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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 19, 2008 17:17:56 GMT -5
That would be a replica of memories. The true character of the person in question would remain in the original brain.
As for religion, if we can exist, then so can a supreme being. Or several supreme beings. That's the easy part to imagine. The hard part comes when trying to convince yourself that that supreme being would be concerned about our continuity in an afterlife.
I think the biggest flaws of monothestic religions lies in the concept of believing in their respective god. I don't see how, by merely believing in god, makes you a better person than others who don't believe. This was obviously implemented so that the religion in question could ensure its existence, expansion, and having the means to compete with other religions.
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Post by yahadj on Jan 19, 2008 18:22:15 GMT -5
Merely believing in God won't make you better person unless you accompany that with good deeds and solidarity with those who need help. That I believe undobtedly can make you a better person that would be appreciated by all people around you.
Believing is the first step. It is preconditioning for the countless other steps to follow. It needs to translate into practice- which is increase the moral values of the individual, who then will compete with other people for better deeds. The most valued man in Islam is the one who is beneficial to others- as our prophet said. That is all Islam about. Believe and do good deeds. To make it easy for us, Kur'an tells us what is good and bad, as well. So simple...
Once humans started to crack the yoke of ignorance with the help of science It was kind of expected for the weak human nature to overstate his own role and power and start believeing in superior role of humans in the nature, overshadowing God. They simply tried to omit God in any equation. The light of knowledge made them think it was all religion which brought them to darkness. Not realizing that the religion they have witnessed was deeply corrupted deviation from the real religion.
That overreaction lead to search for "better" human intellect-made moral and social ideologies- like nationaism, fascism and communism. But soon it was understood that the level of human intellect is far from being able to create better social harmony. Those systems collapsed one after another and their authors burried in the dusty pages of the history.
A new age is coming. An era of ultimate understanding- reaching to God through the knowledge - through science and re-descovering the real religion.
The word of Allah will pevail!
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Post by constantinious on Jan 19, 2008 18:36:35 GMT -5
true.but then again you presume that brain cells,would be replace as an collective entity.most likely would be partial made at gradual forms. or regeneration of cells.
thats also a irrational loop.if we exist then god must exist so we can exist,basically stamping on the infinite of time. well if god exist,then infinite still there. the difference is that you place your believe on an out of reason explanation of infinite.either you believe in god or not,believe in infinite is granted. one of the weakest argument of deists: A create of mythological explanation about infinite.personally i like the tooth fairy story better... B it doenst answer where god originate,other than vague argument.in existent since ever.a contradicting argument may i say, you cant deny infinite of time spam by arguing of an infinite creator.
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Post by yahadj on Jan 19, 2008 18:51:48 GMT -5
'A you don't know.you believe. knowledge is science.science is evolution.evolution contradicts religion. Baby boy, those are cliches I used to use. Too boring... You were told what to believe in your modern school system." sugar boo,evolution is science. you can bang your head on the walls all day long still evolution is a science.not a scientific hypothesis ,science. Well yeah, science's main principle is that it is refutable, it doesn't hold to its claims forever. It is not loyal to what it used to say some 50, 10 or even 2 years ago. As soon as it find something new gets just rid of the old one. So science is a dynamic process, it a search for better understanding of nature and it doean't claim absolute correctness. There is always statisctics involved. It can claims probabilities and possibilities. Suspicion is the driving force. But you seem to be conviced with everything it offers. As a close follower of the medical science I can tell you that I got dissapointed so many times by our scientific "improvements", for the failures of some of them we had to pay with the lifes of so many innocent people. So I am not blindly buying everything offered by science whitout making carefull research. In that respect I am more scientific than you. We have to be cautious when we interpret the findings of science. Not everything is straight forward all the time. Science searches for the principles of nature. It tries to get the best possible picture of it. I think currently we are still very far from understading many things. We are still not able to understand even how the thinking process works in the brain. The human brain is still a big mistery. But for some reason we like overestimate our knowledge. We think we are supermen. I just say chill out. Not everything is science and needs to be science. You still need to live this life according to some goals and experince some emotions. Not because science directs you. But because that is your personal experience and chance for personal contribution in this world. Science at the end can just clone you, but can clone won't be you. It would have your genes but not your life experience and emotions. We need to think more deeply in to the matter of things.
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Post by constantinious on Jan 19, 2008 18:52:28 GMT -5
no need for god for that.actually god is quite irrelevant to goodness charity ans solidarity.most certainly has nothing to do with religious pious islamist.
lets not talk about the prophets message.one could argue that jesus message was solid morally.non can claim that for Mohamed a man that preached murder,violence,vengeance,sexism,feudalism,oppression and coercion. sorry boo,but values as solidarity and humanism has roots other than suppernatural: A psychological profile both individual and collective B human genes.human as many other mammals(almost all) are collectivist and communal animals.the relay upon each other to survive.nature and natural selection and evolution created the genes necessary for species to survive.amongst them is altruism(mother instinct is the best example),and solidarity( animals living in communal lifestyle dependent upon each other).human genes are essential the natural truth behind our actions.some we suppress other we magnify.
quran say good and the next verse it reverse it by an opposite command.quran is as imperfect as a every othermedieval society could be.
take a deep breath here.....
really now,better look again outside your window towards your local sineplex..
you are quite ambitious against the evidence of stating otherwise.. next stop should be UAE
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Post by yahadj on Jan 20, 2008 2:37:06 GMT -5
Again cliches cliches. Obviously I can't argue with a blind man about the beauty of a sight. Because simply he can't see it. And it is not fair for him, too. That is not totaly his fault. I am not going to spent my time to prove things like my prophet was better than yours or so. Simply because in our belief all of them received the message of God and are kind of equal in that respect. But all of them are humans like you and me. So was Jesus, Moses and Mohammed. It goes all the way back to Ibrahim, Noah, Lot and Adam. Many other unmentioned prophets delievered God's message, too. But you need to read more about Mohammed. You got it all wrong. If you are so lazy you can start watching some movies- for example "The Message" might be a good start. I see you are very much amazed by the life of animals, too. You see similarities with humans. Well baby, the source is the same. The creator apllied similar rules for most the living creatures. Not a surprise for me. Obviously for you. ;D Again I am impressed from your broad (!) knowledge on Qur'an and Islam. But I don't agree with your comments. I would encourage you to give references, which is more credible way of discussion. Well, simply it is the individual itself that should look for the truth in this life. Those who don't care or are badly deviated from searching the truth can't find their way and Allah won't make it easy for them. I wish you keep looking for the truth. Don't be discouraged and opressed by the official dogmas of materialism. Science is a must. It helps people to serve other people. It is a commandment and blessing of God. But simply put, means don't replace the ultimate goal. Take care brother and keep seeking for the truth! Know what are aginst- read Kuran.
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 20, 2008 5:49:11 GMT -5
It is not a precondition for becoming a better person or being a good person.
That's not what I said. I said that if we can exist, then a supreme being can also exist, because existance is already in place. It may, or it may not; but why would it be extraordinary? That supreme being could be seen as an alien by some and as god by others.
I'm agnostic and I don't believe either can be proven.
If a supreme being exists, then their existence is not dependent whether we can explain their existence, or not. We exist and we can't explain our origin, other than evolution and how the galaxy was formed. Yet we exist.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jan 20, 2008 7:33:52 GMT -5
constantinious is the darling of Richard Dawkins.If you know what I mean.
I appreciate you for giving your view and its explanations,you make good points but I dont like it when you start name calling and ridiculing Yahac.
Its that kind of attitude that gives atheist the image as arrogant,rude,condescending know it alls.
And of course people dont like that.Well,I dont like that.
Also,its elitist like.
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Post by chalkedon on Jan 21, 2008 5:52:59 GMT -5
Constantinos,
Even the ancient greeks had an alter which they dedicated " to the unknown God "
And these were ppl that for the first time in history required " proof " of somethings existance.
Science still cannot explain why we have " emotions " or for that matter why there is " good " vs " evil " or the concept of " moralitiy "
I mean how would that term even pop into our heads ? why do we have a consciense ? Why do we feel like " bad " when we insult or hurt someone else ? If anything we would be just superior animals that would bide by " survival of the fittest "
No wonder in this day and age we have so much decadence and destruction. Just look at the USA...every other day there is some guy going on a killing spree and then taking themselves out. Another guy tosses his kids off a bridge. Another guy dowses his children in gas and them lights em up like a xmas tree. Ppl just dont know what to believe anymore....they are a pathetic and sad society full of emptiness.
For this...i agree with Yahac
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Post by constantinious on Jan 21, 2008 8:55:22 GMT -5
Morality is, at least in practice, on this world, in this life, a cultural thing. Each culture has its own set of morality codes and is taught to children at a very young age either directly by observation and interaction. It is true the humans are social animals and left on their own will form societies as a nateral behavior. These societies will have by necessity there own moral codes. Animal societies from ants and bees to the great apes all have codes of societal behavior that in essence are moral codes. Should an individual of that society, just as in mans, break the moral code, whether learned or instintive, it will be punished even to death.
you are wrong morality can trace its roots to the genetic make up. And feelings come from genes (basic instincts) and education. for example: A love of a mother to a child,deprives from mother instinct and the responsible genes. B altruism,altruism exist in almost all animals,and derived from the responsible genes.animals depends on each other almost in all of their factions.its necessity enable natural selection to code it into genes. thaws enable species to survive. altruism is part of the societal code of all mammals. C good and goodness,an animal cant turn against its on specie.it will weaken its chances of survival.thats why adults animal protect developing animals.and the whole society protects the weaker links. genes regenerate this need of the animals. from those genetically behavioral pattern pop out the first moral scriptures of hommo sapiens. "do not kill" "protect the weakest" "protect children" ...and in essence that value not to attack his own kind.
........ thats just few that pop in my mind right now.education enable people to transfer collective knowledge from one generation to another.our human brain is 2-3 times bigger than the first primitive ancestors.evolution changed our genetic code so humans could ajast .nutrition place also important role to our brain enlargement.with out the daily meat consumption human body wouldn't have the necessary proteins to allow he evolution of the human brain.the evolved human brain ,which is was a more articulated logistical biological device,with better memory capacity has allow to move from animalistic societies ,of the first primitive homoids, to societies of based on culture, education, mechanical and societal evoloution.
all of the above exist in animals also...... your pet dog has conscience of who you are, it feels attachment and gratitude to his owner,it has altruism towards his owner and ready to protect him,when it plays who you has conscience of what can hurt you and uses analogical power and teeth grasp...
religious turkey is worst in almost every part of social behaviour sphere..
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Post by chalkedon on Jan 21, 2008 10:18:18 GMT -5
Constantin... Mother of animal species also eat their young when they are weak...I dont know to many humans that do the same. There is something that differentiates us from animals..and I think it has to do something with the word called " spirituality " I may not know what religion is correct....but there is something definitly out there...or else I am wasting my time sitting here working. I should go rob a bank and take my chances...besides, if there is no punishment for the crime than what the hell ? why should i obey some laws that would hold me back ? what is the purpose of this ? are those ppl that create certain laws better than me ? those are the things that I think about....that and something called a consceince. survival of the fittest
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Post by yahadj on Jan 21, 2008 17:59:33 GMT -5
Well there is something right there, but incomplete. Well yeah you have the genes. And you can find explanations of many things there. Basically our genes encoded in the form of DNA are our sofware programs. Intelligently designed by the all Mighty Programmer. There is no software designed randomly in the casinos of Las Vegas. The whole universe is in harmony. Not a considence.
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 22, 2008 1:36:34 GMT -5
Constantin... Mother of animal species also eat their young when they are weak...I dont know to many humans that do the same. Do you have a source and an example explaining what animals eat their young, which are deemed as weak?
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Post by constantinious on Jan 22, 2008 1:48:33 GMT -5
Well there is something right there, but incomplete. Well yeah you have the genes. And you can find explanations of many things there. Basically our genes encoded in the form of DNA are our sofware programs. Intelligently designed by the all Mighty Programmer. There is no software designed randomly in the casinos of Las Vegas. The whole universe is in harmony. Not a considence.
------------- unfortunately for you all i have said are correct , and its very superficial knowledge of biology and zoology. its not like is some secret scientific program to discover where are origins deprive from........ its academic prospectus lessons 101,and science...... intelligent design is another maskarate camouflage for creationism... and of course mythology .. this time a more ridiculed attempt. you do realize that intelligent design contradicts Islam creationism?
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Post by constantinious on Jan 22, 2008 1:50:14 GMT -5
Mother of animal species also eat their young when they are weak...I dont know to many humans that do the same.
There is something that differentiates us from animals..and I think it has to do something with the word called " spirituality " ---------------- thats a vague empty and rhetorical description........ nothing of the kind exist ,in science give specific examples of spirituality....
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Post by yahadj on Jan 22, 2008 2:18:48 GMT -5
Well there is something right there, but incomplete. Well yeah you have the genes. And you can find explanations of many things there. Basically our genes encoded in the form of DNA are our sofware programs. Intelligently designed by the all Mighty Programmer. There is no software designed randomly in the casinos of Las Vegas. The whole universe is in harmony. Not a considence. ------------- unfortunately for you all i have said are correct , and its very superficial knowledge of biology and zoology. its not like is some secret scientific program to discover where are origins deprive from........ its academic prospectus lessons 101,and science...... intelligent design is another maskarate camouflage for creationism... and of course mythology .. this time a more ridiculed attempt. you do realize that intelligent design contradicts Islam creationism? Well I don't have a problem with creationism and intelligent design. I didn't claim I am against any of them. But I am clearly against unsupervised independant evolution by random and chance only driven by "natural selection". Even if there is some form of evolution it would be driven by God. Allah is the soruce of creation and that is dynamic process. Means Allah keeps creating. But not by trials and failures, but creation comes each time in a perfect fully functional form. Not interconnected by generations of mutants, but as one species extinct the new one comes in its fully functional form. Well, hat has nothing to do with Darwins evolution. This is creation in progress. ============================================ [10.4] To Him is your return, of all (of you); the promise of Allah (made) in truth; surely He begins the creation in the first instance, then He reproduces it, that He may with justice recompense those who believe and do good; and (as for) those who disbelieve, they shall have a drink of hot water and painful punishment because they disbelieved. [10.34] Say: Is there any one among your associates who can bring into existence the creation in the first instance, then reproduce it? Say: Allah brings the creation into existence, then He reproduces it;how are you then turned away? ============================================= BTW, can you tell me exactly where Islam contradicts with intelligent design, so I can gain from your knowledge in that respect? Thanks.
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Post by constantinious on Jan 22, 2008 2:24:33 GMT -5
---------------- hm? i wonder where it contradicts the scientific explanation of the origins of humans
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Post by constantinious on Jan 22, 2008 2:36:42 GMT -5
Well I don't have a problem with creationism and intelligent design. I didn't claim I am against any of them. But I am clearly against unsupervised independant evolution by random and chance only driven by "natural selection". Even if there is some form of evolution it would be driven by God. Allah is the soruce of creation and that is dynamic process. Means Allah keeps creating. But not by trials and failures, but creation comes each time in a perfect fully functional form. Not interconnected by generations of mutants, but as one species extinct the new one comes in its fully functional form. Well, hat has nothing to do with Darwins evolution. This is creation in progress. ------------------- yet once again, evolution is science .what you believe or don't believe , or camouflage your believes, or rationalize and constantly changing your religious dogma interpretations, doesn't have any re valance to science... Darwin's evolution is scientifically laboratory proven, Islamic and other ambrahamic religions mythology are in a constant religious revisionism to adopt to science...... unfortunately for religions, their contradictions with science are fundamental..... some of the rediculus "revelations" of islam.... -flat earth expanding as a carpet........ -earth of the2 east and 2 west -mountains that formed in the middle to keep balance so people don't fall over... -the sun that dives in the madly sea ........ and go on and on and on a child of 5 can project for reasonable explanations at this time and age..
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Post by yahadj on Jan 22, 2008 2:48:32 GMT -5
Science didn't prove the origin of any species. Just hypothesized based on some fossils records. But since science doesn't have a way to test that hypothesis it is totally irrelevant to hold any credibility as a good science. It might be called some far fetched conspiracy theory based on some unexplained fossil remnants from biological history (anthropology). We need to witness that transition from one species to another in order to be clearly able to claim that this was the way evolution worked. But again that is not possible. Then why do we claim it is good science.
Mmm, sorry, no scientific proof on that, yet.
What we find is basically the fossils of fully functional distincs species. Well there are many species being extincted constantly in the nature. Their similarities to some species doesn't prove that they gave origina to others that are still present. It just means they share similar characteristics. And the new species we see are basically the product of constantly creating Allah, the Almighty, as was revealed in Qur'an, who created everything from nothing in the first instance and then has kept repoducing the creation in various forms, known only to him.
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Post by constantinious on Jan 22, 2008 3:10:38 GMT -5
thats a ridiculous statement...... i greatly dispute your physics diploma.... any evolutionary process must be small enough t allow the specie to survive,you cant have an elephant with mate with a dog... genetics has long ago proven that evolution is correct.... thousands upon thousands of new species and genetically modify have been created in laboratories....
earth is flat argument again.....
again you seem not to understand the evolutionary process... any evolutionary modification must be small enough to allow the specie to survive and reproduce....
Islamic creation as quran explicitly states is a one time deal...... last time i read quran stated that earth and kosmos were created in 6 days..
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