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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 9, 2007 3:31:28 GMT -5
no Jan,if u look at those hindu statues that are painted,they look Indian.They look racially ambiguous unpainted.
Persians PAINTED people looking like Mongols.
Look at Roman statues,they have European faces.Caesar,Julian statues look European.Look at some Hittite statues in Turkey and have Middle Eastern faces.
Seljuk statues are Mongol looking because they are of the same race!
Plus,dont tell me about Hindu statues,I've seen lots of them in restaurants and temples here.Theyre no Mongol looking
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 9, 2007 7:38:51 GMT -5
Hindu Art definitely embodies the Asiatic features even you like to reject. In a sense, if we follow your mentality, then we must conclude that the Persians are also Mongols.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 9, 2007 10:31:29 GMT -5
Wow, no offense to to the Cerkez, but thats one of the ugliest languages I have ever heard. So Im guessing Sulejman Cerkezi was once a member of that community? Good ol' secular-fascist me is glad to hear that his not of Alb blood... ;D Which Sulejman Çerkezi ? The head of the so called 'Justice Party' in Kosova? In that case, I agree he is an annoying person. But there's an explanation. The Circassian community in Kosova were renown for their deep religiosity. Their exodus from Circassia 1864 was naturally followed by a great contempt of these people for Christians, especially Orthodox Slavs who were the main reason for their departure from Circassia, and consequently they got quite religious as well. In the Balkans, they were among other things used as auxiliary troops in Bulgaria. In Kosova, there are only 600 souls left in the villages of Lower Stanovc and Milloshevë. Anyone surnamed Çerkezi most probably has some amount of Circassian blood. The surname is also found elsewhere, such as in Romania or among South Slavs in the form of Cerkezovic.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 9, 2007 14:27:27 GMT -5
From what I have read, they were positioned in parts of Kosova strategically, often in the rear of Albanian positions, so that they would attack Albanians when they revolted and hold them until Ottoman forces could arrive... considering, I think they should have been expelled from Kosova. They seem to have never been properly integrated into the dominant Albanian element, they always kept their own "clique".
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 9, 2007 18:13:07 GMT -5
From what I have read, they were positioned in parts of Kosova strategically, often in the rear of Albanian positions, so that they would attack Albanians when they revolted and hold them until Ottoman forces could arrive... considering, I think they should have been expelled from Kosova. They seem to have never been properly integrated into the dominant Albanian element, they always kept their own "clique". Well, as far as I know, there's not much mentioning them in books related to Kosova's history about supressing Albanian revolts. Though it would have been logical; Kosova was a hotspot, and the settling of a Circassian community there cannot have been accidental -- rather it was very well thought of. As for the rest, this is what I know; some 150,000-200,000 Circassians settled the Balkans after their exodus from Caucasus. Of these, some 2,000 Circassian families (according to the Circassians' own beliefs) settled in 30 settlements or 'villages' -- all in Eastern Kosova. Living conditions were poor, and they actually staged a rebellion against the Hugh Porte but were subdued by Ottoman forces. Most of them specialized in working metals and horsebreeding. In 1876, 1912 & 1918, amny Circassians left Kosova as a result of Serb operations and moved to Asia Minor, Syria or some other Muslim country. By 1931, there were only fitfy families left. And there were indeed some integration troubles. The Albanians and Serbs weren't too fond of the Circassian ways, especially eating horses & 'selling children' (the more plausible version is that the old nobility took with them their slaves to their new homes; during the 19th century, the Ottomans were trying to eradicate slavery, and so, many owners claimed that when they sold their slaves' children, they were actually selling their own kids, so as to make everything more 'acceptable'). But some have integrated, like Sulejman Çerkezi.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 9, 2007 22:55:34 GMT -5
Mis-administration, corruption and relative ignorance of culture and ways was something very prevalent among the Ottoman administrators during this late period; especially ones in non-Orthodox and impoverished areas such as Kosova. They probably fell victim to this, as did the native Albs and Serbs of the region. Im betting that they were often swindled by local administrators which in turn lead to their exasperation. The governors probably also put them in a difficult position since they were now supposed to be "thankful" to their adopter.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 10, 2007 6:05:20 GMT -5
Mis-administration, corruption and relative ignorance of culture and ways was something very prevalent among the Ottoman administrators during this late period; especially ones in non-Orthodox and impoverished areas such as Kosova. They probably fell victim to this, as did the native Albs and Serbs of the region. Im betting that they were often swindled by local administrators which in turn lead to their exasperation. The governors probably also put them in a difficult position since they were now supposed to be "thankful" to their adopter. That is my guess too. The Circassians were given tax exemptions, but their accommodation in Kosova was nevertheless a difficult matter -- it was difficult enough for the locals.
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 10, 2007 8:35:30 GMT -5
I'm thinking some of these Circassians who you guys are talking about who suppressed revolts in the Balkans are the Bashibozuks(Crazy Heads).
And Jan,what is Asiatic?? The Northeast Asians?(Japanese,Chinese,Mongols?)
That statue is from the Mohenjodaro times.
Also,it has a beard,which the slanted-eyed types rarely have.Not quite "Asia-tic"
Whatever it is,Persians painted people looking like Mongols.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Nov 10, 2007 10:09:34 GMT -5
cherkez sounds wierd.. bergh
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 10, 2007 10:45:34 GMT -5
Bashibouzouks were a military unit, not an ethnic designation. A suitable English term for them would perhaps be 'cannon fodder'. They were a mish-mash of ethnicities. Some Circassians were probably included within their ranks.
It's a Turkish word, not a self designation. The Circassian word for their own people is Adyghe.
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Post by diurpaneus on Nov 10, 2007 13:10:22 GMT -5
Here is a nice drawing made by a romanian guy. A cuman warrior: That bra-like armor makes me laugh ;D
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 10, 2007 15:45:31 GMT -5
Btw, by "non-orthodox" I meant non-traditional areas where ethnic laws and ways dominated over religious ways.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Nov 10, 2007 18:44:09 GMT -5
I meant the way they talk. Not the actual word cherkez lol
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Post by diurpaneus on Nov 11, 2007 3:02:57 GMT -5
I meant the way they talk. Not the actual word cherkez lol Being turkish, do you understand any word out of it?
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Post by superman on Nov 11, 2007 4:15:09 GMT -5
Look a cuman It's Janny? LOL
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 11, 2007 4:50:03 GMT -5
barbarian
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 12, 2007 3:04:26 GMT -5
The Barbarian Cuman Statue does not look like the Chinese whilst the Persian and Hindu ones resemble the Mongols or Chinese.
Your race theories (in this occasion) based upon some observation of statues, do really suck, Hellboy. ;D
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 12, 2007 9:35:18 GMT -5
so do yours
that statues looks like animal+human=freak
yah
that best sums it up!
who do you think built those Turkic statues? Cumans had nothing to do with stealing Persian ways.The Seljuks did.And the Seljuks potrayed themselves like Mongols cuz thats how they look like
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Post by depletedreasons on Nov 12, 2007 9:45:57 GMT -5
You are a very jealous person, Hellboy. The Cumanians were originally Asian pastoral nomads who in the 13th century migrated to Hungary. We have examined mitochondrial DNA from members of the earliest Cumanian population in Hungary from two archeologically well-documented excavations and from 74 modern Hungarians from different rural locations in Hungary. Haplogroups were defined based on HVS I sequences and examinations of haplogroup-associated polymorphic sites of the protein coding region and of HVS II. To exclude contamination, some ancient DNA samples were cloned. A database was created from previously published mtDNA HVS I sequences (representing 2,615 individuals from different Asian and European populations) and 74 modem Hungarian sequences from the present study. This database was used to determine the relationships between the ancient Cumanians, modern Hungarians, and Eurasian populations and to estimate the genetic distances between these populations. We attempted to deduce the genetic trace of the migration of Cumanians. This study is the first ancient DNA characterization of an eastern pastoral nomad population that migrated into Europe. The results indicate that, while still possessing a Central Asian steppe culture, the Cumanians received a large admixture of maternal genes from more westerly populations before arriving in Hungary. A similar dilution of genetic, but not cultural, factors may have accompanied the settlement of other Asian nomads in Europe.www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16596944&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsumIn simplified words, it can not be concluded that the Cumans were the Mongols even though it can be said that they might have assimilated some Mongol people (on top of many others) due to their nomadic life stretching from Central Europe to China.
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Post by benettonsenetme on Nov 12, 2007 15:40:11 GMT -5
Being turkish, do you understand any word out of it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not a single word of it.
First time I'm hearing it and it resembles Hebrew or a mixture of Russian and Persian.
Edit: LOL. It almost sounds the same as Hebrew.
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