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Post by yahadj on Dec 23, 2007 2:02:50 GMT -5
Napoleon an admirer of Islam?"I hope the time isn't far off when I shall be able to establish a regime based on the principles of Qur'an," said Bonaparte. 21 / 11 / 2007 16:01 The French leader, who died in May 1821, was a general during the French Revolution, the ruler of France as First Consul of the French Republic, Emperor of the French, King of Italy, Mediator of the Swiss Confederation and Protector of the Confederation of the Rhine. His campaigns are studied at military academies all over the world and he is widely regarded as one of history's greatest commanders. Regardless of whether he was a fair leader or not, one of the most impressive aspects regarding Napoléon Bonaparte was his admiration of Islam. Bonaparte first learnt about Islam in 1789, when he proposed a military expedition to seize Egypt -- then a province of the Ottoman Empire -- in order to protect French trade interests and undermine Britain's access to India. It has been reported that while in Egypt, Bonaparte took part in several religious ceremonies and held meetings with Muslim clerics. Many quotes suggest that Bonaparte was a serious admirer of Islam: "Moses has revealed the existence of God to his nation. Jesus Christ to the Roman world, Muhammad (PBUH) to the old continent,” "I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness,” Napoléon Bonaparte as quoted in Christian Cherfils, ‘Bonaparte et Islam,’ Pedone Ed., Paris, France, 1914, pp. 105, 125. Many historians discussed Bonaparte’s admiration of Islam, while others debated whether he converted to Islam or not. ‘Satanic Voices - Ancient and Modern’ by David M. Pidcock stated that the then official French Newspaper, Le Moniteur, carried the accounts of Bonaparte’s conversion to Islam in 1798 C.E. The newspaper even mentioned his new Muslim name, which was ‘Aly (Ali) Napoléon Bonaparte’. It has also been reported that Bonaparte commended the conversion of his General Jacques Menou, whose Muslim name was ‘Abdullah-Jacques Menou’, who later married an Egyptian, Sitti Zoubeida - who was descended from the line of Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him). Even if such claims are untrue, it’s clear that Napoleon Bonaparte admired the Islamic (Shari'ah) Law and attempted to apply it in his Empire. It’s interesting that a great leader like Bonaparte admired Islam and its laws, which are much better than the secular laws applied in many countries today. In fact, some aspects of the Shariah law still exist in the French constitution as the basis for some of their laws taken from the Code Napoléon. A well-known case like the fatal car accident of Diana, Princess of Wales, and Dodi al-Fayed can best illustrate this. "The photographers were charged with an old part of the French Jurisprudence, for ‘not helping at the scene of an accident’- which is taken from the Shari'ah Law of Imam Malik." (David M. Pidcock, 1998 C.E.) Source: www.newstime7.com/haber/20071121/Napoleon-an-admirer-of-Islam.php
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Post by diurpaneus on Dec 23, 2007 4:59:14 GMT -5
Napoleon an admirer of Islam? No.
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Post by jerryspringer on Dec 23, 2007 10:57:14 GMT -5
I find it very difficult to believe that Bonaparte admired the Shari'ah law when he was a product of the French Revolution. He made many mistakes, including the reintroducing of slavery in the French colonies, but I don't think he went this far. Or he probabaly didn't have the whole picture.
That's not to say that there aren't good things about Islam that we can learn from. There are. I, for one, think that Islam has a good view on animals and have clear directions on their rights: something Christianity missed. Still, there are muslims (like Jenny the Tatar) who show apathy in this subject.
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Post by yahadj on Dec 23, 2007 12:02:04 GMT -5
SELECTIONS FROM THE EXPLANATIONS MADE BY CELEBRITIES WHO WERE FORMERLY NON-MUSLIMS AND WHOSE ADMIRATION FOR ISLAM EVENTUALLY LED THEM TO BELIEVING IN Allahu TA'ALA
The following chapter contains a few paraphrased selections from the statements made by some of the many non-Muslim celebrities who believed in Allahu ta'ala and admired Islam; these statements reflect their views of Islam. So many are the people who share the same opinions that we have had to pick out only the famous ones. Among our selections are great commanders, statesmen and scientists whom you all know very well. Now let us read with attention to what they said:
NAPOLEON (BONAPARTE): Napoleon I (1769-1821 [1237 A.H.]), who went into history as a military genius and statesman, when he entered Egypt in 1212 [C.E. 1798], admired Islam's greatness and genuineness, and even considered whether he should become a Muslim. The following excerpt was paraphrased from Cherfils's book (Bonapart et Islam):
"Napoleon said:
The existence and unity of Allahu ta'ala, which Musa 'alaihis-salam', had announced to his own people and Isa 'alaihis-salam' to his own ummat, was announced by Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' to the entire world. Arabia had become totally a country of idolaters. Six centuries after Isa 'alaihis-salam', Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' initiated the Arabs into an awareness of Allahu ta'ala, whose existence prophets previous to him, such as Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail, Musa (Moses) and Isa (Jesus) alaihim-us-salam', had announced. Peace in the east had been disturbed by the Arians, [i.e. Christians who followed Arius], who had somehow developed a degree of friendship with the Arabs, and by heretics, who had defiled the true religion of Isa 'alaihis-salam' and were striving to spread in the name of religion a totally unintelligible credo which is based on trinity, i.e. God, Son of God, and the Holy Ghost. Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' guided the Arabs to the right way, taught them that Allahu ta'ala is one, that He does not have a father or a son, and that worshiping several gods is an absurd custom which is the continuation of idolatry."
At another place in his book he quotes Napoleon as having said, "I hope that in the near future I will have the chance to gather together the wise and cultured people of the world and establish a government that I will operate [in accordance with the principles written in Qur'an al-karim.]"
Prof. (THOMAS) CARLYLE: Thomas Carlyle of Scotland (1210 [C.E. 1795]-1298 [C.E. 1881]), one of the greatest men of knowledge known world over, entered the university when he was only fourteen years old, studied jurisprudence, literature and history, learned German and oriental languages, exchanged letters with, and even visited, the well-known German writer (Johann Wolf-gang von) Goethe (1749-1832), was awarded by the King of Prussia with the medal of honor called 'powr le merite', and was elected president by the University of Edinburgh. Among Carlyle's works are Sartur Resartus, The French Revolution, On Heroes, Hero Worship And the Heroic in History, Past and Present, Latter-Day Pamphlets, The Life of Friedrich Schiller, and Critical and Miscellaneous Essays.
The following passage was selected from one of his works:
"The Arabs, Muhammad 'alaihis-salam', and his age: Before the advent of Muhammad 'alaihis-salam', (the Arabs were in such a state that) if a big piece of fire spurted out at the place where the Arabs lived, it would have disappeared on the dry sand without leaving any traces behind itself. But after the advent of Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' that desert of dry sand turned into, as it were, a barrel of gunpowder. From Delhi to Granada, everywhere became rapidly rising flames. This great person was, so to speak, lightning, and all the people around him became explosives catching fire from him."
From his conference:
"As you read the Qur'an al-karim, you will presently realize that it is not an ordinary tome of literature. The Qur'an al-karim is a work of art that springs from a heart and instantly penetrates all the other hearts. All the other works of art are quite dull when compared with this tremendous masterpiece. The most striking characteristic of the Qur'an al-karim is that it is a truthful and excellent guide. To me, this is the greatest merit of Qur'an al-karim. And it is this merit that begets other merits."
From his memoirs of a trip:
"In Germany I told my friend Goethe about the facts I had gathered concerning Islam and added my personal reflections on the subject. After listening to me with attention, he said, 'If that is Islam, we are all Muslims.' "
MAHATMA GANDHI (Mohandas Karam-chand): Gandhi (1285 [C.E. 1869]-1367 [C.E. 1948]) descends from a West Indian Christian family. His father was the chief ecclesiastic of the city of Porbtandar, and he was very rich. Gandhi was born in the city of Porbtandar. He went to Britain for his high school education. After completing his education he went back to India. In 1893 he was sent to South Africa by an Indian firm. Upon seeing the heavy conditions under which the Indians working there were and the utterly inhumane treatment they were being subjected to, he decided to put up a struggle for the betterment of their political rights. He dedicated himself to the Indian people. As he was conducting a vigorous campaign against the South African government for the protection of the Indians' rights, he was arrested and imprisoned. Yet he was too undaunted to give up struggle. He stayed in Africa till 1914. Then, quitting his perfectly lucrative job there, he returned to India to carry on his struggle. He waged a struggle in cooperation with the Indian Muslims Unity, which Muslims had established in 1906 for the liberation of India. All his personal property and his father's property he spent for the promotion of this cause.
When he heard that the British were going to launch a second operation of violence and cruelty similar to the one they had perpetrated in the state of Pencap in 1274 [A.D. 1858], he cooperated with the Muslims, induced his friends to withdraw from the civil service, and waged a silent protest and a passive resistance. By wrapping a white piece of cloth around his naked body and contenting himself with the milk of a goat which he continuously kept with him, he carried over his passive resistance. The first reaction on the part of the British was to laugh at him. It did not take them long, however, to see with astonishment and dismay that this man, who believed his own ideals with all his heart and who was ready to sacrifice all his existence with alacrity for the sake of his country, was with the entire India in tow and resounding with his speechless struggle. Imprisoning him proved to no avail. Gandhi's efforts resulted in India's attaining its independence. The Hindus gave him the name 'Mahatma', which lexically means 'blessed'.
Gandhi studied the Islamic religion and Qur'an al-karim with meticulous attention and finally found himself a sincere admirer of Islam. The following is his observation concerning this subject:
"Muslims have never indulged themselves in bigotry even in times of greatest grandeur and victory. Islam enjoins an admiration for the Creator of the World and His works. As the West was in a dreadful darkness, the dazzling star of Islam shining in the East brought light, peace and relief to the suffering world. The Islamic religion is not a mendacious religion. When the Hindus study this religion with due respect, they, too, will feel the same sympathy as I do for Islam. I have read the books telling about the life-style of the Prophet of Islam and of those who were close to him. These books generated profound interest in me, so much so that when I finished reading them I regretted there being no more of them. I have arrived at the conclusion that Islam's spreading rapidly was not by the sword. On the contrary, it was primarily owing to its simplicity, logicality, its Prophet's great modesty, his trueness to his promises and his unlimited faithfulness towards every Muslim that many people willingly accepted Islam.
"Islam has abrogated monastic life. In Islam there is no one to intervene between Allahu ta'ala and His born slave. Islam is a religion that commands social justice from the outset. There is not an institution between the Creator and the created. Anyone who reads Qur'an al-karim, [i.e. its explanations and books written by Islamic scholars], will learn the commandments of Allahu ta'ala and will obey Him. There is no obstruction between Allahu ta'ala and him in this respect. Whereas many ineluctable changes were made in Christianity on account of its shortcomings, Islam has not undergone any alterations, and it preserves its pristine purity. Christianity lacks democratic spirit. The need to equip that religion with a democratic aspect has necessitated an increase in the Christians' national zeal and the concomitant reforms."
Prof. ERNEST RENAN: Now let us make mention of a French man of ideas: Ernest Renan was born in 1239 [C.E. 1923] in the Treguier city of France. His father was a captain. He was five years old when he lost his father. He was raised by his mother and by his elder sister. Because his mother wanted him to be a man of religion, he was sent to the church college in his hometown. Here he was given an efficient religious education. His strong interest in the oriental languages won him a full command of the Arabic, Hebrew and Syrian languages. Later he entered the university, where he studied philosophy. As he made progress in educational areas and carried on very minute comparative studies on the German philosophy and the oriental literature, he observed some flaws in Christianity. By the time he was graduated from the university in 1848, at the age of twenty-five, he was entirely defiant towards the Christian religion, and he compiled his thoughts in his book titled 'The Future of Knowledge'. Yet, because the book was of a rebellious nature, no printhouse dared to print it, and it was only forty years later, in 1890, that the book was printed.
Renan's primary objection was against the belief that Isa 'alaihis-salam' was the 'Son of God'. When he was appointed as a professor of philosophy in the university of Versailles, he began to gradually explain his thoughts on this subject. However, it was not till after he was appointed as a professor of the Hebrew language for the university of College de France that he voiced his most vigorous protest. By the time he finished his first class he had had the courage to say, "Isa 'alaihis-salam' was a respectable human being superior to the other human beings. Yet he was never the son of Allahu ta'ala." This statement had the effect of a bomb. All the Catholics, and especially the Pope, rose up. The Pope officially excommunicated Renan before the entire world. The French government had to dismiss him from office. Yet the world was already resounding with Renan's statements. Great numbers of people sided with him. He wrote books, such as 'Essays on the History of Religions', 'Studies on Criticism and Morals', 'Discourses on Philosophy' and 'Life of Jesus', and his books sold like hot cakes. Upon this the French Academy accepted him as a member (in 1878). Also, the French government invited him back to office and appointed him as the director of college de France.
Renan observed Isa 'alaihis-salam' as a human being in his work 'Life of Jesus'. According to Renan, "Isa 'alaihis-salam' is a human being like us. His mother Meryem (Mary) was betrothed to a carpenter named Yusuf (Joseph). Isa 'alaihis-salam' was a superior human being, so much so that, the statements that he made when he was only a small child were a source of astonishment for many a scholar. Allahu ta'ala deemed him as worthy of prophethood and gave him this duty. Isa 'alaihis-salam' never said that he was the 'Son of God'. This is a slander fabricated by priests."
The contention between Catholic priests and Renan continued for a long time. While the Catholics accused him of blasphemy, he in his turn indicted them for their mendacity and hypocrisy. Renan was saying, "The real Nazarani religion is based on the belief that Allahu ta'ala is one and that Isa 'alaihis-salam' is only a human being and a prophet." Before Renan had died, he had prepared a written will enjoining from a religious ceremony in the church and prohibiting priests from attending his funeral procession. So, when he died in 1892, a crowded congregation containing only friends who loved him and people who admired him attended his funeral procession.
LAMARTINE (Alphonso Marie Louis de): One of France's universally known poets and statesmen, Lamartine (1204 [C.E. 1790]-1285 [C.E. 1869]) made official journeys through Europe and America, which gave him the opportunity to have been to Turkey, in the time of Sultan Abd-ul-majid Khan. He was admitted in an utterly friendly manner by the Padishah (Ottoman Emperor), and was also presented with a farm within the state of Aydin, (which is in the western part of Turkey). See what he says about Muhammad 'alaihis-salam' in his book Histoire de Turquie (History of Turkey):
"Was Muhammad 'sall-Allahu ta'ala alaihi wa sallam' a false prophet? We cannot think so after studying his works and history. For false prophethood means hypocrisy. As falsehood does not have the power of trueness, likewise hypocrisy does not have convincing capacity.
"In mechanics the range of something thrown depends on the power of the thrust. By the same token, the power of a certain source of spiritual inspiration is assessed with the work it accomplishes. A religion, (i.e. Islam), which has carried so heavy a burden, which has spread to such distances, and which has maintained its full power for such a long time, cannot be a lie. It has to be genuine and convincing. Muhammad's 'alaihis-salam' life; his efforts; his courage in attacking and destroying the superstitions and idols in his country; his bravery and valor in standing against the fury of a fire-worshiping nation; his thirteen year endurance to the various attacks, insults and persecutions inflicted on him in Mecca, among his own citizens; his migration to Medina; his incessant encouragements, preaches and admonitions; the holy wars he fought against overwhelmingly superior enemy forces; his spirit for victory; the superhuman confidence he felt at times of greatest afflictions; the patience and trust he displayed even in victory; the determination he showed in convincing others; his endless devotion in worships; his sacred communings with Allahu ta'ala; his death, and the continuation of his fame, honor and victories after his death; all these factual events (and many others untold) indicate that he was by no means a liar, but, on the contrary, an owner of great belief 'sall-Allahu ta'ala alaihi wa sallam'.
"It was this belief and this trust in his Creator that made him put forward a two-staged credo: The first stage consisted of the belief that 'there is one eternal being, who is Allah;' and the second stage inculcated that 'idols are not gods.' In the first stage he informed the Arabs about the existence of Allahu ta'ala, who is one and whom they had not known until that time; and in the second stage he shook from their hands the idols which they had looked on as gods until that time. In short, at a single stroke with the sword he broke the false gods and idols and replaced them with the belief in 'One Allah'.
"This is Muhammad 'alaihis-salam', the philosopher, the orator, the Prophet, the law-giver, the warrior, the enchanter of human thoughts, the maker of new principles of belief, the great man who established twenty gigantic world empires and one great Islamic empire and civilization 'sall-Allahu ta'ala alaihi wa sallam'.
"Let all the criteria used by humanity for the judgement and evaluation of greatness be applied. Will anyone be found superior to him? Impossible." 'sall-Allahu ta'ala alaihi wa sallam'.
I wish to free myself from fancies and whims;
My eccentric nafs will not leave me alone.
I wish to free what is good from the bad;
My eccentric nafs [1] will not leave me alone.
I wish to discipline my essence;
I wish to know what's good for me, 'n what's bad;
I wish to come to my senses;
My eccentric nafs will not leave me alone.
FOOTNOTES 1. Nafs is a malignant force in human nature. It is recalcitrant, stupid, and evil. It always urges man to behave against the commandments of Allahu ta'ala. It is the only creature whose all wishes are against itself.
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Post by jerryspringer on Dec 23, 2007 16:43:07 GMT -5
You will always have people say positive things about other other things. Just how many westerners have not hailed Buddism? If those people were so in-love with Islam, they could have converted.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 23, 2007 21:59:00 GMT -5
Or Napoleon also had designs on conquering the Islamic lands after taking Russia and wanted to leave an impression in search of possible allies and also to make his potential future rule more easily 'digestible'.
Certainly he liked some features (as Christianity and Islam are both Abrahamic religions thus closely mutually related) but overall he belonged to the same class that produced more extreme enlightenment product such as anti-abrahamic Jacobins.
He was essentially a man who felt affinity to Roman past and wanted to restore Roman Empire (hence the term Emperor he gave himself).
I doubt he had any strong teste for anything that was Abrahamic.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 23, 2007 22:03:22 GMT -5
Egyptian expedition In March 1798, Bonaparte proposed a military expedition to seize Egypt, then a province of the Ottoman Empire, seeking to protect French trade interests and undermine Britain's access to India. The Directory, although troubled by the scope and cost of the enterprise, readily agreed to the plan in order to remove the popular general from the center of power. In May 1798, Bonaparte was elected a member of the French Academy of Sciences. His Egyptian expedition included a group of 167 scientists: mathematicians, naturalists, chemists and geodesers among them.[8] One of their discoveries was the Rosetta Stone. This deployment of intellectual resources is considered by some an indication of Bonaparte's devotion to the principles of the Enlightenment, and by others as a masterstroke of propaganda, obfuscating the true imperialist motives of the invasion. In a largely unsuccessful effort to gain the support of the Egyptian populace, Bonaparte also issued proclamations casting himself as a liberator of the people from Ottoman oppression, and praising the precepts of Islam.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_I_of_France#Egyptian_expedition
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 23, 2007 22:13:35 GMT -5
Napoleon an admirer of Islam?
or
Napoleon an admirer of the idea of assuming control of Egypt?
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Post by yahadj on Dec 24, 2007 0:42:05 GMT -5
Well, after all, who would expect a sincere reaction from a butcherer like Napoleon? Of course, he lied, he lied like a gipsy. It is common strategy of most Western politics led by their "superior" collonialist mentality! Imperialistts would sell their mothers so they can make a few more bucks... Actually, we Muslims don't need any admirers. People who are not sure about their stance need to be comforted by other people with a few good words about their decision. Well, that is not the case with us. We have chosen Islam long time before any of those Western "wise men" would "admire" our decision.
Thus, "My religion to me, your religion to you." as Kur'an says...
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Post by depletedreasons on Dec 24, 2007 3:02:20 GMT -5
I do not think that he sympathized Islam. In fact, he ordered the massacre of the several thousand Ottoman (Turks/Circassians) soldiers/officers/administrators who surrendered to his forces in Egypt. He was the prototype of the European pioneers like Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Churchill, Quisling, Laval, Sarkozy, Merkel, De Gaulle, Chirac, Thatcher, Blair, King Leopard, L. George, Milosevic, Papadopoulos, General Franco, Queen Victoria, and many others I can not list here.
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Post by jerryspringer on Dec 24, 2007 10:25:33 GMT -5
Or Napoleon also had designs on conquering the Islamic lands after taking Russia and wanted to leave an impression in search of possible allies and also to make his potential future rule more easily 'digestible'. Yep, and in fact he had forged a good plan to do that. He wanted to turn the Romanian provinces into a new Dacian kingdom and thus gain a strong ally in southeastern Europe. You could list Mehmed II, Jenny. And Jenny, you're a Tatar. Skip us the moral talk. You guys invented wickedness.
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Post by depletedreasons on Dec 24, 2007 12:35:49 GMT -5
You could list Mehmed II, Jenny. And Jenny, you're a Tatar. Skip us the moral talk. You guys invented wickedness. Dear Jerry, Mehmed II lived in the 15th Century, not in the 19th one. Perhaps Tatar is the name you like to use, but I am mainly a Karachay-Balkar, a descendant of Cumans, Volga Bolgars and Alans.
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Post by jerryspringer on Dec 25, 2007 4:39:17 GMT -5
Okay, Mehmed is excused, because he lived in the 15th century. Napoleon is not, because he lived in the 18th century, which obliged him to live up to a higher standard. If you say so, Jenny.
Alans...I thought they were Persians. You ain't no Alan. You're a Tatar...a devil. Sometimes you like to brag about having blonde hair. A wolf in sheep clothes is still a wofl. You must want to be a wolf. The wolf and the eagle is your religion, or something.
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Post by depletedreasons on Dec 25, 2007 8:22:03 GMT -5
Okay, Mehmed is excused, because he lived in the 15th century. Napoleon is not, because he lived in the 18th century, which obliged him to live up to a higher standard. If you say so, Jenny. Napoleon lived in the 18th and 19th Century, and in my humble opinion (a concept you are strangely unaware), it would be accurate to consider him as a 19th Century man. The origins of the Alans are quite a debate. As you might know most Western/European historians also like to call the Scythians as the Iranian peoples even though anybody with bits of brain cells would comprehend that the Scythians were some confederation of tribes derived from different ethnic make ups. In my opinion, Alans were one of the Turkic tribes like some others, such as the Bolgars and Cumans. By the way, I never said that I have blonde hair, Jerry. I have light brown hair and I have hazel-green eyes. When I travel abroad, people usually think that I am some Hungarian, Bulgarian, Polish or Russian. Of course, I am not from Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia or Poland, but from Caucasus like my forefathers. Ringing any bells, Jerry? ;D Finally, I am not a wolf, but some people believe that I am a serpent. In my humble opinion, I am only human, flesh and blood I am made.
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Post by meltdown711 on Dec 25, 2007 15:06:55 GMT -5
The Roman description of the look of the Alans no way resembles any Turkic peoples, they actually have had very fair hair(meaning blondish hair). They are not all that debated, the Alans and the Sarmatians are testified as being Iranian speaking. The name Alans in it self is a curruption of what they called themselves, which was an Iranic word...
In fact, an association is made between the Alans and modern Ossentians.
There is really no(although an article or two might pop up that academia doesnt really see anything groundbreaking in) dispute here, its just Pan-Turkisits trying to fight everybody else.
The problem is not whether the Scythians were intermixed, but that the Greeks and Romans intermixed them by applying the term Scythian well beyond the reality. Therefore various other tribes that were not Scythian were grouped up together with them.
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Post by jerryspringer on Dec 25, 2007 15:26:13 GMT -5
It's good to have Melty by your side. I have never heard of the Alans being of a Turkic tribe, either. I always read that they were the successors of the Sarmatians. I hope Jenny is not partially Alan, elsewise I will be forced to partially respect him.
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Post by meltdown711 on Dec 25, 2007 15:39:59 GMT -5
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Post by depletedreasons on Dec 25, 2007 18:11:57 GMT -5
You never heard of it? In my opinion, inscriptions found in certain scripts and languages do not conclude the ethnicity of people using them. Of course, so called Eurocentrists like to envisage the Sarmatians and Scythians as the Iranian speaking peoples. I think, this is rather broad estimation, but not sound science. However, if Scythians and Sarmatians were some Iranian speaking peoples, then the ancient Iranian, Arab, Greek, Roman, Chinese historians could have noticed such "Eurocentric affinity" between the Persian and ‘Scythian’ languages. Instead, those considered the Turks as the descendants of those nomadic tribes. Karachay:
Descendants of local Caucasian tribes settled since the Bronze Age and in-migrated tribes (the Alans, Bulgarians, Kypchaks), traditionally transhumant people.www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Karachayev Zelenchuk inscription
An irrefutable arguments for the hypothesis of Turk-speaking Alans and their leading role in the formation of Karachai-Balkarian people are provided by the so-called "Zelenchuk inscription", dated by XII century, found in the Karachai settlement "Eski-Jurt" (Upper Arkhiz), and the "Alan salutation" quoted by Byzantine poet of XII century Iohannes Ceces. In the Zelenchuk inscription, there are quite discernible common Turk words and terms: "ata jurt"--native land, "belünüb"--separating, "zil"--year; "de"--tell, "Teiri"--the supreme Turk deity Tenhri, "Tsakhirif"--calling, "alan ürtlaga"--to the valley settlements, "bahatar"--hero and so on. In a few words, the inscription tells how a few tribes once gathered and, having called to the god, decided to move to the plain. The inscription points to the disintegration of the tribe union.
In "Alan salutation" as quoted by Iohannes Ceces, there are also easily read Karachai-Balkarian phrases not met at any other people (idiomatic expressions), such as "Oi üiünge!", and such words as "kün"--day, "hosh"--kind, "kaitif"--returning, "katin"--mistress and others. All the other attempts to read these documents, inserting letters absent in them, rearranging words and letters and forcing the text in other ways, did not give anything comforting, except senseless conglomerations of separate words or personal names. The available historical and ethnographic materials as well as linguistic data definitely tell that Alans were a Turk-speaking tribe, being one of the main components in the formation of Balkarians and Karachais. www.geocities.com/karachayli/chapt6.html§ 3. What are the other reasons to recognize Alans (Asses) as Türkic speaking? A 1949 issue of V.I.Abaev monograph ‘Ossetian Language And Folklore’ confirms the hypothesis about Iranian speaking of Alans, in addition to the Scytho-Ossetian etymology, by: 1) text of a Zelenchuk epitaph, carved in the 11 c., and 2) phrases in Alanian language given by the Byzantian writer Ioan Tsets (1110 - 1180). Zelenchuk epigraphic, written in Greek letters, for the first time was deciphered by Vs.F.Miller in the end of the 19 c., on the basis of Ossetian language. His translation reads: ‘Jesus Christ Saint (?) Nikolai Sakhira son Kh...r son Bakatar Bakatai son Anban Anbalan son of adolescent monument (?) (Adolescent Ira) (?)’. This translation by Vs.F.Miller is considered quite satisfactory, he makes only one slightly critical note: ‘ Though name Anbalan we cannot find at Ossetians, it sounds quite Ossetian ‘ [Miller Vs.F., 1893, 115]. V.I.Abaev makes an insignificant change in the text of translation ’Jesus Christ Saint (?) Nikolai Sakhira son Kh...r son Bakatar, Bakatar son Anbalan, Anbalan son Lag – their monument ‘ [Abaev V.I., 1949, 262]. Vs.F.Miller added 8 additional letters to the text in the very beginning of the reading of the Zelenchuk inscription, without which he would not find any Ossetian words whatsoever [Kafoev A.J., 1963, 13]. Following him, all supporters of the Alanian-Ossetian theory, reading the Zelenchuk inscription, always resorted to various manipulations with the letters and words of the inscription [Miziev I.M., 1986, 111-116]. It should be noted that even after the deliberate modifications, the text of the Zelenchuk inscription in Ossetian language remains only a senseless set of personal names and nothing more, but in Karachaevo-Balkarian language it is read precisely and clearly. The words there, certainly, are Türkic. For example, yurt is ‘native land’, Yabgu ‘governor’, yiyip ‘gathered’, ti ‘speak’, zyl ‘year ‘, itiner ‘aspire’, bülünep – ‘separated’, etc. [Laipanov K.T., Miziev I.M., 1993]. In 1990 F.Sh.Fattakhov, having made a critical analysis of the available interpretations of Zelenchuk epitaph, came to a conclusion that the inscription is freely read on the basis of Türkic language. The translation from Türkic language says: ‘Jesus Christ. Name Nicola. If had grown, would not be better to patronize leading yurt. From yurt of Tarbakatai-Alan the child should be made a possessing Khan. Year of Horse’ [Fattakhov F.Sh., 1990, 43-55]. Thus, Alanian epigraphic, found in the land of Karachais and written in the 11 c., is more accurately deciphered through the language of the Karachais ancestors. Hence, Zelenchuk epigraphic cannot serve as a proof of the Iranian speaking of Alans. As to the Alanian phrase of the Byzantian writer Ioan Tsets (1110-1180), kept in the Vatican library in Rome, its deciphering was attempted with the help of the Ossetian language, with various manipulations of the text: ‘corrected’, and rearranged, and even added letters. In the translation of V.I.Abaev the record of Ioan Tsets sounds thus: ‘Good day, my Master, Queen, where from came you? Aren’t you ashamed, my Lady?’ [Abaev V.I., 1949, 245]. A question rises immediately, is such reference to a Lady, a Queen, possible? Apparently, not. The Tsets phrase has such common Türkic words as khos~khosh ‘good, bye’, khotn ‘madam’, kordin ‘saw’, kaitarif ‘returned ‘, oüngnge - the idiom meaning in Balkarian ‘how could it be?’ [Laipanov K.T., Miziev I.M., 1993, 102-103]. [/i] tatar.yuldash.com/eng_175.htmlSpecifics of poetics in the "Scythian text"
In the beginning of the experiment choice fell on the Herodotus story in the book 4, which tells about the message of the "Royal Scythians" to the king of Persians Darius. A resonance of that message is found in Plutarch, who cites a popular among the Alexandrians proverb: "Scythians responded to Persian king Darius, that they wish him grief (to cry)". One of the most well-known "Scythian texts" looks as follows:
"It was repeating frequently until eventually Darius found himself in a difficult position. The Scythian kings, learning about it, sent to Darius a herald with gifts, sending him a bird, a mouse, a frog and five arrows. The Persians asked the messenger what these gifts mean, but he answered, that he was ordered to only to deliver the gifts and reverse as soon as possible. In his words, if the Persians were clever enough, they should understand the meaning of these gifts" (Herodotus, IV, 131). "Hearing it, the Persians collected a council. Darius believed that the Scythians are submitting to his authority and brought him [as a token of humility] the land and water, as the mouse lives in the ground feeding, like a human, of its fruits; the frog lives in the water, the bird most of all is similar [in speed] to a horse, and the arrows mean that the Scythians drop their resistance. Such an opinion stated Darius. Against it spoke Gobry (one of the seven men who overthrew the magician). He explained the meaning of the gifts thus: "If you, the Persians, do not fly to the sky as the birds, or would not hide in the ground as mice, or would not jump into a bog like frogs, you will reverse back, struck by these arrows" (Herodotus, IV, 132).
Below is shown a first attempt of translation, from the ancient Greek in the Ancient Türkic language, of the "Royal Scythians" message to the Persian king Darius, who set out to a war against the Scythian lands. For the translation are taken only those Ancient Türkic words which, as noted above, are recognized by the world science as the genuine Türkic, and present in the written Ancient Türkic sources before the 13th-14th centuries.
The translation of the explanation given by Gobry, into the Ancient Türkic language gave a predicted result. The analysis of the translation showed that all first syllables of the words belong to the "Scythian word-formation module". Moreover, it turned out that the first syllables of all the words of the text in the translation into the Ancient Türkic language came from the "Scythian word-formation module", as a derivative of the name Kolaksai. In this translation, consisting of 17 words, are 6 variations of the root components:
qal (8 times), qar (5 times), qur (l time), kül (1 time), çül (1 time), çur (1 time).
The text of the "Royal Scythians" message to the Persian king Darius in the explanatory of Gobry, in the Ancient Türkic language looks as follows:
Qali, Qali, qarğa qahqa qal ı masanız, Qali, qaraqu qarima küliməsəniz, Qali, qurbağa çülimənə qalimasaniz, Qalti, çuramlarla qartlanmiş qarşibolmassiniz.
This Scythian message, in translation from the ancient Greek language in the Ancient Türkic, eloquently confirms the forecast about a detection as a first or root component, of the "Scythian word-formation modules". Translation clearly shows the system of the Scythian poetry-forming, and its poetic, lexical and, the most important, logical unity with the Türkic language traditions, Türkic legends, and in particular with the traditions of the known ancient Türkic texts.s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/10_History/Djagfar_Tarihi/Volume3/DjagfarTarihiV3P6En-1.htm
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Post by meltdown711 on Dec 25, 2007 18:19:21 GMT -5
I gave you a book, a major study of the people. More where that came from... and what do you respond with? A couple of Pan-Turanic websites. Sarmatian are well known to have been Iranic(the very name Sarmatian has meaning in old Iranic). However, like most steppe tribes, they did carry a multi-ethnic approach when they moved. So yea, proto-Turkic tribes could probably be found amongst the Scythians, along with proto-Slavic. Turks lived at the edge of the Scythian lands; therefore Chinese would have associated the rest with the people they cam into most contact with. Similarly, Europeans applied the name Scythian well beyond it ethnic limit. At times, they even applied to it to people who were not Scythians but happened to have entered Europe via Scythian lands, or moved into Scythian territory(hence Goths are also called Scythians sometimes). The Byzantines continued applying this term, whether the people were Magyars, Avars, Bulgars, etc. Alans is considered to be a derivative of the older IE term "Aryan", which was associated with either a priestly class or some type of nobility(hence the Greek Aristocracy). There are a number of Iranic tribes that bore similar names. And the Alans moved in from the Caucasus, Turkic tribes did not enter these areas until far later But then I could be wrong, wicked and genocidal Europeans have a habit of complete destroying true history with their detailed archeology and incredible historiography methods... it doesnt compare to nationalist oriented works such as the ones you listed.
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Post by depletedreasons on Dec 25, 2007 18:30:35 GMT -5
I do not agree anything you say. In my humble opinion, the Scythian-Iranian theory is nothing but one big Eurocentric flaw.
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