefully converting to Islam, ask any Pomak and you'll see they willingly converted to Islam. This is the most stupid thing I ve read. Of course when you ask a Pomak NOW he ll probably say he was not forcefully islamized. That is if islam is important for himself. But he did not witness the conversion which happened 3-4 centuries ago. So the Pomak can not tell you anything because he didnt live through the conversion. Apart from that, I believe Pomaks are Bulgarians that got islamized. They do not differ from the other Bulgarians. The problem is that some of them do not identify with the Bulgarians, but with the Turks. There are some notable exeptions like Boyan Saruev: bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%8F%D0%BD_%D0%A1%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8A%D0%B5%D0%B2
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 27, 2009 4:59:18 GMT -5
As well as most of the today Bulgarians, Pomaks are descendants of the local Thracians. That's very close to common sence.
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Post by rusebg on Aug 27, 2009 5:54:15 GMT -5
You are Turk. Both by origin and mentality. How do you know about Bulgarians?
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Aug 27, 2009 7:50:00 GMT -5
You are Turk. Both by origin and mentality. How do you know about Bulgarians? So, you are not a Turk? I thought that the steppe Bolgars were the Turks. ;D
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 27, 2009 8:20:40 GMT -5
Its far from proven they were Turkic, which by the way is not equal with Turkish.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 27, 2009 13:21:29 GMT -5
If all turks had my mentality and my origin, they should be far far more european than you (who seem to be a real turkmen). Turkic is any of various people, who speak one of the Turkic languages. They are connected to the nomadic people stretching from Mongolia to the Black Sea.. Today Turkic people live mostly in Turkey, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, and Turkmenistan. What more do we need to say?! Steppe Bulgars spoke turkic language (their calendar, titles etc. is an excellent proof). Bulgars believed in Tangri, had same customs like the other turkics. But some ppl are really ashamed to admit that. Of course, steppe Bulgars can not be same as today Turkish ppl, just because Turkish citizen are also mixture av turkics + other ethnicities. But.. nevertheless, proto-bulgars were turkic!
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Post by thracian08 on Aug 27, 2009 14:41:09 GMT -5
Ioan, that is the propoganda Bulgarians use against Pomaks to not like them, and belittle them. I'm sure Pomaks would know better than you
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 27, 2009 23:54:54 GMT -5
If all turks had my mentality and my origin, they should be far far more european than you (who seem to be a real turkmen). Turkic is any of various people, who speak one of the Turkic languages. They are connected to the nomadic people stretching from Mongolia to the Black Sea.. Today Turkic people live mostly in Turkey, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, and Turkmenistan. What more do we need to say?! Steppe Bulgars spoke turkic language (their calendar, titles etc. is an excellent proof). Bulgars believed in Tangri, had same customs like the other turkics. But some ppl are really ashamed to admit that. Of course, steppe Bulgars can not be same as today Turkish ppl, just because Turkish citizen are also mixture av turkics + other ethnicities. But.. nevertheless, proto-bulgars were turkic! I am sure you find great pleasure in this TEORY, because you are totally and madly in love with everything Turkish.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Aug 28, 2009 7:53:39 GMT -5
This os not a THEORY, this is the reality. I am explaining how turkic and Turkish are connected to one another. So that's why, Bulgar's origin is undobtedly turkic. Concerning the Pomaks, they are of local Thracian descent. So Ioan and Ruse, stop being embarassed and confused. You can't keep hiding it forever! Bulgars were turkic.
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Post by rusebg on Aug 28, 2009 8:40:16 GMT -5
True. You love Turkey more than I love CSKA. Yours is an obssession.
Connected in the minds of Turkish nationalists. Are you a Turkish nationalists? Nothing shamefull in that, just admit it.
Of course. Just like Turks, right? ;D
You are only confused person here. After all, neither Ioan, nor me is considering himself as a son of a Thracan river god.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Aug 28, 2009 9:06:49 GMT -5
Concerning the Pomaks, they are of local Thracian descent. So, judging from this particular sentance, you accept the Pomaks are the real Thracians. Let me ask you couple of questions: 1. If the Pomaks are the Thracians, then the other Bulgarians are not correct? Or some Bulgarians descend from the Thracians, others do not? 2. If some are Thracian descedants, how exacly do you destinguish between two Bulgarians: who is of Thracian descend and who isnt? 3. Why the Pomaks are undoubtedly Thracian? Is there anything else that distinguished them from the other Bulgarians exept their faith? 4. Why the islamic faith: a newcomer in the area, the last religion too come to the Bolkans is a charecteristic of local, Thracian culture?
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Aug 28, 2009 9:09:30 GMT -5
So Ioan and Ruse, stop being embarassed and confused. You can't keep hiding forever the real origin of bulgars. Rhezus, Please see how the Hungarians see themselves and the Bolgars. They do not have such "Danube Bulgarian" delusions on history. It may have been the Avars who dislodged the Hungarians from their original home in Bashkiria beyond the Volga, who then, keeping ahead of the Avars, reached the Carpathian Basin and placed the region under their rule permanently. This much can be taken for granted, that the group of Hungarians that Árpád's people sprang from had spent a long period of time around the middle of the first millennium A.D. some distance on this side of the Volga along the middle reaches of the Don, above the Sea of Azov. Here they stumbled upon an entirely new environment. They already knew how to till land with a plow in Magna Hungaria, but in the new place, named Levedia after one of the Hungarian chiefs, the Hungarians, who were still largely nomadic breeders of animals, encountered agriculturists using a more advanced, heavier plow with iron fittings, a rich horticulture and livestock, buildings and fortified towns indicating permanent residence among the Sarmatian Alans and the Onogurs and Volga Bulgarians belonging to the Turkish ethnic group living here. The Hungarians themselves acquired much from their agriculture and way of life.www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/lazar/zar03.htm
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